Wheel Hell

[James_Douglas]

I am posting this in the event anyone has any ideas.

 

In 2005 when I converted the car from front drum to disc brakes, I had Stockton Wheel make up a set of wheels to clear the 11.6 inch diameter dodge discs and the GM single pot calipers.

 

Thing were fine for a few years then I started to get tires that were loosing air. Nothing was viable, but on a bubble test you could see air leaking out at the wheel rim at the corners of there the wheel centers were welded to the wheel rim.

 

I took the wheel and had my local welder weld up the cracked area and that seemed to solve the problem. Then a few years later other wheels did the same. We took all the wheels off and blasted them and then he welded all of them in corner areas and then wrapped around the front and welded them across the front as well. We figured that now there was enough surface area that the loads would be spread out better.

 

A few more years go by and then a couple of months ago, I get home after a long freeway run and the front is steering odd.  The tire was almost out of air. I get a good light and look and the entire wheel is cracking apart!

 

Stockton Wheel is not even bothering to answer my emails. I guess a registered letter will have to go out.

 

I have been calling or emailing around and none of the so-called custom wheel houses have anything for me.

 

The problem is the large wheel base chassis on the Desoto. With it much larger hubs and the 5x5.5 pattern the only center is a "Ford Genie". Therein lies the problem.

 

The Genie style center uses four "L" shaped flanges that are welded to the wheel rim. I need a 2 inch back space (Distance from the rear of the mounting plate to the rear of the wheel rim).  That puts the "L", cut down so the short side of the "L" is only about 1/8 inch wide now, to the rear of the drop center (the lowest point of the rim). They welded it there which is just where the drop center starts to curve up.

 

They also did not "dress" the corners of the center when they lathed it to size. So the sharp corners were left and it is those corners that dig in and start the cracking.

 

Nobody I can find make a 5x5.5 that is a continuous 360 center to rim fit like I have on my 1949 Desoto with discs.

 

I must have emailed or talked to 20 places. So many say "custom" when in fact they do no such thing.

 

If anyone had any ideas, I am all ears.

 

Thanks, James

 

[greg g]

Aren't GM  pickup wheels 5 x 5.5? I have a set on my Studebaker truck.  It has a Turner disc brake conversion on it with gm calipers.  Not sure what diameter the discs are without looking at the specs. Not sure where the paperwork is but you can check their website for parts used. The one I have are 15 by 6 Rally style.

[Adam H P15 D30]

If the GM van/truck wheels are 5x5.5 I might have a pair of 15x6?" wheels in my stash.  If you're interested, they are free for the taking

[James_Douglas]

Thanks Adam, but the problem is the offset. Nothing stock is close....James.

[James_Douglas]

I just got quoted for Imperial Style wire wheels with the offset....$850 a wheel.

[Frank Elder]

1 hour ago, James_Douglas said:

I just got quoted for Imperial Style wire wheels with the offset....$850 a wheel.

Ouch, quite a conundrum you have Mr. Douglas.....

[DJ194950]

Sure would look great,but.!!

 

There goes money for other things.

 

DJ

[James_Douglas]

12 hours ago, Frank Elder said:

Ouch, quite a conundrum you have Mr. Douglas.....

It is a pain in the butt.

 

We have figured out how to address the problem, but in the end it would cost in the neighborhood of $300 -$400 a wheel.

 

We would have to get some one inch steel plate and cut out some rings that were about 11 inch ID and 11.5 inch OD. Weld those to the wheel rim drop center. Then cut the flanges off of the Genie wheel center so we have a "full round" center that we could weld to the wheel. In addition, due to the design of the center if it was cut back to get rid of the "L" it also would move the weld point from the edge to center of rim drop center line. It would them be welded 360 degrees.

 

A real "Wheel Wright" or custom wheel shop could in fact do it if they wanted to...but finding someone to do anything really custom is proving to be a problem.

 

[Sam Buchanan]

My experience with this particular topic is way too shallow to offer any advice about wheels.

 

However....for the benefit of readers who may be just beginning their journey with an old vehicle, what James is experiencing is often the case when changes are made to a car's original design. One change requires another, which requires some more stuff to be changed, then more complications ($$$$$$'s) arise and pretty soon things get complicated. Customization is certainly one of our options, but we often see new owners with big dreams who don't realize the cascading nature of going down the custom path.

 

James, hope you get something figured out that is practical and affordable. 

[Dodgeb4ya]

Time to give up...sell the DeSota..?

[Doug&Deb]

I thought some of the aftermarket suppliers offered various widths and backspacing. Wheel Vintiques perhaps?

[ccudahy]

Quote

 

I thought some of the aftermarket suppliers offered various widths and backspacing. Wheel Vintiques perhaps?

What size wheels are you actually looking for? (ex. 15"x7" or 16"x5") We know you need 5x5.5" bolt pattern.

 

Below are pictures of Wheel Vintiques "Smoothies", front and back. Coker also had similar ones and you could get the hub cap nubs toward the hub or away for different style hubcaps.

 

I ran a set of steel "Smoothies" 15" x 7" that had dual bolt circle patterns of 5x5" and 5x5.5" with a custom backspace on a 1995 Ford F-150 (5x5.5" bolt pattern). So, I could run the baby moons. They held up nice. The only thing I would recommend if you do get wheels without vents slots. Cross drill your rotors. I warped 3 sets of front rotors from the heat, on that truck, and they warned me about that problem.

[Sniper]

Something to think about, just tossing it out for you.

 

I am test fitting a set of OEM 17x7.5" rims on my 51.  I want to run 255's all around and in order for it to fit up front I need back spacing similar to what you are looking at.  Wheel spacers are what I have decided might make it work for me.  Not the cheapo round plate with holes in it but bolt on ones.  Similar to teh link.

 

https://customwheeladapters.com/collections/5x5-5-wheel-adapters/products/5x550-to-5x550-wheel-spacer-adapter-thickness-3-4-4?variant=28874298589264

[Loren]

Remember the old Jackman Wheels? We used them on the SAAB 99 race car.

They had flame cut centers welded to rims made by Norris Industries. I still have a set on my Scout ll.

Then there was the Monocoque Wheel Company?

They made spun aluminum wheels which were made in two halves and revetted together. You could have any offset you wanted because they were all custom made. We used them on our SAAB 96 race car because Jackson got bought out by Halibrand and closed down.

If you've ever seen a SAAB 96 bolt pattern you'd know if they can make that they can make anything.

[Frank Gooz]

James,

I will look this weekend. I may have some. I bought them when i found the.

The are a monster 5 On 5 1/2 bolt circle with 9/16 lug bolts. even new wheels will not accommodate the 9 /16 lug bolt.

[Frank Elder]

James,  there used to be a guy on the hamb called Wheel kid I think he makes custom rims.

[HotRodTractor]

Not to come off as callous - but 15 years ago you bought custom wheels that after a few years one started to crack and you had it repaired locally. Then after a few more years the rest started to crack, and again you had them repaired locally. Now 15 years after the initial purchase and much 3rd party welding, you are just now trying to contact the manufacturer? Why? As far as they are concerned there is nothing for them to do, except perhaps sell you a new set. You might have had something the first time you saw a crack, but after all the years and all the welding - they are free and clear. 

[tom'sB2B]

Just a thought, but maybe it would be easier and cheaper to change up your disc brake conversion to allow the use of origin hubs or something similar. I'm running original wheels on a disc conversion from rusty hope. You may have to back up and redo instead of chasing expensive wheels. IMHO

[Los_Control]

Did you ever figure out what bolt pattern you have?

I read earlier you said was cheby disk brakes and 5 on 5.51/2 wheels bolt pattern.

That would be a Ford bolt pattern.

Cheby & large GM had a 5 on 5" bolt pattern.

My 1991 chevy 1/2 ton truck has a 5 on 5" bolt pattern, older cadilacs pontiac, buicks etc ... 1949 dodge B1C had the 5 on 5" bolt pattern.

 

The 5 on 5.5 1/2" was a old Ford wheel bolt pattern. Old cars and 1/2 ton trucks used it from the 30's up into the 1980's or later

 

Just suggesting to clarify what rotors and wheels you have, would not be GM with the bolt pattern you stated.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Los_Control

[kencombs]

It''s surprising how many vehicles used the 5 on 5.5" bolt pattern.  Certain big, early Mopars, Old Fords, Ford pickup, Dodge trucks and vans, Suzuki!!, Diahatsu, Jeep, Mitsubishi  etc.  And many of those from Chrysler corp are late enough to have disk brakes.

 

I'd suggest looking at Mopar vans and pickup wheels from the early 90s to current. 

 

Here is a great site for custom wheel info, even better than most wheel places:

https://www.roadkillcustoms.com/wheel-bolt-pattern-cross-reference/?Make=DODGE&Model=RAM 1/2 TON TRUCK 2WD, 4WD&bp=5 X 5.5&cb=77.8&os=L&c=1

Edited December 12, 2020 by kencombs

[James_Douglas]

On 12/11/2020 at 12:01 PM, HotRodTractor said:

Not to come off as callous - but 15 years ago you bought custom wheels that after a few years one started to crack and you had it repaired locally. Then after a few more years the rest started to crack, and again you had them repaired locally. Now 15 years after the initial purchase and much 3rd party welding, you are just now trying to contact the manufacturer? Why? As far as they are concerned there is nothing for them to do, except perhaps sell you a new set. You might have had something the first time you saw a crack, but after all the years and all the welding - they are free and clear. 

I contacted them at the time. However, the owner of the shop blew his head off with a shotgun. The business sold to a new owner. The shop has been around since the 1880's. I have had them making wheels for me since the 1970's through three different owners.

 

The new owners kept telling me that they did not see the invoice for this particular set. I found the actual invoice and contacted them again and that is when I got the silent treatment.

 

I have the paper trail of conversions going back 15 years. I have not asked them for my money back, not have I asked them for new wheels for free. I have asked them to work with me to come up with a new set of wheels that would solve the problem. It is clear that either their materials or workmanship was defective in this set of wheels.

 

Yes, I should have taken the wheels off the car when it first Happened and told them to make it right. If they did not, then I should have had my Lawyer Sue them in court. Charging them the thousands of dollars for a structural fault analysis firm to back up what was and is obvious. In the end it would have taken several years and it would have cost 10X the cost of the wheels. I would have in the end been made whole and their insurance premiums would go to pay the judgments and all the while all would have had to spend time in court.

 

My mistake for trying to work with them.

 

 

[James_Douglas]

I general guys the problem is the offset and the method of welding the center to the rim. The car is heavy and the centers with the 4 flanges creates too much concentrated stress and causes cracks. It could be the design or it could be the lack of dressing the edges of the metal before welding.

 

As far as I have been able to find, I cannot find a 5x5.5 pattern in a 15 inch wheel that is 5 or 6 inches wide that uses a full contact weld between the two parts.

[kencombs]

If You would consider moving to a 16" wheel and tire 90s-2000s Dodge used the right pattern and 16" where still available in some years

 

Edit:  79-93 Dodge 12t still had 15s available with 5 on 5.5 spacing.

Edited December 13, 2020 by kencombs

[PT81PlymouthPickup]

I recently had a couple of wheels made by "The Wheelsmith" from Corona, California.  They seem knowledgeable and did a nice job.

[James_Douglas]

22 hours ago, PT81PlymouthPickup said:

I recently had a couple of wheels made by "The Wheelsmith" from Corona, California.  They seem knowledgeable and did a nice job.

I wrote them and they said they could not help.