My 1951 Plymouth Concord Barn Find....what have i done?!

[RobertKB]

3 hours ago, Sniper said:

the Plymouth Doctor makes a lot of the sheet metal you might need.

 

http://plydr.tgie-greyhounds.org/

I used Plymouth Doctor and was happy. My floors weren’t great and the top of the rockers were bad. I took a 30 hour mig welding course at the local college so I could do the work myself as I had bought a cheap second hand mig welder. 

 

It's worth it in the end and you can learn a lot of new skills along the way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 11, 2021 by RobertKB

[Booger]

8 hours ago, Logans51 said:

 

Okay... so apparently i reached my limit of "likes" for the day because these responses and help is absolutely overwhelming and amazing.  Thank you all. Special shout out to knuckleharley because holy hell man....that is above and beyond what i was expecting and for you to take the time to write that (all of you) is humbling.  Thank you.

 

UPDATE

 

So yesterday the car was delivered to my families farm house and i got to look at it for the first time not covered in 30years of crap and up against a wall.  Im pretty sure I get why they say dont buy a car in low light, in a barn where you cant see it all, and have no history on it; because it was defiantly a punch in the gut after drinking it all in.  There is definitely rust and more than expected to say the least.  I had a suspicion that the captains side may need a small patch but the drinkers side definitely has the flintstone modification for sure along with the rocker/sill are toasty.  I got hit with the good ol licensee plates from the 70's under a lot of rubber mats but thats what i get for just jumping in.  Plus side i suppose is a few neat old license plates?

 

After seeing that and a few small areas in the trunk that will need some help, i wanted to just wash my hands of it.  Just a blow like that after all the stress of "what the hell am i doing?" to only get hit with that definitely took a toll.  I have never done massive body repair like that so seeing that is scary to say the least.  

 

So with my full day of moping yesterday in the 108 11 degree heat thinking "what the hell am i doing", it was my wife who kept saying "I dont understand why you are so upset.  You wanted a project car right?  Is this not what that means?  Whats the rush? Why dont you teach yourself how do do that work?  I would much rather see this in the garage with no floors for years vs some crap from the 1980s."  I know...she is amazing.

 

So after my wife put me in my place, i think it was decided to go at it one step at a time.  Lets get that engine going and see where we stand.

 

I will have weekends for the next few months to get this thing in "moving condition" so i can get it into my garage at home, so updates will be spread out and i will try and get some pictures soon!  it was just too hot and i was mentally exhausted to do so.

 

 

Just saying. If wifey has your back what could be better?  Take your time. Everyone in here has been up against big projects. Little by little it gets done. Dont every stop learning. Lets go!

[Sam Buchanan]

Eat the elephant one bite at a time.................. ?

[joecoozie]

Don't take this the wrong way BUT.......

 

BEFORE you decide to jump into this project, no matter how enthusiastic you might be, make sure you really,really, really want to tackle it.

Ones enthusiasm can disappear in a short time due to several factors i.e. time/space/money/life etc

 

What I am trying to say is if you think you might not be up to it, despite being encouraged by others, assess the situation BEFORE you start tearing things up and then decide to bail out.

One of the hardest things to sell is a car that has been torn down for repairs, with the good intentions of following through, but then the project gets abandoned. IMO I think potential buyers would rather buy a car that has not been touched and do the work themselves (the way they want it done) rather than buying one that is in pieces with the floors cut out,etc.

Give it serious thought.

Just my opinion. I could be off base.

Joe

 

[knuckleharley]

10 hours ago, Logans51 said:

 

 

 

So with my full day of moping yesterday in the 108 11 degree heat thinking "what the hell am i doing", it was my wife who kept saying "I dont understand why you are so upset.  You wanted a project car right?  Is this not what that means?  Whats the rush? Why dont you teach yourself how do do that work?  I would much rather see this in the garage with no floors for years vs some crap from the 1980s."  I know...she is amazing.

 

 

 

 

Whatever you do,do NOT get rid of THAT woman. You have no idea how rare women like that are. Trust me on this one.

[Logans51]

Still out of likes for the day! 

 

Thank you again all for responding and please do not feel to sugar coat anything or say "sorry if im sounding mean".  Not a fan of kid gloves and I value this places straight opinion greatly.  Its why im posting.

 

Sorry if i was miss leading for some but this is not my first project car "technically" speaking.  My dad an I tackled a few when i was younger (69 mustang and a 55 falcon) along with a few newer cars over the years myself.  I am not someone to back down from a challenge and the, "wash my hands of it" was mainly due to embarrassment on my end at the time i think and thinking bodywork can only be done not mere mortals such as myself.  By no means is there really any investment on my end on this project and going back to what the misses said, why not use this as a chance to learn?  Don't like the thought of failing but hate the thought of not at least giving it a fair shot.  

 

Lets take that tiny elephant bite first with seeing if i can get that old girl to wake up  

 

 

[desoto1939]

Logans51:  Thanks for the update on your experience with past projects.  You have the correct thinking and way to approach this project.  And YES and again Yes, cherish your wife because she is the one that will be standing right behind you on this project.

 

Take your time document everything take pictures, etc.  The members of the forum will always try to provide answers to questions and they are a great group of car enthusists.

 

Rich Hartung

desoto1939@aol.com

[Los_Control]

16 hours ago, Sniper said:

 

Welcome. I might even be home tomorrow.  Now that I said that stuff will hit the fan in Van Horn or some other godforsaken part of west Texas and I'll be on the road.

Looks like a awesome find, cant wait to see more pics after it is cleaned up. Put it in it's best showing condition now will also entice you to keep at it 

 

Be nice to know if the engine turns or is stuck. Maybe by hand turn it one full rotation. Then I would fill the cylinders with oil and let it sit. While you spend a week or two cleaning up the car. Some mmo or 50/50 atf/acetone works well.

The rings tend to stick to the pistons after sitting for a few years. Just the material the rings were made from in that era ... so they do not spin freely or expand conform to the cylinder wall as they should ... Same time these flatheads are famous for the valves to stick open.

When the engine was parked, some valves are in the open position and right where they pass through the valve guide, old oil gums up and now when turn over the engine the spring is not strong enough to pull the valve closed. Just stays open and zero compression.

 

So even though it turns over, soaking in oil will help both rings and valves, make it a happy engine.

So it will help the engine, same time the down side is it will smoke more then a bunch when you do start it. I filled mine a few times and let it sit a week or so and spin the motor then fill again ... some oil is going out the exhaust valve and sits in the muffler. You need to go for a 2 hour drive to burn all the oil out of the exhaust system.

 

On the other hand, some people just start them up and run through a few heat cycles and are fine.

So is only a suggestion. Even if you soak it in oil, you still may have to pull the head and physically move the valves to get them free ... not a huge deal either.

 

Either way just enjoy the journey 

 

[SuperGas61]

Hey, Logan...congrats! I also have a '51 Concord--I have the fastback version, which you can partially see in my avatar. Mine was not in project form, but I've still learned a ton, and I really do love the car--it's different, and people always seem interested in it. I'm still a newbie at these cars myself, but feel free to ask me any and all questions. Definitely pick up a '46 to '54 Plymouth Service Manual--you can find them fairly cheaply in book and/or PDF form on eBay, Amazon and elsewhere. And don't give up before you start! Try to set reasonable upgrade goals for each year--obviously, you can do things as fast as you want, but I've found that setting seemingly easy goals makes the work a lot more satisfying and helps keep discouragement at bay. Good luck!

 

Gary

Edited August 12, 2021 by SuperGas61

[Booger]

3 hours ago, SuperGas61 said:

Hey, Logan...congrats! I also have a '51 Concord--I have the fastback version, which you can partially see in my avatar. Mine was not in project form, but I've still learned a ton, and I really do love the car--it's different, and people always seem interested in it. I'm still a newbie at these cars myself, but feel free to ask me any and all questions. Definitely pick up a '46 to '54 Plymouth Service Manual--you can find them fairly cheaply in book and/or PDF form on eBay, Amazon and elsewhere. And don't give up before you start! Try to set reasonable upgrade goals for each year--obviously, you can do things as fast as you want, but I've found that setting seemingly easy goals makes the work a lot more satisfying and helps keep discouragement at bay. Good luck!

 

Gary

great advice. Concord slowback one of my favorite body styles

[Logans51]

Thanks everyone and the plan for this weekend is to take out the old plugs, adding MMO until it cannot hold anymore, wait a day, add some more, repeat.  Pretty much seems to be the consensus on that being the best idea for now. haha.  Might give the fan a wiggle with the hand but i am not going to try and spin it this weekend just because i am sure it has not moved for quite some time and last thing i want to do is be dead in the water on both bodywork and engine.  I will try and get around to removing a lot of other items like the tank and lines and check on the carb because i can only physically work on it on the weekends for now, so if i can bring some work home with me (like the carb), that will be best.

 

After a good wash, the paint.....or should i say paints is rough.  To our count, it has been redone at least 4 times with the original color being what we can tell Brunswick Blue.  Pretty sure the same color as yours @SuperGas61.  The top layer seriously came off in sheets because it looks like no prep was done before spraying.  There is a lot of surface rust in some areas (which i honestly dont mind) and decent patina, so i think the wife and I decided best way forward for right now is the good ol 0000 SOS.  I will make sure to take some pictures this weekend for everyone to follow along.

 

NEWBIE QUESTION

So the one area i will obviously be working on shortly will be the brakes and need some experts to chime in if possible.  I searched until it hurt but i seem to be running into an opposite problem as everyone else.  Car rolls fine, emergency brake works fine but the brake pedal is sized.  Its like stepping on a rock with no movement at all.  I have not dived into the system to see about sludge build up or possible blockages but i am just wondering if anyone has run across this issue and if you came across this, what would your order of operation be?  I would rather not try and blow the system apart if i can first start eliminating small issues first.

 

[knuckleharley]

On 8/11/2021 at 10:17 AM, Logans51 said:

On 8/13/2021 at 8:18 AM, Logans51 said:

 

So the one area i will obviously be working on shortly will be the brakes and need some experts to chime in if possible.  I searched until it hurt but i seem to be running into an opposite problem as everyone else.  Car rolls fine, emergency brake works fine but the brake pedal is sized.  Its like stepping on a rock with no movement at all.  I have not dived into the system to see about sludge build up or possible blockages but i am just wondering if anyone has run across this issue and if you came across this, what would your order of operation be?  I would rather not try and blow the system apart if i can first start eliminating small issues first.

 

BTW,there is one thing I REALLY want to emphatize. Do NOT just throw away your old wheel cylinders or master cylinder. If the company you buy yours from doesn't offer a core fee discount,go ahead and just GIVE them to the company. If people just keep selling this stuff for scrap prices or just throwing them away,pretty soon there won't BE any cores for them or other companies to rebuild and sell. Don't get all selfish over a few bucks. Think of the future.

 

 

On 8/11/2021 at 10:17 AM, Logans51 said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Rust. Don't even bother trying to rebuild it or the wheel cylinders.Take it off and buy a new one,and see if your core is worth anything as a core trade in.

 

If your MC has that much rust in it,go ahead and stop off at a auto parts store and buy enough copper-nickel brake line to plumb the whole car,and go ahead and buy new brake hoses and wheel cylinders.Believe it or not,but you can usually buy brand new wheel cylinders cheaper than you can buy a kit to rebuild yours. Once again,ask the vendor if he wants your old ones as cores.

 

The ONLY way to rebuild a brake system in an old car is to rebuild the whole damn thing while you are at it. If you don't need new brake shoes or springs,use the ones you have. They are the only items in a old brake system that can be reused. 

 

While it is apart,check your drums for grooves and if there are any,take them to a brake shop and have them turned. Clean your wheel bearings and check them for wear and if they are good,repack them using good grease. Replace the grease seals,also. You will be sorry if you don't.

Edited August 15, 2021 by knuckleharley

[Sam Buchanan]

1 hour ago, knuckleharley said:

 The ONLY way to rebuild a brake system in an old car is to rebuild the whole damn thing while you are at it.

 

Good advice. I started out replacing fuel and brake parts piece-meal but would have been far ahead (and saved a ton of shipping fees!) if I had just ripped out the entire brake and fuel systems and replaced everything first time around since it all got replaced eventually. Save all the old parts so you can remember where everything goes and take a bunch of photos before removing anything.

 

Like the old Fram commercial used to say...."You can pay me now or pay me later".  ?

Edited August 13, 2021 by Sam Buchanan

[Logans51]

1 hour ago, knuckleharley said:

 Rust. Don't even bother trying to rebuild it or the wheel cylinders.Take it off and buy a new one,and see if your core is worth anything as a core trade in.

 

If your MC has that much rust in it,go ahead and stop off at a auto parts store and buy enough copper-nickel brake line to plumb the whole car,and go ahead and buy new brake hoses and wheel cylinders.Believe it or not,but you can usually buy brand new wheel cylinders cheaper than you can buy a kit to rebuild yours. Once again,ask the vendor if he wants your old ones as cores.

 

The ONLY way to rebuild a brake system in an old car is to rebuild the whole damn thing while you are at it. If you don't need new brake shoes or springs,use the ones you have. They are the only items in a old brake system that can be reused. 

 

While it is apart,check your drums for grooves and if there are any,take them to a brake shop and have them turned. Clean your wheel bearings and check them for wear and if they are good,repack them using good grease. Replace the grease seals,also. You will be sorry if you don't.

 

Thanks @knuckleharley! adding another item to the "destroyed by rust" list. haha.  luckily the most she will be moving for a while will be off a trailer into a garage once i can get her home, so a full rebuild was on my list.  was hoping for better news but was expecting that.

[Sniper]

Inline tube makes a brake line set for the Concord, in steel or stainless.  If you don;t feel like making your own.  PUB5101

 

https://www.inlinetube.com/collections/all/?searchkeyword=PUB5101

[Ash84]

That is a pretty cool find, me and my wife had inherited a 1950  Plymouth delux from her father. Almost same story only it had been in his barn for 30 years but had it running 7 years ago just for a day or two then let it sit. I had to clean the points in it to get running, then whent on test drive and found out pretty quick no brakes. Replaced the master cylinder and had it on the rd today. I do agree this is a very good site I got alot help from just with those two problems. It is hard to find someone personal that knows about these cars so you are about to learn some cool stuff. One thing I like about this time frame is the Chevys, dodge and Plymouth are pretty close to the same set up so even if you can't find info for your car you can still replicate it with on like it. 

[Logans51]

SMALL UPDATE

 

Has it really been a month?! Ooof....

 

So not much progress with family life taking over most everything at the moment.  Still up in the air as to keep or part ways with her because my son is due to arrive in a few short weeks and I am running out of time to make a final decision if i have the space/time for it. 

 

Sort of have a good news/bad news situation thus far....

 

Bad News

I was able to get the carb off to start a rebuild (because that was frozen solid) and the radiator off to see about getting the engine in the car turning at all.  No luck and pretty sure after looking at the plugs and in the plug holes and overall condition of the carb, its not going to move and will need to be taken out.  Could possibly be why there was an extra engine to begin with.

 

Good News

So I decided to turn my attention to the extra 230 Power Wagon engine and started simple and took off the valve covers to see whats inside.  From the markings, i believe it is out of a 49 but dont hold me to that.  Now, i am no flathead or engine expert by any means but what i saw i could not believe.  Not only after a few days of MMO down the shoots does she turn over fine, but it looks almost brand new in there (see photo).  I tried looking at rebuild videos and pictures of the valves and normally see a lot of build up/gunk in this area but what you are seeing is with no clean up. 

 

Dumb question but is that normally what i should be seeing or is it a strong possibility this has been rebuilt at sometime or just very well taken care of/low mileage?

[Young Ed]

That clean in there I would say certainly it's been overhauled in some manner. 

[Sam Buchanan]

I suspect you have a freshly rebuilt engine. The fact it wasn't in a vehicle probably means it has no mileage. Good score!

Edited September 15, 2021 by Sam Buchanan

[Los_Control]

possible just a valve job was done, very possible is a  rebuilt engine with little or no miles .... I would pull the head while it is  out and inspect the cylinders.

Just in case some moisture got in while sitting over the years. Just clean the cylinders and some oil on the rings.  Certainly worth a gasket set to  protect a new engine.

 

My Uncle gave me a motor like that. The Texaco gas station down the street installed a rebuilt engine in a customers 1950 dodge truck.

The customer never came back to pay for it or pick it up. Mechanic sold truck  with no title to my Uncle for $500 to pay for the engine.

Uncle had a friend who wanted the body, they went in 1/2 on it. Engine sat in  a shed for 25 years and never got used.

The cylinders did need to  be cleaned but they cleaned up easily.

[Dartgame]

I agree pull the head and take a peek. That engine looks like it has not  been run. 

 

I have a 52 business coupe and am most of the way done with it. Since we started building a house earlier this year, work on the coupe has slowed to a snails pace. But I will be back on it once we get moved in later this year.

[Los_Control]

56 minutes ago, Logans51 said:

So not much progress with family life taking over most everything at the moment.  Still up in the air as to keep or part ways with her because my son is due to arrive in a few short weeks and I am running out of time to make a final decision if i have the space/time for it. 

Totally is your decision, Everybody is different. I think for many it is a hobby and fun or relaxing to work on these old cars. Driving them is a bonus.  

There is no race to finish them ...  just having a project & a goal is enough for me.

I am currently taking a break from mine while I catch up on on other adult things. Fix the wife car, maintenance on my daily driver ... home maintenance.

I was planning to get back on to mine by October, now November may be new target date. Depending on the weather, really might be next spring at this point.

While waiting on parts for my wife car, couple weeks ago I was able to buy the toe board and transmission cover I was missing.  So today am prepping them to get into primer and set away for when I get back to the truck .... just 1 more bite out of the elephant.

Honest it is not a race to finish your project. Same time if you are not having fun, maybe you should sell it.

 

Others would rather buy a finished car, and start driving it to meets and social events. They maintain the cars with normal maintenance, a few improvements then in a couple years when time is right, sell it and buy something different to drive. Sometimes I think these guys are the smart ones.  Let someone else do all the hard work, spend the money to build them ... then take a bath when they sell them.                                                                                                                       

                                        

[Logans51]

On 9/15/2021 at 2:30 PM, Los_Control said:

Totally is your decision, Everybody is different. I think for many it is a hobby and fun or relaxing to work on these old cars. Driving them is a bonus.  

There is no race to finish them ...  just having a project & a goal is enough for me.                                                                                                              

                                        

 

Nailed it @Los_Control.  My happy place is in the garage working on something.  Its a weird situation for me but its more about space and distance that is making my decision a hard one.  It would be a lot more relaxing right now if i had more space to store it close to home but those are my issues to solve at the end of the day. haha.

 

QUESTION:
So when i checked the valve springs, i was able to get the head bolts out no problem but that head seems to be on there solid.  Hence why i think if it was rebuilt or NOS, it has not been messed with in quite some time.  I tried giving it a few wacks with a rubber mallet but no luck.  I read on here a few different ways about making a "puller" jig and even black powder but before i go down those routes, any suggestions from easiest to last resort?

[Los_Control]

Yeah distance is a issue. Nice when you can just walk outside and spend 10 min or a day with it. No idea what your distance is ... mine ended up being 1200 miles.

I ended up giving away the project to someone that would keep it out of the scrap yard. I kept the rusty hope brake kit,  the new gas tank. Sadly the new motor went to a  scrapper. Life is what we make of it ... I kept my new parts and shipped to my new house.

 

I once had a pressure plate that was glued to a flywheel with a clutch disk in between ... I tried everything, I put away the plastic mallet and took a 3# sledge to it ... would not budge.

 

What worked was a small 6" scraper that would use for spreading mud on drywall repairs, put it in-between the clutch & flywheel and smacked it with a hammer, it just fell apart with the wedge in it.  I was just amazed a clutch could get this stuck.

 

Same with your head. It is stuck, a small thin knife of sorts used as a wedge on the front? Just make sure is between gasket and block or head.drive it in with a hammer.

The wedge will pop it loose.

A, the lil  drywall tool will  bend before it destroys the surface of the head or block.

B, the head gasket does not seal on the edge, just smooth off any damage that would be impossible to cause with a drywall knife.

C, I would stick a small wedge and use mechanical force as a hammer to drive it ... If needed add a bigger wedge. It will pop off.

 

Any damage would be in a location non critical, all would clean up fine. I doubt you would find any damage. Nobody would ever know.

 

[kencombs]

If the head was  installed with an old-time gasket shellac on both sides it would behave that way very quickly after installation. My Dad love Indian Head brand.   I hated it.  Permatex #1 does that to.