California & The Internal Combustion Engine

[John Rogers]

13 hours ago, The Oil Soup said:

I got out 20+ years ago and pretty sure I'll be able to see the splash from here.

We can get together, order a huge pizza and watch it from our tailgates

                           John 

[Plymouthy Adams]

not nitpicking...but......Is it common to view beneath the cab and running board such as this trucks depicts? I did not have that on my 41 Dodge...nor the '58, the last year for the running board.

[DJ194950]

Well I really doubt that a ban on fuel powered vehicles will be pass here in good  old Ca. but laws  might pass allowing the Ca. DMV that will get about 99% of them off the roads with the charges they will charge to license one!! Only richest person will drive one in Ca. But then with the newer very high taxes on the rich in Ca. has driven many to moving out of state as their permanent residences and only may have a Second home in CA!

The DMV here does NOT need any OK from the legislature to raise fees- which they do often! Unless they are WAY out of line (been done before) 

Been thinking hard about my continued stay in CA!

DJ

Edited September 28, 2017 by DJ194950

[TodFitch]

1 hour ago, DJ194950 said:

Well I really doubt that a ban on fuel powered vehicles will be pass here in good  old Ca. but laws  might pass allowing the Ca. DMV that will get about 99% of them off the roads with the charges they will charge to license one!! Only richest person will drive one in Ca. But then with the newer very high taxes on the rich in Ca. has driven many to moving out of state as their permanent residences and only may have a Second home in CA!

The DMV here does NOT need any OK from the legislature to raise fees- which they do often! Unless they are WAY out of line (been done before) 

Been thinking hard about my continued stay in CA!

DJ

Hmmm. I confess to being a bit compulsive. And one manifestation of that is keeping pretty detailed financial records. Looking at the registration cost on my cars the registration has increased $1/yr total for each car in the last 7 years. That is the registration cost I pay now is only $1 per car more than it was in 2011.

There is another fee listed on the payment which is based on value of the car. Looking at our two newer cars, it seems that goes down each year for the first 10 years and then is stable after that.

The net result is that I've seen no increase in DMV fees for my cars in years. Other costs like insurance, parts, repairs, etc. have gone up but amazingly those prices are largely set by the thrifty private sector and not our rapacious government.

The most recent statistics I've looked at are from 2016. As of last year there is still a net migration into California from other states.

I read about high profile people who leave the state for cost and tax reasons. But my sense of it, having known some pretty rich people when I worked in Silicon Valley, is the number of really rich people leaving due to taxes is very low. This seems to be backed up by studies like this one: http://web.stanford.edu/group/scspi/_media/working_papers/Varner-Young_Millionaire_Migration_in_CA.pdf That study is a few years old so things might have changed but I'd want something more than a sensational news headline to confirm it.

I suspect the middle class is more affected by the higher cost of living here than the really rich but I haven't seen a study that directly looks at that.

Since the census shows a net positive migration in from other states then I have to assume that if large numbers of middle class were leaving then there must be a whole lot of millionaires and poor people migrating in. That seems a bit unlikely but I guess it is possible.

That said, California is a big state and what is true for one part or even the whole as an average is not necessarily true for all individual parts. The Central Valley where you live has been at an economic disadvantage compared to the more urban and/or coastal parts of the state for a while now. So in your area there might well be a net migration out.

[greg g]

Seems that these types of legislation generally grandfather existing things.  Most people buy a car every 8 years or so.  That said, the folks who buy new cars over the intervening 10 years will probably be dumbed down enough to not care what makes the wheels go round.  Gear heads will endeavor to keep what they have.  And the greenies will be partially satisfied, because the classic ICE vehicle will be a small quaint population with occasional use likely will not ruffle their feathers.  

[The Oil Soup]

All that really needs to be done is to eliminate gas stations and that's been going on for years. They used to be at all the major intersections.

[RobertKB]

Don't think it can't or won't happen. Timeline is unrealistic but the world will likely change in ways we can't conceive of presently.

Interesting read. http://www.lfpress.com/2017/09/15/dyer-car-changes-will-reshape-society

 

Edited September 29, 2017 by RobertKB

[ggdad1951]

sadly the day WILL come and I will go down kicking and screaming....but I also hope to be old by that time and more worried about chasing the nurses than driving.

[knuckleharley]

On 9/28/2017 at 9:20 PM, TodFitch said:

I read about high profile people who leave the state for cost and tax reasons. But my sense of it, having known some pretty rich people when I worked in Silicon Valley, is the number of really rich people leaving due to taxes is very low. This seems to be backed up by studies like this one: http://web.stanford.edu/group/scspi/_media/working_papers/Varner-Young_Millionaire_Migration_in_CA.pdf That study is a few years old so things might have changed but I'd want something more than a sensational news headline to confirm it.

I suspect the middle class is more affected by the higher cost of living here than the really rich but I haven't seen a study that directly looks at that.

 

The uber rich,like Buffett and Gates aren't really affected by taxes because they have most of their money in tax shelters. Warren Bubbette has even whined about how his personal secretary pays more taxes than he does as a way to promote leftist "equality",yet it never seems to have occurred to him to pay her more money and to enroll her in one of his tax dodges.

It's ALWAYS the middle classes that pay the majority of the taxes because the rich have tax shelters like trust funds,and the poor don't make enough money to pay taxes. They also don't have enough money to move to better themselves.

[RNR1957NYer]

1 hour ago, knuckleharley said:

The uber rich,like Buffett and Gates aren't really affected by taxes because they have most of their money in tax shelters. Warren Bubbette has even whined about how his personal secretary pays more taxes than he does as a way to promote leftist "equality",yet it never seems to have occurred to him to pay her more money and to enroll her in one of his tax dodges.

It's ALWAYS the middle classes that pay the majority of the taxes because the rich have tax shelters like trust funds,and the poor don't make enough money to pay taxes. They also don't have enough money to move to better themselves.

I've been thinking about driving for one of those on line ride sharing apps so I could become uber rich....

Sorry - I'll go back to my room now.

[Tones52]

For my forum friends that watch the Rose Parade and/or Rose Bowl game on New Year's Day, I'm sure you've seen the shots of the local San Gabriel Mountains touching clear blue skies which look pretty sweet.

I've lived most of my life in the San Gabriel Valley just a few miles south of Pasadena and those mountains and can tell you honestly as a kid growing up in the 50's and even into the 60's there were days we could not see those mountains because of thick choking smog. I mean the kind that if you were out playing at recess, your lungs would hurt and your eyes would water.

But as I write this, I'm thinking of our 5 kids, all adults now, and the 3 grandkids who all live in this same valley and they have not experienced the kind of smog filled days that I survived as a kid. And I do believe it's because of the efforts to have IC engines burn cleaner as well as eliminating the burning of leaves in incinerators, phasing out of wood burning fireplaces etc. Do I miss seeing and hearing big block muscle cars roaring down the road though? Yeah, I do. 

I think that the ratio of vintage IC engine cars to hybrid and all electric ones will be such that we'll be able to still see our hobby cars on the road. The cost of gas though may rise to the levels I've seen when traveling to Europe. Which makes me think, can my 52 Cranbrook be converted to run on propane?  I just might need to do a search on that here on the forum.

[Flatie46]

3 hours ago, Tones52 said:

For my forum friends that watch the Rose Parade and/or Rose Bowl game on New Year's Day, I'm sure you've seen the shots of the local San Gabriel Mountains touching clear blue skies which look pretty sweet.

I've lived most of my life in the San Gabriel Valley just a few miles south of Pasadena and those mountains and can tell you honestly as a kid growing up in the 50's and even into the 60's there were days we could not see those mountains because of thick choking smog. I mean the kind that if you were out playing at recess, your lungs would hurt and your eyes would water.

But as I write this, I'm thinking of our 5 kids, all adults now, and the 3 grandkids who all live in this same valley and they have not experienced the kind of smog filled days that I survived as a kid. And I do believe it's because of the efforts to have IC engines burn cleaner as well as eliminating the burning of leaves in incinerators, phasing out of wood burning fireplaces etc. Do I miss seeing and hearing big block muscle cars roaring down the road though? Yeah, I do. 

I think that the ratio of vintage IC engine cars to hybrid and all electric ones will be such that we'll be able to still see our hobby cars on the road. The cost of gas though may rise to the levels I've seen when traveling to Europe. Which makes me think, can my 52 Cranbrook be converted to run on propane?  I just might need to do a search on that here on the forum.

Yes your 52 Cranbrook can be converted to propane very easily with bolt on parts from a Yale forklift ( late 60's early 70's vintage ). The engine in my 46 came from one. 

[Plymouthy Adams]

interesting reading for those of alternate fuel source......

energy from  cow burps.......

https://search.yahoo.com/search?p=energy+from+cow+burps&fr=yfp-t-s&fp=1&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8

ya'll have fun now ya hear..

[Adam H P15 D30]

On 9/28/2017 at 6:20 PM, TodFitch said:

Hmmm. I confess to being a bit compulsive. And one manifestation of that is keeping pretty detailed financial records. Looking at the registration cost on my cars the registration has increased $1/yr total for each car in the last 7 years. That is the registration cost I pay now is only $1 per car more than it was in 2011.

There is another fee listed on the payment which is based on value of the car. Looking at our two newer cars, it seems that goes down each year for the first 10 years and then is stable after that.

The net result is that I've seen no increase in DMV fees for my cars in years. Other costs like insurance, parts, repairs, etc. have gone up but amazingly those prices are largely set by the thrifty private sector and not our rapacious government.

The most recent statistics I've looked at are from 2016. As of last year there is still a net migration into California from other states.

I read about high profile people who leave the state for cost and tax reasons. But my sense of it, having known some pretty rich people when I worked in Silicon Valley, is the number of really rich people leaving due to taxes is very low. This seems to be backed up by studies like this one: http://web.stanford.edu/group/scspi/_media/working_papers/Varner-Young_Millionaire_Migration_in_CA.pdf That study is a few years old so things might have changed but I'd want something more than a sensational news headline to confirm it.

I suspect the middle class is more affected by the higher cost of living here than the really rich but I haven't seen a study that directly looks at that.

Since the census shows a net positive migration in from other states then I have to assume that if large numbers of middle class were leaving then there must be a whole lot of millionaires and poor people migrating in. That seems a bit unlikely but I guess it is possible.

That said, California is a big state and what is true for one part or even the whole as an average is not necessarily true for all individual parts. The Central Valley where you live has been at an economic disadvantage compared to the more urban and/or coastal parts of the state for a while now. So in your area there might well be a net migration out.

Just wait till next year, you will see a huge jump in registration fees.

Adam

[TodFitch]

1 hour ago, Adam H P15 D30 said:

Just wait till next year, you will see a huge jump in registration fees.

Adam

Recently signed legislation will raise the gas tax by $0.12/gal and license fee by an amount based on value of car with a minimum of $25.

I decided to plug this into a spreadsheet with inflation adjusted numbers from 20 years ago.

It looks like I will continue to pay the state less for the use our highway system than I did back then (this is for my fully depreciated cars so the value based portion of the license and registration is comparable). I suspect that will also be true for most people but it depends a lot on how expensive their car is, the MPG it gets and how many miles they drive per year.

Anyway, here is my "back of the napkin" calculations:

	1997	2017	2018
License & Registration (Not adjusted for CPI)	$37.00	$91.00	$116.00
Gas Tax (Not adjusted for CPI)	$0.30	$0.30	$0.42
MPG	25	45	45
CPI	1.527	1.000	1.000
Gas Tax $/mi (2017 $)	$0.02	$0.01	$0.01
Mile/yr	14000	14000	14000
Total $/yr (2017 $)	$312.98	$184.33	$246.67

If that is what it is what it takes to fix the roads, I'm willing to continue to pay less than I did in 1997.

The issue is that if you wait decades to adjust prices then you get a lot of push back when you do. Going from $184/yr in 2017 to $247/yr in 2018 will be a big sticker shock to lots of people.

Even I won't really like it even though its only $1.21/week, way less than the candy bar I sneak into the grocery cart at the check out stand.

But nearly everyone will have forgotten or been unaware of how much the inflation adjusted cost actually has gone down over the last 20 years. Especially since lots of people don't believe the Fed's inflation measurements.

And, of course, big jumps in taxes and fees can lead attempts to repeal the increases. A repeal, if successful, which will by any objective measure mean the roads will continue to get worse.

If you do a small incremental change each year (like private business usually does) then people just accept it.

Here is where I got the numbers for the above calculations:

• Registration & License fees from my personal records.
• Gas Tax from several internet searches
• CPI from the Bureau of Labor Statistics (all Urban average)
• MPG from my records for the daily drivers I own(ed) at the time
• Mile/yr, an average number from my records but seem to be similar to publish average values

 

[Adam H P15 D30]

They will siphon the new road $$$ off like they did to the other road taxes that are currently being charged at the pump so the roads will not get any better but we get to enjoy the honored distinction of paying the highest (by far) fuel taxes in the country.

The only reason your cost per mile has dropped is your fuel mileage has doubled.  Some of us need to drive TRUCKS.

I think the registration goes up an average of ~$100.00, might be mistaken though.

The current road taxes should repair the roads, not get diverted....

Electric and Hybrid cars should pay the additional taxes based on mileage.  To use their terms, "their fair share."

You are braver than me, I'm afraid of plugging it into a spreadsheet.  I already know we are getting ripped off.

It WILL be repealed.

My God, California sucks...

Adam

[Young Ed]

On 9/28/2017 at 10:49 AM, Plymouthy Adams said:

not nitpicking...but......Is it common to view beneath the cab and running board such as this trucks depicts? I did not have that on my 41 Dodge...nor the '58, the last year for the running board.

There is supposed to be a gap between cab and running board but that one looks about double what should be there. 

[Plymouthy Adams]

thanks Ed...I knew they did not bolt metal to metal and that gap seems a bit much...appreciate your reply

[johnsartain]

On 9/28/2017 at 8:29 AM, John Rogers said:

We can get together, order a huge pizza and watch it from our tailgates

                           John 

Oceanfront property in Arizona, can't wait!