When And How Did Plymouth Lose Their Way?

[larryconnors]

My first car was a used 48 Plymouth two door that I loved. My first new car was a 74 Plymouth Valiant that was a disaster. The first week a spark plug fell out because they forgot to tighten it at the factory. The windows leaked so bad that on rainy days I had to keep my feet up on the pedals because water on the floor ran from the back seat into the front and up the firewall when I stopped. The dealer never fixed the car. Instead they sent me a series of letters saying that my problem was being escalated to higher level bureacrats. After a year of spaced out letters they sent a final one saying that they had not heard from me recently and were closing their file because they assumed my problem was fixed. It's been 39 years now and although I've bought many new cars since, none has ever been a Chrysler product until I bought my 47 P15 last year.

[JIPJOBXX]

All the major manufacture lost there ways when the Japanese came to town with there well built cars!  Ours unfortunately were just mast assembled with no pride for the final product where as the Japanese worker were proud of the cars and there companies!

[Young Ed]

Chrysler also had an pattern of great styling and marketing with poor quality followed by "rebuilding" years where they fixed the quality issues.

[greg g]

I remember my dad bought a 1960 Dodge Dart.  His first NEW car. It was the cheapy Seneca model with no options but radio and heater defroster.  It was a /6 with the three on the tree.  It started using oil from the get go, the dealer put nw rings in at about 1500 miles, than again at about 5K, at 10K he talked to the district rep and got a new engine.  Two days after install it blew three freeze plugs.  Finally it acted like a regular car and he was happy with the way it drove, and it was a dependable car for the next 3 or 4 years, then the body started to rust out, over the head lamps, around the rear wheels, the bottom of the front fenders, bottom of the rear doors, and the bottom of the trunk lid.  He fixed these and had it painted, and I got the car in 66 when he bought a 65 Coronet 500 .  That car was worlds apart from the 60. I drove the 60 for two years and it had 140K on it when I got rid of it.  My cousin had a 57 Plymouth, that was a POS, and a neighbor had a 59 that was also crap.  Some of that may have been residual of quality materials being in short supply due to the Korean Conflict.  But the early /6's were problems and the bodies till the mid 60 seemed to be made of recycled tuna cans.

[desoto1939]

But since the Japanese where making a better car the America Auto makers were then forced to make better bodies and better cars that are more reliable.  When was the last time that you saw any major rott out on a car.  I know that some cars in the upper states may get the rustout because of the amount of salt that these states use but overall the bodies are not rusting.  Look at the engine life, going 100k before replacing spark plugs  oil life now going any where from 5-10K. Got rid of the old pure based oils and now running synthetic oils.  Electronic ignitions getting better gas mileage  tires that can last upto 80k miles if rotated.  brake linings no going 50k and up.

 

So yes the cars of the years that we are running now as antiques had alot of steel but that would rust out.  So overall the car companies have improved and were forced to improve as the Amercan started to buy the Hondas that had better quality right out of the box.

 

So in this instance foreign competition was good for the american buyer and forced the American Car manufacturer to improve their product or go out of business.  When we destroyed Japan with the Nuke bomb there where forced to start over with the Demming model of business but inthe states we keep the status quo  and then it bite us in the rear end.

 

Now we are starting to bring back to the states the manufacturing that we lost so it is very cyclical.

 

Rich Hartung.

Desoto1939@aol.com

[randroid]

Gents,

 

A few weeks ago we had an excellent thread titled, "Plymouth-The Engineered Car", that touted the significant advancements made by WPC.  So why didn't Chrysler leave all other makes in the dust?  Simply put, it is chrome, nor quality, that sells.  The buying public came to assume th at quality was an inherent factor and was willing to trade blindly for the "bigger and the best".  A prime example is the Pontiac Trans-Am, which went from being a coveted marque to a disposible POS almost overnight with nobody watching or, perhaps more importantly, nobody caring.  The cars companies don't give us what we want; they give us what we deserve.

 

Last year I bought an HP laptop because HP has always been a respected name, and when I began to have problems with it a month later I assumed it was a fluke.  I now find such not to be the case.  As long as we are willing to buy inferior products there will always be nice people happy to sell them to us, and I don't have a clue what we can to about it.  We can't legislate quality any more then we can legislate morality or any other things we might feel would make us "better", but I don't feel that all is lost.  I just find it more comfortable to point the finger of blame than to come up with a solution, just like everybody else.  Perhaps we will live to see the day when pride of workmanship will be the norm, and in the meantime satisfy myself that I'm getting what I really want, or deserve.

 

-Randy

[JerseyHarold]

Quality issues did not help the Plymouth brand or Chrysler in general.  Another factor was that, as time went on, there was too much 'badge engineering'.  Until the sixties, if you bought a Plymouth it had at least some unique sheetmetal and styling cues.  As time went on, the only difference between Plymouth and Dodge became the nameplate,  Plymouth lost its identity with the public and that, I think, was the final straw.

 

As far as build quality is concerned, cars have less apparent rust these days  due largely to wrap-around plastic bumper covers and rocker panel moldings that hide problem areas.  Asian vehicles have corrosion issues but, for some reason, there hasn't been much publicity on the subject.  One recent example are those cute little Hyundais that have catastrophic frame failures due to rustout.

Edited May 24, 2013 by JerseyHarold

[OldDad67]

My first car was a used 48 Plymouth two door that I loved. My first new car was a 74 Plymouth Valiant that was a disaster. The first week a spark plug fell out because they forgot to tighten it at the factory. The windows leaked so bad that on rainy days I had to keep my feet up on the pedals because water on the floor ran from the back seat into the front and up the firewall when I stopped. The dealer never fixed the car. Instead they sent me a series of letters saying that my problem was being escalated to higher level bureacrats. After a year of spaced out letters they sent a final one saying that they had not heard from me recently and were closing their file because they assumed my problem was fixed. It's been 39 years now and although I've bought many new cars since, none has ever been a Chrysler product until I bought my 47 P15 last year.

[OldDad67]

When I retired after 30 years as a factory rep for the general, I can tell you when you let the "bean counters" run the company quality and innovation suffer. The japs value equal input from engineering, financial, as well as marketing. They aren't perfect either, but you can't have just one discipline running the company. Ask me how I know.

My first car was a used 48 Plymouth two door that I loved. My first new car was a 74 Plymouth Valiant that was a disaster. The first week a spark plug fell out because they forgot to tighten it at the factory. The windows leaked so bad that on rainy days I had to keep my feet up on the pedals because water on the floor ran from the back seat into the front and up the firewall when I stopped. The dealer never fixed the car. Instead they sent me a series of letters saying that my problem was being escalated to higher level bureacrats. After a year of spaced out letters they sent a final one saying that they had not heard from me recently and were closing their file because they assumed my problem was fixed. It's been 39 years now and although I've bought many new cars since, none has ever been a Chrysler product until I bought my 47 P15 last year.

[TodFitch]

Dodge and Chrysler are still around but Plymouth isn't and they all had similiar issues with design and quality over the years. So focusing on why Plymouth is gone, I'd suggest that Plymouth was sold through Chrysler-Plymouth dealers and there would have been a strong incentive to "upsell" every customer to a Chrysler. While at the Dodge dealer the focus would be on selling the Dodge. And, of course, having the Dodge and Plymouth models identical in later years simply made it worse as the corporation really didn't care if they sold the car with a Plymouth badge or a Dodge badge.

[Plymouthy Adams]

Japanese and better built cars...tell you what...find me as many examples of the J-cars in number as there is for the old American iron ..when you can prove these figures..come back...they sold because they were cheap...in more ways than one and that cheap is the reason they not here today..they were the very first of the throw away car....only bad trend the American companies gave way to...

[Young Ed]

But since the Japanese where making a better car the America Auto makers were then forced to make better bodies and better cars that are more reliable.  When was the last time that you saw any major rott out on a car.  I know that some cars in the upper states may get the rustout because of the amount of salt that these states use but overall the bodies are not rusting.  Look at the engine life, going 100k before replacing spark plugs  oil life now going any where from 5-10K. Got rid of the old pure based oils and now running synthetic oils.  Electronic ignitions getting better gas mileage  tires that can last upto 80k miles if rotated.  brake linings no going 50k and up.

 

So yes the cars of the years that we are running now as antiques had alot of steel but that would rust out.  So overall the car companies have improved and were forced to improve as the Amercan started to buy the Hondas that had better quality right out of the box.

 

So in this instance foreign competition was good for the american buyer and forced the American Car manufacturer to improve their product or go out of business.  When we destroyed Japan with the Nuke bomb there where forced to start over with the Demming model of business but inthe states we keep the status quo  and then it bite us in the rear end.

 

Now we are starting to bring back to the states the manufacturing that we lost so it is very cyclical.

 

Rich Hartung.

Desoto1939@aol.com

 

Some of that stuff still happens. Look at some of the mid 2000s Ford F150s where the owners are being charged 200-300 per spark plug to get them changed or if too many of them break off they just end up putting new heads on for a couple grand. Yes crazy. My buddy bought a 05 dakota and it had rust holes in the wheel wells of the box before the extended warranty was up. During that same time period he also had a couple ball joints tie rod ends and the last thing that failed was the rear axle. I believe by the time they were done with that it had new differential bearings, new axles and bearings, and new rotors. He couldn't trade that thing in fast enough.

[Tim Keith]

 The windows leaked so bad that on rainy days I had to keep my feet up on the pedals because water on the floor ran from the back seat into the front and up the firewall when I stopped. 

 

Leaking window seals on an A-body Chrysler is relatively common problem, but an easy fix.   The windshield also often leaks through worn wiper seals.   Either is a 10 minute DIY repair.   The '74 Valiant is one of the most durable cars ever built, whether 318 or slant six. Simple to repair.   Consumer Reports admired the '74 Valiant, as did the buying public.   The local dealer was incompetent on the leaking windows as you can fix this yourself in 10 minutes.  Those Valiants are the P15s of the 1970s.  The motors will go 300,000 miles with regular maintenance.  

Edited May 24, 2013 by Tim Keith

[knuckleharley]

All the major manufacture lost there ways when the Japanese came to town with there well built cars!  Ours unfortunately were just mast assembled with no pride for the final product where as the Japanese worker were proud of the cars and there companies!

Another factor was thanks to Jimmah Carter the Japanese were allowed to dump their cars and trucks here at below cost so they could open up the market,while their own import tax on US cars and trucks was over 100 percent.

 

You could buy a new Toyota or Nissan pickup for 1600 bucks,and it cost them more than that to build them and ship them here.

 

Meanwhile,UAW workers in Detroit were getting 30 bucks or more a hour to operate air-powered screwdrivers. Then the automanufacturers started taking hits from the EPA,and the new small Japanese OHC engines were cheaper and easer  to get in compliance  with CAFE/EPA,and who knows what other laws than the old V-8's Detroit was using.

 

I was working at a Chrysler-Dodge dealership in 76 and bought a new 76 Cordoba with the 360,and while it was a GREAT car that I still miss,the damn thing never once got over 8 mpg with that "lean burn" engine. Working at the dealership,I knew I was lucky because some of the customers were compaining about 6 mpg with their slant 6 Aspens.

 

All this made those 20-something mpg Japanese cars look real good. Especially when gas shot up to over 75 cents a gallon while wages stayed the same.

Edited May 24, 2013 by knuckleharley

[knuckleharley]

As far as build quality is concerned, cars have less apparent rust these days  due largely to wrap-around plastic bumper covers and rocker panel moldings that hide problem areas.  Asian vehicles have corrosion issues but, for some reason, there hasn't been much publicity on the subject.  One recent example are those cute little Hyundais that have catastrophic frame failures due to rustout.

I think the lack of complaints about this is the mindset of today's "throw away society". People used to buy new cars with the expectaton that they would have them for 10 years or more before parking them and buying new ones. Now people buy new cars every 2 or 3 years,and the cars are on their third owners before the rust ever starts showing.

[TodFitch]

I think the lack of complaints about this is the mindset of today's "throw away society". People used to buy new cars with the expectaton that they would have them for 10 years or more before parking them and buying new ones. Now people buy new cars every 2 or 3 years,and the cars are on their third owners before the rust ever starts showing.

 

Used to? Wife's car is 12 years old while my everyday car is 9.5 years old. Both purchased new. I expect we will have both of those cars for another 10 or so years as they are holding up well.

 

Rust is not an issue where I live so you can go until parts get too expensive for repairing a car or collision damage totals the vehicle.

[LAKOTA169]

We bought a new '70 Duster. First time through the car wash, water poured in through the windshield. Took it back to the dealer, and they pushed the windshield out from the inside. No windshield seal. My wife has a 2000 Dakota R/T 5.9l with less than 60,000 miles. There is a large rust hole in the rear wheel well and rust on both bumpers. As for 100,000 miles for sparkplug change, not on my '05 Magnum. Book says 30,000 (I'm at 47K), and I have 16 plugs. Book says it's a 2 1/2 hour job (at dealer prices). A year ago, we bought a 2010 Subaru Outback. Got 562 miles on a tank of gas on a trip to Kentucky (used 16.5 gallons) and over 400+ miles per tank around town. Dealer service is excellent. They will pick car up and return it for an oil change. Plus they wash the car after any service call. Thinking of replacing the Magnum with another Subaru

[P15-D24]

To Todd's point the issue I have on older "new" vehicles is some electro-mechanical system breaking and replacement parts are ether unavailable or too expensive. Think heater/AC controls, wiper motors, headlight doors, etc. Engines last forever with today's oils and rust is just not the problem is use to be. 

[blucarsdn]

Responding to this topic is very much like preaching to the choir, as it may be, the congrigation has their own opinions as to what happened to Plymouth and/or a vast majority of the business in the U.S. since their post war hay days.

I think it could be said that the U.S. auto industry entered the early post war years with a group of consumers hungry for anything that was new. The Great Depression and WWII years had seen to that.

My father never had much love for any of the Chrysler products, he was forced to buy a '36 Plymouth in 1943, because that was only fairly modern car he could find to buy after he foolishly sold his '40 Chevy Delux 2dr for $1,600... He had paid just a little over $800.for the car when he bought it new.. The Plymouth was a piece of junk, it would hardly run, usually had to be puched to start... Dad left the keys in the ignition, the car was sitting in front of a beer bar.. Gone,

I have been very faithful to the GM line of vehicles, however, I have owned my share of Fords.. Still have a '36 Ford that I bought 60 plus years ago when I was in high school... My first Mopar vehicle was a motor home with a Dodge Fargo chassis, the engine was a 413 CID V8 with a 727 trans.. It was a great unit, plenty of power. I sold the unit in 1987 to buy a larger MH... The larger MH had a GM chassis, 454 V8, 400 trans.. The engine went out when it had less than 25k. I had the engine rebuilt and sold the unit... The guy I sold the earlier MH with the 413 still has the unit...

My next venture into a Mopar was in 2003, my wife and I decided to buy a new convertible for our 50th annaversary.. We really liked the Chrysler Sebring, especially the dark green one with a dark tan top... I was dealing on several.. Each time I would encounter someone driving a Sebring I would ask them about their feelings about the car.. Most of the responses were positive until I asked the question, would you buy another one? The usual response was.. Never! The car was unrealiable and the dealers were crooks..

In 2003 I bought a Mercedes CLK 430 AMG convertible, my first forgien car.. In over ten years the only issues we have had with the Mercedes is general maintainance items..

I have found that with few exceptions, the U.S. vehicles made prior to 1987, are generally nothing put trouble, when compared to the post '88 vehicles. The venerated SBC engine had many problems, as did the Ford Y-Blocks and FE series of engines... Chrysler made some good engines and powertrains, however their bodies fell apart.

I think that the problems of the US auto industry could be summed up by comparing them with the other large Corporations of the post war era, Zerox, IBM, to name just a few... As the president of Chevrolet said in the early '60's "whats good for Chevrolet, is good for the country"... Both of which went into the toilet a few years ago..  Bill 

Edited May 25, 2013 by blucarsdn

[Plymouthy Adams]

hardly a fair assessment of a 7 year old used car....and evidently someone thought enough of fit to steal it...a fair and fitting end to the car considering your dad's impression of the vehicle...

[Robert Horne]

Here in Va/Tenn., it is the dealers that kill the sales.

It took me hours, and much coffee to get a fair deal on a new 2000 Dodge Avenger,

and this was after many trips to different Mopar Dealers.

Every Mopar dealer we went to had the same dishonest, do not care attitude.

The Avenger was great, V6, good power, 35mpg on trips.

Any Dodge,Ford,Chevy dealer near where I live, have the attitude, pay MSRP or do not buy.

[plymouthcranbrook]

What killed me on Plymouths(which I dearly loved) was a New 1883 Reliant K that burned out 3 clutches in 15,000 miles. Chrysler replaced 2 and told us the third was our responsibility because"We did not know how to drive the car". This with two drivers who had been raised on Manual cars and never a problem. I later found out that the front Suspension  was so damaged from a presale problem that the car could not even have a front end Alignment. Complained to the Chrysler "Consumer Appeal Board"  . Was told that they had replaced two clutches and that there could not be anything wrong with the car or it would not have been sold. Bleep you, we got your money. Two weeks later I traded it in on a one year old Cavalier that proceeded to last for 12 years and 143,000 miles.  Now, other that my two Old Plymouths, we own a 2012 Kia Soul and a host of Chevrolets. A couple of months  after I traded  it  the Reliant pulled up next to me at a stoplight. When the driver pulled away, the car died(a trait that the car had since day one.)  I can't imagine owning another Chrysler Product under any Circumstances.

[blucarsdn]

hardly a fair assessment of a 7 year old used car....and evidently someone thought enough of fit to steal it...a fair and fitting end to the car considering your dad's impression of the vehicle...

The rest of the '36 Plymouth story:... The 36 Plym was a burnt out hulk when it was found out in the desert.. I have always believed that my dad had one of his buddies take the car and torch it so he could collect on the insurance. As I recall dad had paid $1,200. for the Plym...

Used cars were higher than pockets on a shirt during WWII because of the price freeze that the OPA had placed on car's etc.to minimize black marketing.. Bill

[Oldguy48]

  We bought a new 1988 Dodge Caravan (rebadged Plymouth)!  Beautiful vehicle, and all was good for a few months.  Then little stuff started to break, the engine developed an oil leak (Mitsubishi engine).  The leak was fixed under warranty, although the dealer's "mechanic" beat a new camshaft seal into the end of the head with a ball pein hammer, and left his mark on the head.  On a trip to the Grand Canyon, we barely made it over the Rockies (Low range, foot to the floor, and temperature climbing).  It didn't like high altitude, even after assurances from the dealer that there would be no problem.  The "removeable" rear seats were all but impossible to remove or install without help.

  Finally got rid of it, and decided then that I would never buy another Chrysler product (except, of course, my P15).  I think old Walter P. himself would have had a low opinion of that Caravan.  Years ago, I was a die-hard Mopar fan, but the Caravan permanently changed that.  Sorry for the rant, but I've been annoyed by that piece of junk ever since.  But I feel much better now.

 

Wayne

[larryconnors]

I never understood how The company that built my P15 could form a partnership with the maker of the planes used in the sneak attack on Pearl harbor. I guess people have largely forgotten about that now and Mitsubishi is just another car maker to them.