Proposed gas w/ 20 percent ethanol-concerns?

['41 Fat Bottom Girl]

All of my elastomeric fuel lines have been replaced with today's materials- at tank, at fuel pump-so I am probably ok there. Recent fuel pump with new bowl gasket, so ok there. I think. No old rubber.

Fuel conditioning-wise, I add a can of Seafoam additive with every tank fill. 

If our illustrious government (?) does up the allowable ethanol content to 20%, is there any other recommendation to add to the gas for my flathead? 

 

 

[TodFitch]

I had not heard of proposals or rule changes to allow 20% ethanol so I did a web search. Turns out your post here at P15-D24 was the top hit. The news articles I found were about waiving the rules to allow more use of 15%. So I am curious, what is the source of the news about 20% ethanol gasoline?

[allbizz49]

I have been told we're at 10-15% here in Kommiefornia. Not sure if that's true but I think if you drive your stuff on a regular basis, you won't have a problem. My newest vehicle other than my motorcycle was built in 1959. Stock, points and carbs and I never have fuel issues. Biggest problem I see with the older cars is that they sit more than they move. 

[desoto1939]

I am also worried about the 15% ethanol fuels.  But when we went to 10% mixture we all noticed that the MPG also went down.  So when we switch to 15% ethhanol what is the MPG going to be.  So we  get better gas prices, MAYBE, but i doubt that and we get even worse gas milage.  I have read that so  cars will need to go back to the dealer to have computer chips replaced so that they can function on the E15 gas.  So the Gov't has not done it's homework just a real BIG BAND-AIDE to fool everone and have not addressed the real issue of gas being produced inthe USA and not having to use OPEC and other countires for gas and oil.

 

Went to carlise this weekend on the way home on the PA Turnpike stopped at a rest stop. Noticed seeral Tesla cars parked at the charging station. We sat outside for about 15-20 minutes just to take a break and when we left the cars were still being charged again.  Our topic on the road was this, We have a gas car and can pull into a fueling station and fill up our 20 gallon car in approx 5 -10 minutes max and be back on the road again.  BUT with an ALL Electric car you have to wait for the charge to complete which could take longer than just getting gas.  So when we have to go to all elelctric cars what is the time savings or is it being setup so that we have to spend mre money for food and drinks while waiting for the car to be recharged again.

 

Some real big questions to be answered to the public.  So at Carlise they do not have any charging stations setup around the outside parimeter of the facility. That is another bigger issue for the future, but maybe we will not have many antique venders selling parts since most of our cars can not hook upto a charging station, oh well lets ponder the future of our hobby?????????????

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com 

[greg g]

Maybe some insurance company will come up with Range Anxiety  Coverage for when your tesla is coming up on 220 miles and it says the next charging station is 30 miles away.  If you need a tow to the charging station, and have expenses for things required during the recharge interval, you file a claim to get reimbursed for those costs.  Or you could carry a portable solar recharge unit, deploy it on the shoulder of the road, and chill for three hours till you are back to 30% and go to the next charging station at 20 mph.

 

Or some one will come up with a booster box that will give you 20 miles at mph.  Or maybe those suitcase scooters from the 50s will make a return, or you could tow a King Midget..  Or I saw something about a company that is rebuilding nissan leafs to give them 400 miles and 2hr recharge to 60%. Then there is that diesel recharge trailer that tesla sends with their media demo teams.

[Sniper]

Or a diesel powered dually will show up towing a diesel powered generator to charge up your EV, lol.

 

What they ought to do is put one of those WWII hand crank generators in the trunk, then you can get your cardio as you save the planet, man I am on a roll. 

[soth122003]

2 hours ago, Sniper said:

Or a diesel powered dually will show up towing a diesel powered generator to charge up your EV, lol.

My friend and I were discussing that very thing yesterday. Since we live in Florida, when a hurricane strikes, set up at the 150 mile edged of the evacuation route and recharge the electric cars evacuating at $50 a pop. That is a deal since a refuel in gas is usually $50-$75 a tank at current prices and will only get worse this year.

 

Joe Lee

[Doug&Deb]

It’s my understanding that more fuel containing 15 percent ethanol will be sold. I think that only affects a small amount of stations. I’ve not heard anything about discontinuing the current fuel but I’m not sure. I have no doubt the aftermarket will quickly come up with something we can use to counteract the new garbage. 

[TodFitch]

5 hours ago, desoto1939 said:

I am also worried about the 15% ethanol fuels.  But when we went to 10% mixture we all noticed that the MPG also went down.  So when we switch to 15% ethhanol what is the MPG going to be.  So we  get better gas prices, MAYBE, but i doubt that and we get even worse gas milage.  I have read that so  cars will need to go back to the dealer to have computer chips replaced so that they can function on the E15 gas.  So the Gov't has not done it's homework just a real BIG BAND-AIDE to fool everone and have not addressed the real issue of gas being produced inthe USA and not having to use OPEC and other countires for gas and oil.

 

Went to carlise this weekend on the way home on the PA Turnpike stopped at a rest stop. Noticed seeral Tesla cars parked at the charging station. We sat outside for about 15-20 minutes just to take a break and when we left the cars were still being charged again.  Our topic on the road was this, We have a gas car and can pull into a fueling station and fill up our 20 gallon car in approx 5 -10 minutes max and be back on the road again.  BUT with an ALL Electric car you have to wait for the charge to complete which could take longer than just getting gas.  So when we have to go to all elelctric cars what is the time savings or is it being setup so that we have to spend mre money for food and drinks while waiting for the car to be recharged again.

 

Some real big questions to be answered to the public.  So at Carlise they do not have any charging stations setup around the outside parimeter of the facility. That is another bigger issue for the future, but maybe we will not have many antique venders selling parts since most of our cars can not hook upto a charging station, oh well lets ponder the future of our hobby?????????????

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com 

“We sat outside for about 15-20 minutes just to take a break” . . . Exactly! You were there for 15 to 20 minutes even though it probably only took you 5 minutes to fill your tank.

 

I can’t speak for Tesla because I don’t have one. But my new EV will charge from 10% to 80% (enough for 220 or so miles) in less than 20 minutes. That is long enough to use the restrooms, buy a snack, etc. The couple of road trips we have taken the car was charged and ready to go before we were. Yes, it can take 20 minutes to charge a current generation EV versus 5 minutes to fill a tank with gasoline but it doesn’t necessarily mean you are spending 15 minutes longer at a place you needed or wanted to take a break at.

 

A quick check on a site that lists EV chargers shows several Level 2 (slow AC chargers) in Carlisle, PA including one at the Carlisle Fairgrounds so your car will be “filling up” while you wander around the grounds. And at least one other at a hotel where you could fully charge overnight while you sleep. And there are a couple of DF fast chargers in Carlisle as well. So an EV driver should have no issues attending the Carlisle event.

2 hours ago, soth122003 said:

My friend and I were discussing that very thing yesterday. Since we live in Florida, when a hurricane strikes, set up at the 150 mile edged of the evacuation route and recharge the electric cars evacuating at $50 a pop. That is a deal since a refuel in gas is usually $50-$75 a tank at current prices and will only get worse this year.

 

Joe Lee

Not everyone has a house but those that do who also own an EV usually charge at home. In the case of a hurricane where you have a day or more advance warning, they will be charging to 100% instead of their usual 80% and will have 200 to 300 miles of range for a for a typical current generation EV. As long as that gets them to a point where the electrical grid is functional outside the evacuation zone they should be able to use a commercial charging station.

 

Also, if/when the power grid fails all gasoline stations fail too: No power for the pumps or the point of sale terminals, etc.

[desoto1939]

2 hours ago, soth122003 said:

My friend and I were discussing that very thing yesterday. Since we live in Florida, when a hurricane strikes, set up at the 150 mile edged of the evacuation route and recharge the electric cars evacuating at $50 a pop. That is a deal since a refuel in gas is usually $50-$75 a tank at current prices and will only get worse this year.

 

Joe Lee

Joe:  Yes that might be a good price. But when the battery runs down and you are stuck in a long evacuation line and not moving and then battery then dies how do you get a quick charge?  With an gas car they can come with an emergency vehicle that has some gas can and at least fill your tank and you are back on the road but with a battery powered car you will still have to sit onthe road until you have enough battery life to get you moving again and by that time the hurricane might be very close.

 

These are all things that I feel the powers at be have not considered even the car manufacturers.  The gov't is making incentives to the car companies but I feel they have not really done their investigative Quality Assurance testing and done various scenerios such as the one above.

[Sniper]

41 minutes ago, TodFitch said:

I can’t speak for Tesla because I don’t have one. But my new EV will charge from 10% to 80% (enough for 220 or so miles) in less than 20 minutes. That is long enough to use the restrooms, buy a snack, etc. The couple of road trips we have taken the car was charged and ready to go before we were. Yes, it can take 20 minutes to charge a current generation EV versus 5 minutes to fill a tank with gasoline but it doesn’t necessarily mean you are spending 15 minutes longer at a place you needed or wanted to take a break at.

 

A quick check on a site that lists EV chargers shows several Level 2 (slow AC chargers) in Carlisle, PA including one at the Carlisle Fairgrounds so your car will be “filling up” while you wander around the grounds. And at least one other at a hotel where you could fully charge overnight while you sleep. And there are a couple of DF fast chargers in Carlisle as well. So an EV driver should have no issues attending the Carlisle event.

 

Some of us don't fart about at the gas station hogging up a pump when it's not pumping.  Pet peeve of mine, lol.  I travel a lot and nothing irritates me more than some jackwagon parked at a pump, not getting gas, to get themselves a slurpee or something.  You may ask how I know that they aren't inside paying first?  Fuel filler door is on opposite side of the car from the pump is one clue.  A lot of times I see them come out, get in and leave.  I have a 35 gallon tank and it takes a bit of time to fill it, not 20 minutes though. 

 

As for the several chargers comment.  Great, hundreds of EV's waiting for several chargers.  The biggest refueling issue right now is lack of infrastructure.  From generation, to transmission, to delivery, to charging times.  A few months ago I did a comparison of a cross country trip gas vs EV.  I used Tesla's routing map for the EV, google maps for the gas car.  LA to NYC.  Gas car won by over 12 hours.  Tesla routed quickest route optimized to use the available charging stations.  Google maps routed quickest route.  Both observed speed limits and such. 

[TodFitch]

1 hour ago, Sniper said:

 

Some of us don't fart about at the gas station hogging up a pump when it's not pumping.  Pet peeve of mine, lol.  I travel a lot and nothing irritates me more than some jackwagon parked at a pump, not getting gas, to get themselves a slurpee or something.  You may ask how I know that they aren't inside paying first?  Fuel filler door is on opposite side of the car from the pump is one clue.  A lot of times I see them come out, get in and leave.  I have a 35 gallon tank and it takes a bit of time to fill it, not 20 minutes though. 

 

As for the several chargers comment.  Great, hundreds of EV's waiting for several chargers.  The biggest refueling issue right now is lack of infrastructure.  From generation, to transmission, to delivery, to charging times.  A few months ago I did a comparison of a cross country trip gas vs EV.  I used Tesla's routing map for the EV, google maps for the gas car.  LA to NYC.  Gas car won by over 12 hours.  Tesla routed quickest route optimized to use the available charging stations.  Google maps routed quickest route.  Both observed speed limits and such. 

I agree, it is very annoying to be blocked from a pump or charging station by someone who is not using it. Matters not if it is gas or electricity, it is just plain impolite at best. I can think of other words at worst.

 

If you are doing lots of long distance driving then a gas vehicle is still the way to go. But most people do only a couple of long distance drives per year. The 1000 mile trip we took last month did take us a bit longer than it would have in the old car because we had an extra stop to charge that diverted us off the shortest/fastest way. But for around town and shorter, less than 250 miles or so round trip, out of town trips it is nice to have a car that is always “filled up” and needs almost no maintenance other than tire rotation.

[Tooljunkie]

There was a big issue with people stranded in a winter storm. All the ev’s were dead. Easy to bring a couple gallons to keep heat running, not so much with the pixie burners

[Sniper]

Interestingly enough, I was recently contacted, as in day  before yesterday, by a company taking care of commercial EV charging systems.  It's related to what I do already, in fact the company I am currently working for is getting into that market and will probably put that work on my group.

 

Right now they have 2 guys covering the US and are looking to add 4- 6 more.  The compensation package is much better than I currently make.  But I will be on the road more.  All tentative right now, so we shall see. 

Edited April 29, 2022 by Sniper

[TodFitch]

4 hours ago, Tooljunkie said:

There was a big issue with people stranded in a winter storm. All the ev’s were dead. Easy to bring a couple gallons to keep heat running, not so much with the pixie burners

Hmmm. The story I read about the family in a Tesla who was helped by a trucker did not extend to all EVs in that area.

 

Consider the following:

How full is the fuel tank in the average car on the highway. Assume most people fill when about 1/4 is showing on the tank and fill it all the way. The average of that is 0.625 call it 63%. How long can that last if all you are doing is idling the engine to maintain the cabin temperature? Varies by car engine size and fuel tank size. The numbers I find on a quick search are about 0.1 gal/hour for each liter of engine size. Since this is an old car forum, I'll use my approx. 3 liter, 14 gallon tank 1933 Plymouth: Assuming 8.75 gallons in the tank (0.625 of 14) it should be able to keep the car warm for 29 hours. That is for an average fill percentage. There will be people on the road with a full tank and there will be people on the road with a nearly empty tank. The nearly empty tank people will be hurting after only a short time. Oh, and don't forget that you need to be careful with an internal combustion engine car that the wind/snow/etc. conditions are such that you don't get carbon monoxide into the cabin.

 

On the EV side, many (most?) charge daily to 80% so the average EV caught in an unexpected storm are likely to have more than 63% battery charge and the number with only 25% or less battery will be pretty low. But let us go with the same low 63% "fill" level as for the average internal combustion engined car caught in the same unexpected conditions. A typical EV does not need to run the drive system to heat the interior of the car. And the typical EV uses between 1 and 1.5 kW to heat the interior (newer ones with heat pumps use less). Typical battery sizes range from 60 kWh to 100 kWh. Using the 77 kWh battery in my new car as an example, we have 63% of 77 kWh or about 48 kWh available when stuck in the storm. That should last somewhere around 38 hours, nearly 10 hours longer than for our above internal combustion example.

 

All this depends on the vehicle (engine size, fuel tank or battery size) so your results will vary a lot depending on your assumptions. But I think it shows there is nothing intrinsically worse about an EV in an unexpected storm than an internal combustion engine vehicle. What is does show is there will always be some people who are low on fuel/battery. And that, especially in winter conditions, you should have enough fuel in your vehicle for unexpected conditions.

[Tooljunkie]

8 hours ago, TodFitch said:

Hmmm. The story I read about the family in a Tesla who was helped by a trucker did not extend to all EVs in that area.

 

Consider the following:

How full is the fuel tank in the average car on the highway. Assume most people fill when about 1/4 is showing on the tank and fill it all the way. The average of that is 0.625 call it 63%. How long can that last if all you are doing is idling the engine to maintain the cabin temperature? Varies by car engine size and fuel tank size. The numbers I find on a quick search are about 0.1 gal/hour for each liter of engine size. Since this is an old car forum, I'll use my approx. 3 liter, 14 gallon tank 1933 Plymouth: Assuming 8.75 gallons in the tank (0.625 of 14) it should be able to keep the car warm for 29 hours. That is for an average fill percentage. There will be people on the road with a full tank and there will be people on the road with a nearly empty tank. The nearly empty tank people will be hurting after only a short time. Oh, and don't forget that you need to be careful with an internal combustion engine car that the wind/snow/etc. conditions are such that you don't get carbon monoxide into the cabin.

 

On the EV side, many (most?) charge daily to 80% so the average EV caught in an unexpected storm are likely to have more than 63% battery charge and the number with only 25% or less battery will be pretty low. But let us go with the same low 63% "fill" level as for the average internal combustion engined car caught in the same unexpected conditions. A typical EV does not need to run the drive system to heat the interior of the car. And the typical EV uses between 1 and 1.5 kW to heat the interior (newer ones with heat pumps use less). Typical battery sizes range from 60 kWh to 100 kWh. Using the 77 kWh battery in my new car as an example, we have 63% of 77 kWh or about 48 kWh available when stuck in the storm. That should last somewhere around 38 hours, nearly 10 hours longer than for our above internal combustion example.

 

All this depends on the vehicle (engine size, fuel tank or battery size) so your results will vary a lot depending on your assumptions. But I think it shows there is nothing intrinsically worse about an EV in an unexpected storm than an internal combustion engine vehicle. What is does show is there will always be some people who are low on fuel/battery. And that, especially in winter conditions, you should have enough fuel in your vehicle for unexpected conditions.

Forgot about diminished capacity of an ev in 0f or colder temps. Also a well used battery also has lost capacity. And how far down the road did vehicle get before being unable to travel further. 
 

[Los_Control]

While I am a grumpy old man & totally against EV .... I can see something like this in our future.

https://www.businessinsider.com/public-road-detroit-to-charge-electric-cars-as-they-drive-2022-2

[DJ194950]

Well,

wonder if they have tested the system yet with a foot or two of snow/ice covering ??

 

DJ

[Eneto-55]

On 4/25/2022 at 11:13 AM, desoto1939 said:

I am also worried about the 15% ethanol fuels.  But when we went to 10% mixture we all noticed that the MPG also went down.  So when we switch to 15% ethanol what is the MPG going to be.  So we  get better gas prices, MAYBE, but i doubt that and we get even worse gas mileage. 

....

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com 

That's what I wondered about when I heard this on the news.  So they keep the fuel price lower by adding more ethanol.  But overall, will it actually come out ahead, rather than just using higher-priced "real" gasoline?  Wonder if anyone has tested this and crunched the numbers.

[Eneto-55]

On 4/25/2022 at 5:07 PM, TodFitch said:

....

Also, if/when the power grid fails all gasoline stations fail too: No power for the pumps or the point of sale terminals, etc.

I don't know about here in the States, but in Brazil, the fuel stations (some, at least) could still pump gas when there was no electricity by opening the front panel and attaching a hand crank.  Believe me, it was a workout.

[Sniper]

Yes, a portable generac generator would fire up that gas pump no problem.  the real problem we have it that everything is connected and in the cloud.  If that doesn't work then the pump isn't going to pump regardless.  I don't carry around cash anymore, I pay with the card.  So someone with a calculator adding up my bill isn't going to help.