Where do I start?

[knuckleharley]

2 hours ago, Sam Buchanan said:

 

Nope, not hot enough for a fire threat.......looks like this is an area of expertise with which you are not familiar.............

I am also not familiar with drinking poison.

 

I will take your word for the safety using today's shrink wrap and heat sources,but will still remain on the cautious side when it comes to applying heat on and around 50 year old cloth wiring with a lot of the cloth gone,and the rest mostly rotten.

 

The older and less agile I get,the more cautious I get. If the old wiring in anything I buy is "iffy",I will just spend the bucks to replace it with new wiring. If I can't afford a whole wiring harness,I will replace it as section at a time.

 

My motto is "A little bit of caution will beat a whole lot of risk every time."

Edited July 1, 2021 by knuckleharley

[joecoozie]

"There is this button on the left side near my steering column...I was under the impression my starter button was on the floor next to my clutch, is this actually the button? If not, what's it for? When I push it with the key on and battery in I do hear something start to wind up and maybe spin."

 

From what you said above it sounds like your starter is spinning but not engaging the gear to mesh with the Fluid Drive coupling ring gear in order to spin the engine.

 

If you want to see if the engine is free you can grab the fan blades and while pushing down on the fan belt for tension try to turn the fan blades which will, if the engine is free, spin/turn the engine.

Or you can remove the radiator and the fan blades- it is very easy - to get to the crank pulley nut to rotate the engine.

[Eneto-55]

On 6/30/2021 at 11:27 PM, knuckleharley said:

I had never even considered that since I have never seen one used,but if it gets hot enough to shrink the tubing it has to be a fire threat.

 

Remember,we are talking about 70 year old cloth coverings here,and dust all over under a dash.

I use a small hair dryer on the high setting to do shrink tubing.

[westaus29]

That little box looks like the horn relay. Not sure if the power lead is broken or else the lead to the horn.

 

For your tatty wiring in general, I would wrap with electrical tape for now to make things safe until you are in a position to spend time or money on it. That's what I did with my 38. There was a pile of spaghetti under my dash, some old and some new. It looked like every time there was a problem, they just ran a new wire and left the old one dangling. When you get your manual and a multi-meter you can start sorting it out.

 

Before going too far check if the engine turns over by hand. Take the plugs out first to make it easier.

 

The starter button on your dash feeds to a heavy duty relay which supplies the starter motor with a large current for starting. On my 38 the relay is mounted on the starter, on my 55 it is on the inside of the mudguard. Your manual will show you which, unless someone has made modifications which is always possible on a 73 year old car.

 

As said above, if you get a whirring sound when you press that button, the relay is working and the starter is turning over. The starter has a gear which should move outwards and engage with the flywheel and turn the engine over. With my 38 the relay on top of the starter pulls the gear outwards to the flywheel. With my 55, the gear moves outwards when the starter starts to spin because it slides on a spiral. So either it is not moving or teeth are missing on the flywheel ring gear. To check, take the starter off after first disconnecting the battery terminals and the starter wiring. You can test the starter on the bench with jumper leads. Be careful as it may jump! You should see the gear move outwards.

[knuckleharley]

5 hours ago, Eneto-55 said:

I use a small hair dryer on the high setting to do shrink tubing.

Thanks,I may try that if I ever need to splice modern wiring,but just am not wiling to risk it with old cloth wiring.

[chrysler1941]

9 hours ago, knuckleharley said:

Thanks,I may try that if I ever need to splice modern wiring,but just am not wiling to risk it with old cloth wiring.

If you don't use shrink tubing, you could repair the old cloth with liquid electrical tape. 

 

 

[Sam Buchanan]

There are places on the harness in my P15 where the cloth was worn away but if the original tape in the harness was opened up an inch or so the insulation was in very good condition since it hadn't been exposed to the elements and heat. I used a crimped butt splice to replace the frayed section of wire and install a new crimped connector.

 

I want to stress that I use a ratcheting crimper, not the cheap crimpers you see in auto parts stores. The ratcheting crimper is far superior since it guarantees a complete crimp each time and isn't dependent on the grip strength of the installer. I've used this type of crimper on many automotive and aviation projects with superb results. 

 

 

Here is the disaster I found behind the dash of the TR6 which was the aftermath of a huge hack job by a previous owner....note the multiple electrical tape "splices". Ughhhhh....

 

 

Here it is after sorting the harness, bundling common circuits with heat shrink tubing and replacing the taped splices with crimped butt splices. Much better.

 

 

There is a lot that can be done to rejuvenate the harnesses on our old Mopars if good wiring practices are followed. Stripping everything out and replacing it is not always necessary.

 

The terminal block in the front of the P15 where the lights and horn wires connect was a corroded and frayed mess. Here is the new terminal block with the frayed wires trimmed back, heat sleeving added as needed and new connectors installed. Good for another 70 years. 

 

Edited July 2, 2021 by Sam Buchanan

[Eneto-55]

1 hour ago, Sam Buchanan said:

There are places on the harness in my P15 where the cloth was worn away but if the original tape in the harness was opened up an inch or so the insulation was in very good condition since it hadn't been exposed to the elements and heat.

 

I did the same thing on mine back in 1980, splicing in cloth covered wire my brother & I had stripped out of other cars we were scrapping out.  But now when I examined the wiring again, it is brittle everywhere, including up above the headliner.  And the car was stored inside since I bought it in 1980.  It just got too brittle for me to trust it anymore.  So now I'm slowing figuring out how much wire I need of each color and gauge, and plan to purchase marine grade wiring.  (I know it will out-last me, but I live in the Ohio salt belt, and will probably use the car as a daily driver in all but the worst weather.  Cars are made to be driven.  I'll just need to be sure to always wash off the undercarriage on a regular basis during the winter.)

[chrysler1941]

9 hours ago, Eneto-55 said:

I did the same thing on mine back in 1980, splicing in cloth covered wire my brother & I had stripped out of other cars we were scrapping out.  But now when I examined the wiring again, it is brittle everywhere, including up above the headliner.  And the car was stored inside since I bought it in 1980.  It just got too brittle for me to trust it anymore.  So now I'm slowing figuring out how much wire I need of each color and gauge, and plan to purchase marine grade wiring.  (I know it will out-last me, but I live in the Ohio salt belt, and will probably use the car as a daily driver in all but the worst weather.  Cars are made to be driven.  I'll just need to be sure to always wash off the undercarriage on a regular basis during the winter.)

Please add an extra fuse for headliner interior lamp wiring. These are hot even when ignition off. Someone I know had a 37 Cadillac. Cloth isolation was brittle, while in garage, touched roof, heated wiring red hot and headliner burned car to the ground.

[Sam Buchanan]

35 minutes ago, chrysler1941 said:

Please add an extra fuse for headliner interior lamp wiring. These are hot even when ignition off. Someone I know had a 37 Cadillac. Cloth isolation was brittle, while in garage, touched roof, heated wiring red hot and headliner burned car to the ground.

 

Hmm....interesting point.

 

I looked at the schematic for the P15 then went out to the car for a reality check. The dome light on my car is protected by the fuse on the headlight switch. 

 

But thanks for the heads-up, glad I checked.

[knuckleharley]

Quote

 

I have been sick and/or injured the last several years,so I haven't been doing any work on anything,and completly forgot about liquid plastic,which has s brush in the can. Wipe down the old cloth insulation to clean it,clean the exposed wire,and coat both with the liquid insulation.

 

No,it is NOT a good substitute for good wire,but what it is,is something that will protect your car from ground shorts until you can rewire it.

[knuckleharley]

3 hours ago, chrysler1941 said:

If you don't use shrink tubing, you could repair the old cloth with liquid electrical tape. 

 

 

ACK! I just made a post about liquid tape!

 

That's what I get for posting before reading the whole thread.

 

Good stuff for temporary protection against shorts. Nothing wrong with the liquid tape itself,but it is no better than the surface you are coating with it.

[Eneto-55]

This liquid tape, is it available in lots of colors?  Can it be thinned? 

 

The reason I ask is that because of cost and wire quality considerations, I will not be using the cloth-covered wire.  I kinda' don't like that, because the plastic stuff looks really WRONG on these old cars.  So I've done some research on this woven fire-resistant sheath stuff you can get, and I've thought of covering all of the exposed wires (not the wire itself being exposed, but the insulator, like where the wire comes out of the areas that are wrapped) with that stuff, then using some sort of flexible paint to make them the correct colors and tint, to somewhat match the original colors.  Most places under the hood the exposed lengths of the wire is not actually very great.  (Not sure if I would bother with it in the trunk, or under the dash, probably not, unless I needed to in order to be able to match the appearance on both ends of a given wire.)   I started thinking about this because the wire insulation inside my heater motor was really toast, extremely brittle, more than anywhere else I've looked.  (This sort of fire-resistant sheathing is commonly used inside electric heaters, irons, and high wattage light fixtures.  I have collected some pieces from stuff my electrician bro-in-law throws out, and have also gotten samples from some suppliers.)

[DJ194950]

From only one experience with Liquid tape I hated it no resistant to wear at all.

 

I worked with rental construction lifts etc. and that product would Never hold up. Totally disappointed with it as a quick- easy repair and never used again.

Your choice. I will never use it again.

 

DJ

[Young Ed]

Last time I grabbed some at Menards I believe they had black white red and green

[chrysler1941]

Just info for those who like the period correct look, there are now shrink tubing produced looking like braided wiring.

I've used them for my heavy gauge battery cables

 

 

Edited July 3, 2021 by chrysler1941

[knuckleharley]

Unbelievable!

 

You just KNOW the market for this has to be minischule,yet,THERE it is!

[Purple Moo Cow]

I have purchased and received my book for my dodge which has some basic wiring schematics for the car. It has helped me to understand that someone before me definitely moved a few things around. I've gone in and replaced most of the parts of the wire that were exposed, and therefor degraded and exposing the copper. I also purchased 2/0 gauge battery cables because I assumed like a silly goose that the cables were 2/0 but they weren't. I've had the battery on a trickle charger and yet still with everything hooked up, I'm getting nothing. So, I pulled the starter with solenoid attached and brought it to autozone where they attempted to test it and told me it failed. Now, I know they test based on starters in their system and my starter is too old to be in there system. What I am wondering though is it possible my solenoid is no good? Is there a way I can check to see if it's the solenoid vs the starter that might be giving me an issue? Also, is there a way to spin the engine with the fly wheel exposed to see if the motor is free? Or is it unrealistic to think I could turn the flywheel by hand. If the engine is seized...then what?

[greg g]

Is the solenoid separate or mounted on the starter?  If separate you should be able to check it with a jumper wire to the small terminal and a circuit probe to see if it is connecting and passing currant.  You can also jump from the bat/ery side terminal to the starter side terminal with an old pair of pliers.  Yes there will be sparks and it will try to weld the pliers in place ,but it wor.ks.  you should be able to be.nch test the starter using jumper cable.s by hooking To the battery direct. Positive cable to one of the mounting ears, and momentary touch of negative to starter terminal. Yes there will be sparks again, but starter should spin if it's working. 

[Plymouthy Adams]

in truth, the newly purchased book should have a good tutorial on the test and repair of the starter in and out of the vehicle.....simple tools only, VOM is a must if working any electrical issues.

[Purple Moo Cow]

@greg g it has the solenoid attached, and I briefly tried bridging the connection with a screwdriver, but will likely try it while the starter is out with jumper cables. 

 

@Plymouthy Adams yes the book does have the walk through of testing it, I assumed the tester at the store was doing the same basic things but I have a friend coming over later to check out the car and we will likely attempt testing it externally directly from the battery just with jumper cables. 

 

Any chance anyone knows if the starter should also be directly grounded to something while in the car via a wire? 

 

Also, how do you tell which bolt on the generator is for the A connection and the F connection?

[Plymouthy Adams]

the starter can be grounded to the case out of the car and on the bench same as installed.   Do yourself a favor and do a voltage drop test on your cables prior to getting deep into the starter itself.  You may be surprised at the very poor condition of your cabling.   It would be good to also do a current draw test under load if you have a clip on amp meter or a amp probe that converts mA into amperage on your hand held meter...the specs you looking for are in the book also if not...post...we get you them from a Plymouth book...the Plymouth book is in greater detail in many sections of the manual.

[greg g]

Of the  two generator terminals, note the diameter of the terminal. The thicker is the armature, the thin one is field.

Edited July 11, 2021 by greg g

[allbizz49]

Try to turn and move the bendix by hand while your starter is out. When I first bought my 53, the starter wouldn't turn. I pulled it out and tried to jump it out of the car, it barely moved. I pulled it apart and the bendix gear was packed with hard old grease where it ran on the shaft.. I cleaned it spotless then regreased it. Has worked perfectly ever since doing so. Not trying to discount Aitozone employee knowledge but most of those guys only know what the computer tells them. I bought a 6 volt battery there and the guy couldn't believe I was using it to start my car, haha. Good luck and keep chipping away, you'll get it.

[chrysler1941]

Yes you can turn flywheel if with a special tool. Works fantastic

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/233934167425?hash=item3677901d81:g:kjAAAOSwR7RgD4l8