My p15 steers like a shopping cart.

[jgreg53]

Can it be aligned with slop in the steering?

[Jerry Roberts]

Get the slop out first . 

[jgreg53]

Can it be aligned with slop in the steering?

[Plymouthy Adams]

alignment is possible if your play is sector related only....if your chassis components are good....then yes...do not look for a steering wheel to be dead center and stay as such while driving...going to be like playing a 10 lb bass on 2 lb line....jgoing to be all over the place before you land it...

 

Read your segment on adjusting the sector...not just the worm...odds are by now you may have to adjust the bearings...worth a few minutes to investigate

[Andydodge]

best thing is to find out exactly what is causing it..............worn kingpins, tie rod ends, bearings in the steering box, pitman shaft bushes, the steering box to chassis isolator rubbers are also an overlooked part that when old and softened by years of oil allow the steering box to actually move even tho' the box is firmly bolted to the frame...........also what sort of tyres are you using?............bias ply or cross ply tyres wander all over the road, also check tyre pressures...........lots to look at..........as far as getting the front end aligned it depends on how much slop.................what does the alignment shop guy say?...............andyd 

[Dan Hiebert]

Many folks tend to compare the steering of these old cars with more modern cars and call it sloppy...which it is when compared, but is actually just how these old cars handled.  Not fair to make the comparison in the first place in my book.  The steering out of alignment may be a contributing factor to the slop you mention, so in investigating the steering issues you're concerned about, you should indeed ensure the alignment is correct, along with what the gentlemen above wrote.        

[ggdad1951]

threads merged

[jgreg53]

My biggest complaint is a hard pull to the right. Rotating the tires didn't make a difference.

[kencombs]

Typically a caster problem.  Camber  usually causes tire wear without pulling.   Toe can do it if it is really out on one side.

[Frank Elder]

2 hours ago, jgreg53 said:

My biggest complaint is a hard pull to the right. Rotating the tires didn't make a difference.

Rotating the tires won't affect your steering unless you have one tire that is sloped like a ski ramp. Then you have worse things to worry about.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Frank Elder

[kencombs]

1 hour ago, Frank Elder said:

Rotating the tires won't affect your steering unless you have one tire that is sloped like a ski ramp. Then you have worse things to worry about.

Mostly true.  With one exception that comes to mind.  Radials with a broken or misplaced belts will cause a pull, and will of course move with the tire.

 

I've seen a lot of those ski ramp tires, mostly when guys drive with camber all screwed up and/or badly worn ball joints, which was the cause of camber issue.

[jgreg53]

I can set up the steering box so it is easier to steer, but then I have a great deal of play. Then I set it up to have less play and then it's a bear to turn.

[Los_Control]

Just now, jgreg53 said:

I can set up the steering box so it is easier to steer, but then I have a great deal of play. Then I set it up to have less play and then it's a bear to turn.

My limited steering box skills comes from driving Ford trucks. They all needed adjustment.

Proper way to adjust them is to loosen the lock nut then tighten the adjustment screw 1/4 of a turn .... thats all you get .... tighten the lock nut.

 

The gears are like a wedge, they wear equally together. 1/4 turn will usually take the slop out & drive very decent.

If that 1/4 turn is not enough .... you are stuck with it for awhile & let the gears wear down .... depending how often you drive it 6-12 months?

Then give it another 1/4 turn. ......

 

On a 1987 Ford work van I bought it very cheap $1k with a rebuilt transmission & crate engine installed. The contractor traded for it, because it drove like a shopping cart his employees would not drive it.

I bought it & drove it home .... did 1/4 turn & it drove beautiful for the next 12-15 years .... thumb & finger to steer it.

 

I had a 1969 Ford 1 ton that was pretty bad. I adjusted it same 1/4 turn and it was much better ..... not great. Then after several months of daily driving I adjusted it again & was really good then.

I drove it daily for 3 or 4 years, one day on my way to work the steering box gear broke. Lucky I was still in my driveway heading for the road. It was incredibly difficult to back up the driveway to the house .... took 1 or 2 full revolutions of the steering wheel to make the wheels turn .... would have been death on the freeway.

 

I'm only suggesting when you adjust a steering box, you do it in very small increments. Because of the wedge shape of the gears if you make them too tight will be difficult to steer .... but also may cause irregular wear.

They will wear .... there is only so many adjustments available .... too many adjustments & the gears will wear too thin & break.

 

Only advice I can offer is to loosen it up where it is easy to turn & drive-able.  Then adjust a 1/16" or 1/8 of a turn ...... Because you have change the adjustment soo much already, a 1/4 turn may be too much.

If these small little changes does not fix your problem, you may need to rebuild the box and change the gears

[jgreg53]

I've rebuilt the box already. The adjustment screw is turned down as far as it will go. I need new gears but they're hard to find and pricey.

[Los_Control]

Just now, jgreg53 said:

I've rebuilt the box already. The adjustment screw is turned down as far as it will go. I need new gears but they're hard to find and pricey.

There you go .... Those gears break while driving .... You may as well remove the steering wheel & hand it to your passenger .... you drive awhile.

 

I wonder how interchangeable the truck & car steering boxes are? .... I have no clue.

There is a guy on Face Book named Douglas Crozier that is very active in buying pilothouse trucks 48-50 and selling parts from them .... and shipping them. He is located in Kansas.

Typically, a old farm truck may not get as many miles on it as a car? ..... It might be a good solution,  If the accessories like wheel & column cover can be swapped.

If interested & you can not find him, pm me and will dig up his info.

[D35 Torpedo]

Since you just rebuilt it, I'm sure you know how it works. And ill assume you shimmed the worm gear bearings snug. Turning the adjuster in, lifts the sector to mesh the gears tighter. ( if i remember correctly) It's best to lift the front wheels off the ground so you can feel how tight it is. The play will be in the sector. The round gear gets end play and general slop on the pin. All you can do is tighten it up as much as is bearable, then live with it. Sectors are available and are expensive. Don't worry thought, there isn't much that can catastrophically fail.

[Loren]

I have two Model A Fords, a 29 and a 31. The 31 has a Gemmer box from a F 100 pickup. The thing is not adjusted right, its too tight.

The 29 had a very worn out stock steering gear and after evaluating it I found it hopeless. 29-30 Model As use the gas tank for the top mount of the column. If your steering gear is bad then cracks form in the tank leaking fuel on the driver’s legs. Happily this one is the only model that has a separate gas tank from the cowl so I didn’t have to paint the whole car to fix it.

Not to dive too deep in Fords, the steering gear in my 49 P17 is pretty much the same design. The sector goes downward instead of sideways but they work the same.

What I have learned from the F 100 Pickup Gemmer box is that the tapered roller bearings are the first and most important adjustment.

Tapered roller bearings require some preload ( more when new ). Most of the slop you get in the steering is from a lack of preload on those bearings. However, make them too tight and it will steer like my 31. Hard to turn and the spring back after completing a turn is not quite right. Sector adjustment on the top is not the way to remove slop. In fact I’d say leave it alone. If you look at the gear and sector, it is basically a “worm gear”. The worm is curved to accommodate the arc of the sector. The worm of course will wear at the straight ahead point ( in the middle or smallest diameter ). So if you monkey around with the sector adjustment to get the slop out while going straight the gears will be too tight at full or near full lock and they might even stick there in extreme cases.

If you had the steering gear out of the car on the bench you could easily try it to see what I am saying. If you can detect any minute movement when pulling or pushing on the steering wheel, then those bearings are way out of adjustment. I am sure at the factory they used dial indicators and spring scales to adjust them.

 

The first thing I did when I got my P17 was put some lube in the steering gear. Now the pittman arm is covered in oil….the seal leaks. So I resolved to replace the seal and adjust the preload on the tapered roller bearings. The price for a seal from the mail order suppliers is $35. NAPA sells a CR ( formerly known as Chicago Rawhide now owned by SKF ) seal for $12 and change. Yes it is in their catalog. I’ve got all the sheet metal off the front of my car and I had planned to replace the seal and take pictures and describe how it should be done.

Take the pittman arm off, then the bolts from the sector cover. There is a T slot in the top of the sector which is engaged with the adjustment bolt. Do not loosen the adjustment! Just get the cover free from the housing and push the sector up until you can slide the cover off the sector. You can slide the sector completely out. Disconnect the horn wire from the relay ( on my 49 its a bullet connector ) and remove the cover from the steering shaft bearing. There are paper gaskets there that are the adjustment medium for the bearing. Be careful with them! You can remove one of the bearings and have a look at its condition. You can also see the worm gear from above. Very carefully separate one of the gaskets from the pack. There are three thicknesses. Try removing the thinest one first. Put the gaskets and cover back on and check the steering effort. Too tight, put the gasket back in. Still loose try putting the thin one back in and take out a thicker one. ( yes its that close ) Once you’re satisfied change the seal and drop the sector and cover back in. You can bolt everything up and add some lube. Take a drive and if you still think your steering is too sloppy you can try one space on the sector adjustment but that’s about all I would do. I assume the factory knew what they were doing.

 

A couple of thoughts on alignment. Radial tires perform better with more caster than the old cars specified ( 7 degrees is mentioned ) Also the old Plymouths had very little if any toe-in. Most late model cars have much more. Toe-in contributes to holding straight line steering. So if you can give your alignment guy the factory specs and ask for a little more toe-in you might just eliminate the wander. I can almost guarantee the alignment guys will only set the toe.

[Saskwatch]

Loren - Thank you for this , how to make the steering adjustment, … would you have the NAPA part number for that 

 SKF / CR  pitman shaft seal please ? 
 Thank you  ?

[Loren]

I am out of town right now but I know its in their catalog. The counter guys can look it up.

[Sniper]

If I have sorted it out right, the MoPar PN is 639837.

 

According to Rock Auto that crosses to SKF 12336, $5.11 at RA.  $13.49 at Napa

 

 

[D35 Torpedo]

Usually I would agree with Loren about the wear being mostly in the middle, and therefore when adjusted, be to tight on the periphery. Because that's how it is for a modern recirulating ball steering box. However, I found that to not be the case with my steering box. The further I got from center, the more play there was. 

[Loren]

2 hours ago, D35 Torpedo said:

Usually I would agree with Loren about the wear being mostly in the middle, and therefore when adjusted, be to tight on the periphery. Because that's how it is for a modern recirulating ball steering box. However, I found that to not be the case with my steering box. The further I got from center, the more play there was. 

 

If the middle part of the worm is worn so much that the teeth are binding rather than turning the sector that would explain the behavior you are describing. The only fix would be to change the worm and the sector roller.

The problem is the vertical sector shaft requires an oil seal to keep the oil in. Once the seal dies nobody ever checks the steering gear oil and it goes metal to metal.

 

 There is also the possibility of something bent. I had a Mercedes that had a steering gear that just did not feel right. I tried adjusting it and finally I saw the imprint of the right front upper ball joint in fender liner above the wheel! The 90+ year old driver must have clobbered a curb. Once I changed the steering gear it was much happier.

[D35 Torpedo]

1 hour ago, Loren said:

 

If the middle part of the worm is worn so much that the teeth are binding rather than turning the sector that would explain the behavior you are describing. The only fix would be to change the worm and the sector roller.

 

I don't understand how a worn worm would cause binding, only play. The wear on the worm and roller is minuscule compared to that of the roller and pin. These are slow moving parts. Even without oil, they can go without wear for a very long time. The roller and pin get hammered out from road impacts like potholes. Once the roller has slop, the sector can freely move. In the center, both gears are square to each others. The roller is loaded evenly against the pin. At this point only end play can be exploited. But at either end the roller isn't loaded evenly. It has less tooth engagement and forces are vectored. Now end play has a greater effect and pin slop is now a factor. Hence, greater play off of center. There is zero adjustment to be made on the worm. Just shim the bearings to zero lash. All the adjustment is in the sector screw. The same forces that hammer the roller and pin take out the bearings over time. Anyway, that's my full analysis based on my findings and experience. 

[Plymouthy Adams]

HOW.....as it is, majority of the time the turning of the wheel in the manner of street driving the worm gears are meshing and remaining in and about center.  This is where the initial and most wear over the ages has taken place.  Enter the wrench and the manner to try to set the worm now close to the gear in this area to remove this play and most are successful in doing this, but, the problem arises when you now turn the wheel more and outside this worn area and there is now no free play between the gears and instead you get moderate to heavy binding depending on the amount of wear that was adjusted out midrange.  This hard steering in this manner will accelerate wear now and quicky your mid range slop will likely be back to visit.  Also the steering may not want to return to center without you the operator forcibly turning the wheel back the other way.  

[jgreg53]

I added a thin shim between the lower race and the end cover. Play is better. Haven't driven it yet.

Edited March 18, 2023 by jgreg53