Tick, tick

[DonaldSmith]

Last April, I awoke my 47 DeSoto Suburban from a six-month slumber.  The car started right up, after a few jabs to the gas pedal, and ran nicely.  But the brakes pulled to the left, until a few miles of panic stops in the neighborhood straightened things out.   The car went back to slumber until a few weeks ago.   Then I figured I had better prepare the car for crossing an international border for a car show early next month.  This time, I inspected the brakes, performed some incantations over them, and the brakes are behaving again. (See a recent thread about brakes pulling.) 

 

But since the July awakening, there has been a persistent tick, tick sound from the engine. The vacuum gauge needle reacts to the ticks.  I pulled the spark plugs. They are evenly sooted.  Compression is 105 to 115 for all cylinders except No. 2:  85 to 90.   Perhaps a valve is not fully closing?  My one year of mechanical experience, repeated sixty times, suggests some options: 

 

1.  Ignore it.  It may go away as things free up?  Or live with it.   (Is the ticking harmless, or is the engine destroying itself?)

2.  Put some magic potion in the oil, and let it do its magic. 

3.  Bite the bullet, jack up the car, remove the wheel and fender access panel and the valve covers, and have a look.  Maybe Cylinder No 2 needs some valve adjustment? 

 

I have a little over two weeks before the car show.  (It may take me that long to put in a full day's work.)   

Opinions and wise advice would be graciously appreciated.   

      

[chris 48 P15]

look at thread about oil additives before adding anything to oil

 

[LazyK]

Arm chair shade tree mechanic guess is a loose valve adjustment. Better a little loose than to tight.

Second SWAG an exhaust leak

Edited July 23 by LazyK

[keithb7]

I’d check the exhaust manifold for gasket leaks.  If it still ticks check valve clearances. Might as well perform a valve set.  Have a listen at the carb intake. Is tick sound coming from intake? 

[DonaldSmith]

True to my latest saying, it took a week or two to do a full day's work, investigating the tick, tick sound in my DeSoto flathead. 

Possible manifold leak?  I snugged up all the manifold nuts, including the bottom center hidden one. 

Valve adjustment?  I adjusted the valves.  I think I got them all.   Hard working under there, at my age. 

 

Results?  No good.  I still have the loud tick, most noticeable at idle, but still audible at speed, among the other engine noises.  Other than that, the car runs well. 

 

I'm planning a 20-mile trip to a car show in Windsor this weekend.  Is my car going to self-destruct?  

 

[soth122003]

I don't think the 20 mile trip will ruin the engine, but with that #2 pulling the lower compression, it may be a little carboned up. Your next step would be to pull the head and check the valves and seats, and check the pistons while your in there. 

 

You might try a little seafoam in the engine oil and gas tank (directions on the bottle). Drive conservatively (about 40 to 50 miles over a few days) and listen and see if the tick gets better. If it gets better it might have been some carbon build up that got loose. My guess is the valves, since you said the vacuum gage reacted to ticks. Either way, with what you have done so far, I'd say to pull the head next.

 

Joe Lee

[desoto1939]

I have read that when you have carbon buildup you can start the car and let it come to regular idle. Take the air cleaner off the carb get a small bottle of distill water and then increase the speed of the engine and pour some water down the carb and keep the rpm's up. This should also remove the carbon build up if you have any.

You do not pout the entire bottle of water directly all at the same time just a little at a time. It is like steam cleaning the entire internals.

 

I have done this on my 39 Desoto. It might work but go slow and a little at a time on the water.

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[DonaldSmith]

Update:  

 

Son-in-law and I drove 16 miles to Windsor last Friday, schmoozed with the Chrysler restorers, did the show Saturday, and came home.   Tick-tick be damned. 

This last week, I tried smoking out a possible exhaust leak, dribbling distilled water, and even Sea Foam, down the carburetor.  The engine labored, but no smoke. 

 

So maybe it's not an exhaust tick-tick.   It's loudest at low speed pulling, like backing in reverse, riding the brake, till the car nudges the chunk of tire at the back wall. 

 

A bearing going somewhere?  I may have to overcome my reluctance to take the car to a mechanic.  There's got to be a good vintage flathead mechanic in the Detroit area.   

[Bob Riding]

I had a ticking noise on my 40 Dodge Business coupe after a rebuild and it turned out to be a loose wrist pin. Came from Egge. replaced it and the ticking went away.

[DonaldSmith]

The engine was rebuilt 20 years ago, after the No.6 rod bearing failed.  It's gone 3,500 miles since.   

The car is not a  trailer queen, but not taken out much.   

I need to find a mechanic who can diagnose and fix the problem.  Or else throw in the towel.  I'm in my early 80's, with back and hip problems. 

[soth122003]

Something you might try. Check out the independent garages in your area. If they can't/won't work on it, Ask them to recommend some one, or see if one of the mechanics there will freelance to you. $100.00 a day for Saturday and Sunday with your/our know how and the shop manual just to crawl around the car and maybe pull the head and the oil pan to check things out. All you have to do is watch and order parts if need be. About the only difference in these old cars and new ones if fuel injection, tighter tolerances, and relocated parts. The engines still use lifters, valves, pistons and spark plugs their just moved around a bit.

 

Joe Lee

 

"Flying an airplane is just like riding a bike. It's just harder to playing cards in the spokes."

[Sam Buchanan]

$100 might cover two hours of shop time!  😁

[Sniper]

2 hours ago, Sam Buchanan said:

$100 might cover two hours of shop time!  😁

 

Been awhile since you been to a shop?

 

$100 might cover one hour, if you are lucky.  Closer to half an hour in a lot of places.

 

https://www.motor.com/2023/05/a-look-at-shop-labor-rates-across-the-country/

 

Mind you that's over a year old.

[desoto1939]

Around the area here in Valley Forge Pa which is the suburbs of Philly the regular car mechanics are getting upto 170-190 per hour.

 

So even if you can find a good old school mechanic you need some deep pockets for their work and diagnostic skills.

 

If you do not have a lift then you will have to pay their going fees.

 

And as you also stated that you are getting older so crawling under a car is harder.

 

Every couple of years I take the car back to him for a total look over to keep the car running and as a safety inspection. In the state of Pa there is no state inspection on antique cars, you as the owner have to make sure the car is safe to operate. So why risk any possible issues spend the money to insure you and your family are safe in your antique car, mine is 85 years old so compare that to our aging bodies and the cost of just keeping us in good health.

 

I just had the king pins, lower outer two control bushing, alignment, brake hoses, rebuild front wheel cylinders with NOS one, new install emergency brake cable, total inspection of the entire car flushed the entire brake system. the cost was not cheap he had the car in his garage almost the entire month of Feb and granted he did not work on the car everyday but when he was done the car was perfect.  I did not have the lift to do the work and also the experience to do the work.

 

The money spent was worth it to me and now the car tracks straight with my hands off the steering wheel and the front end is much tighter.

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[Sam Buchanan]

1 hour ago, Sniper said:

 

Been awhile since you been to a shop?

 

$100 might cover one hour, if you are lucky.  Closer to half an hour in a lot of places.

 

https://www.motor.com/2023/05/a-look-at-shop-labor-rates-across-the-country/

 

Mind you that's over a year old.

 

I was thinking in terms of a good-ol'-boy rate that Joe was suggesting.

 

And yes, it has been a long time since I've been in a shop, never had anything on my old cars farmed out except for having the TR6 head machined locally.

[Sniper]

I dunno, my time is worth something to me, especially when it's 100+ degrees out.  To be honest this is one of those deals that'll either cost nothing because the mechanic is interested in doing the job or cost a lot because he isn't, lol.

 

For example, If Los wanted a hand on his truck, I'd do it for free because of the comradery.  Some unknown character that wanted the same?  Probably quote a price that'll either run him off, or really make it worth my time to do it.   But I don't do that for a living so I don't need to work or the word of mouth.

 

One related thing, might even be helpful.  When I changed the exhaust out on the ex's Canyon I had a trick to find leaks.  Here's a video on my SIL using that trick, I was filming.

 

 

 

[soth122003]

1 hour ago, desoto1939 said:

Around the area here in Valley Forge Pa which is the suburbs of Philly the regular car mechanics are getting upto 170-190 per hour.

Is that the shop rate or the mechanic rate? I've met a mechanic or two who rated that much, but i garentee it wasn't cars they were working on. At my best as a helicopter mechanic was $600.00 a day and that equals about $75 an hour (8 hr day) in a war zone.

 

Joe Lee

[kencombs]

The fact that the vacuum gauge reading is in synch with the tick indicates something is amiss, not just an exhaust leak.   Probably #2, but I'd recommend a leakdown test to see where the lost compression is going.   Noises that happen once per revolution can be a lot of things.   Bearing, not likely at idle.   Something on top of a piston?   Any chance a screw/nut or something was dropped into the  intake?   Something blocking the valve from closing could  hold the valve open slightly or if on the piston could cause a tick.   I've seen lots of pistons with witness marks on them from carb butterfly screws and other FOD.   And the pieces often get broken in two so could concieveably cause both symtoms.

A leakdown may help and and a cheap camera attachment for a smart phone could pinpoint. 

 

[Hickory]

If the tick coincides with a vacuum variance then the bearings are not the problem. You need to do a leak-down test as suggested or pull the head. I would do the leak down test personally. This you could probably do even if you don't have the tool. Use a rubber tipped air-gun and keep the engine from turning. Listen for the air leaking, is it the carb, the exhaust or mostly the crankcase. This will give you a plan to move forward.

[Hickory]

Donald are you a member of national DeSoto club, if so there will be alot of names and numbers listed for your area in the yearly member listing.

[Los_Control]

I feel you have more experience then you are letting on .... And you have common sense to go with it.

 

When I first woke my engine from a 20+ year sleep it had a loud tick. .... I made a video and all said check the valves..

I only made the video because I was happy it was running ..... I let the engine run and the tick just went away.

 

I know the difference between the clack   clack   clack of a rod bearing, or the clunk   clunk   clunk of a main crankshaft bearing ..... A tick   tick   tick is in the valve train somewhere ....  And just went away in my case the longer I ran the engine.

 

Driving the car locally around town for daily errands and such may be enough to just bring it back around .... the 20 mile drive may be the best thing for it.

[DonaldSmith]

Thanks, guys, for something to chew on.  I don't remember losing any screws or other objects, but I could be wrong.     

 

Vacuum gauge - It's on the cowl, so the car is idling nicely when I see the gauge.  Just a slight flutter.   I can locate the gauge so that I can see it from the driver's seat, to check for gauge flutter as the engine is loaded, as in reverse with the car already against the back wall. 

 

Boroscope?  Yes, no. 2 had the lower compression.  That's a hint.  The spark plug is over the valves.  I'll see what I can see with my HF scope.  Years ago, a guest was able to see the combustion chamber on his slant six.  (That was OHV.  The scope showed the piston, but not the valves.   But that's what he wanted to check.  No loose screws.) 

 

Leakdown test?  I don't have a rubber tipped air gun.   Maybe the mechanic of my dreams will have one, and will find a screw loose (in the combustion chamber). 

 

National DeSoto Club.  Yep.  A few years ago, the Great Lakes guys gave me a lead on mechanics.  Maybe I can dig out the list. 

 

Somethings to check this week.      

[DonaldSmith]

Vacuum gauge:  Idle, 19, barely perceptible flutter.  Reverse, backed up to teh back wall, loud tick or slap, vacuum gauge at 14, no flutter. 

 

[DonaldSmith]

What is the wisdom of the assembled multitude? 

Engine under low speed load, slap. slap, slap, vacuum down to 14, no needle flutter? 

Does that eliminate valve issues?  Where does that leave me?

 

Yes, I still have to look for a mechanic.  In the meantime I can surmise, I suppose,   

[Sam Buchanan]

Since you have already tried some valid checks my next step would be to use a stethoscope to try to find out best as possible the general area where the sound is originating. That might narrow down the options for you.......hope you find a solution soon.