Water Pumps

[Young Ed]

I believe the last time I bought a rebuilt one that the core charge was $3 so I think they want out of that business......

[1948mopar]

I have new waterpump from NAPA and am ready to install. Previous installer did not teflon tape or anti-seaze the bolts, so the two that went into the water jacket broke. Got them out with a little heat and care. My question is what length are the bolts that go into the water jacket? A 1 1/2 inch bolt seems too short and 2 inch bolt seems too long. Not having luck in finding something 1 3/4 inch. Would someone know if a 2 inch bolt is the correct length? I don't want to damage anything using an incorrect bolt.

Thanks for any help you can give me...

Edited September 5, 2013 by 1948mopar

[Merle Coggins]

I don't know the answer to your question, but if you feel 1-3/4" bolt is the ideal length, why not cut 1/4" off a 2" bolt and use it?

[jcmiller]

I'm done with NAPA.  The rebuilt pump I ordered did not have the flange to allow the external bypass setup and was difficult to spin by hand.  When we looked at it more closely, we discovered that the housing was broken from when they pressed in the new internals.  I guess I'll get mine rebuilt after all.

[JBNeal]

During some office cleanup, I found the '04 receipt for the new-style pump I put in the '48 (65 bucks!). I picked it up from Terrill Machine in DeLeon (same place I got my fuel pump repair & carb kits), though I don't know for sure if it's sourced from NAPA or the actual rebuild service

[desoto1939]

Yes there are special Miller water pump tools. The is a puller to pullthe  end that hold the pull and fan blade.  Then ther is a tool to pulland installthe two innter busings. There also is a tool to  chase the two inner bushing and also a tool that is used to face the internal section of the bushing.  I have these  and also a special tool to locate the hole in the main rod that hold the flange to center the hole to drillthe hole inthe main rod that goes throught the pully.

 

I have all of these tools, Miller Tools.  Alos note that the rebuild kits if found run about 45-60 dollars sometime you can get a rebuilt WP for the same amount and do not have to worry about if you did the job correctly.  So spend 60 for a kit or 70-90 for a pump that you just install and then go for a ride.

 

Some people like to fix other like to replace.  Inthe old days they fixed them at the dealership.

 

Rich HArtung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[desoto1939]

I will try to post pictures of the tools later tonight and willpost on both the Truck and Car side of the forum.

 

rich hartung

[James_Douglas]

I have a very expensive water pump that was rebuilt by a shop here in northern California in my 1947 Desoto Suburban. The man that owns the shop is into Dodge trucks and had a run of brass impellers made that can be used in the MOPAR flathead pumps.  They do need machine work to fit the particular application. (He runs a big pump outfit).

 

These impellers seem to flow more at low rpm.  Good in traffic and will never rust out. The only problem is that he will not sell the impellers. So you have to send him a core.  You get a very good sealed shaft and bearing and the brass impeller, but it costs like $250.  I did one and it has worked great for 6000 miles.  HOWEVER, in the last week I pulled on the fan and guess what? It is moving.  No leaks but something at the shaft level is not correct.  I am pulling in when I get off the computer today.

 

As to the hole or no hole issue.  You can see below that my original 1947 did not have the hole and the NAPA (Airtex) does.  I just welded up the hole and this type of backing plate has been fine for like 10 years.

 

[Phil363]

Availability has been an ongoing issue with the NAPA water pump.  I had found out about these water pumps from the article written on Moparforum and I reckon Airtex has a run of new pumps every few years or so when they feel they can maximize profit on them.  I'm just glad they are still available

 

 

I did a little research on Napaonline. It looks like their water pump may dual purpose. The same pump is listed from '48 - 53. (I didn't go beyond that) From the pictures it looks like it has the right top flange for the external setup. It also looks like it has a heater return port below the radiator hose inlet. Interesting...

This is water part # NWP55713 which lists at $71.49

They also show a part # TFW42554 for $59.29 but there's no pictures for that one.

One of my side projects is getting ready to rebuild the engine so I looked at my pulleys, fan blade and have sandblasted and painted them and put the water pump off to the side until today.

 

I knew I had an internal engine water bypass as JB shows in his engine block and head photos but I also have the external bypass setup.  I was entertaining rebuilding the water pump until today until I opened up the back and saw all of the heavy scaling & build up.  Once I added all the rebuild costs up (and time) I decided just to buy a new one using Merle's NAPA the part number TFW 42554 I found here searching the forums today ... the cost of inflation has raised the price to $72.99 since 2007.

 

So I am just stopping by to say thank you for your old posts ... found them very beneficial today as always.

[_shel_ny]

One of my side projects is getting ready to rebuild the engine so I looked at my pulleys, fan blade and have sandblasted and painted them and put the water pump off to the side until today.

 

I knew I had an internal engine water bypass as JB shows in his engine block and head photos but I also have the external bypass setup.  I was entertaining rebuilding the water pump until today until I opened up the back and saw all of the heavy scaling & build up.  Once I added all the rebuild costs up (and time) I decided just to buy a new one using Merle's NAPA the part number TFW 42554 I found here searching the forums today ... the cost of inflation has raised the price to $72.99 since 2007.

 

So I am just stopping by to say thank you for your old posts ... found them very beneficial today as always.

 

 

You may find the Rock Auto price a bit easier to swallow

[Phil363]

You may find the Rock Auto price a bit easier to swallow

 

 

Thanks, forgot to check Rock auto out today .. $34.99 ($41.89 with shipping) is much better than $72.99 plus shipping.  Rock Auto has / is selling the exact same GATES model 42554 that NAPA is selling. 

 

Will actually order it is a few minutes ... thanks again

 

UPDATE: 19 Feb 2016.   I ordered the new water pump from Rock Auto (late Dec) and am very happy with the product.  It can be used either with an internal or external water bypass system.  Included was the required gaskets and a new "longer" bolt to replace the shorter bolt found on the older water pumps.  The bolt is needed due to the thickness of the attachment point of the new water pump.  Added two photos to show some new angles in addition to the ones that Merle posted earlier.

 

I really like the fact that the new water pump has a sealed bearing inside and does not need to be greased from time to time.

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  

Edited February 19, 2016 by Phil363

[Brent B3B]

Phil, I bought one from Rock Auto and I works great. When you get yours check the "back plate" that mounts facing the block (top photo you posted from Merle's ) might need to rvt seal that sucker before :^)

[Phil363]

Phil, I bought one from Rock Auto and I works great. When you get yours check the "back plate" that mounts facing the block (top photo you posted from Merle's ) might need to rvt seal that sucker before :^)

 

Will be sure to use some sealant there as well as the on the bolt threads that secure the water pump to the engine block and go into the water passages of the engine.

[_shel_ny]

Thanks, forgot to check Rock auto out today .. $34.99 ($41.89 with shipping) is much better than $72.99 plus shipping.  Rock Auto has / is selling the exact same GATES model 42554 that NAPA is selling. 

 

Will actually order it is a few minutes ... thanks again

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           

be sure to use the 5% discount code

 

 

3760578734215819

Edited December 30, 2015 by shel_ny

[pflaming]

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Posted August 24, 2013

All that having been said I have a question: does it take special tools to rebuild a water pump. I have two cores, would like to rebuild both of them.

 

My engine has an external water pump. I didn't catch that until the gasket leaked, then I had to get a different head, so now I have two internal heads, both squared and hardly used.

 

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Found this in my search. My water pump is Six plus years old, according to the above. Since I'm going to put in a new timing chain, I think I'll replace the pump also. Do others agree?

[Bob Riding]

On 8/24/2013 at 12:29 PM, JBNeal said:

Just to add my 2¢...I've had a few folks ask me about the differences between the internal & external bypass blocks/heads and water pump applications, specifically when installing the newer NAPA water pump which can work with either setup.  While going through some boxes of parts I've acquired recently, I found an external bypass water pump with an internal bypass backing plate, as well as a newer NAPA water pump (pictured on the right).  The external bypass pump casting does not allow coolant flow through the internal bypass backing plate, and drilling through this area of the casting can be difficult without cracking the rest of the casting.  Also shown in this pic is a '50 218 without internal bypass; the location of the internal bypass port would be in the area pointed to in this pic, and a sharp eye may notice that an internal bypass water pump & head gasket have been mounted to this external bypass block.

 

The red block pictured is a '54 230 with the internal bypass.  The bypass passage is pointed out in the block & the head; the 'hump' in the head can be seen as well.

 

The assembled engine is a '52 218 with the internal bypass head and thermostat housing (water neck).  The fewer parts required made for a more economical assembly; with one less hose to leak, it also is a more reliable assembly.

Just found this excellent thread. I have a 1950 (P20) 218 engine that came from a local hotrod shop- a young guy in Kerman CA who collect and restores 1950 Plymouth Suburbans. He sold me this motor with a Wilcap adapter that will allow it to bolt up to a GM automatic tranny (I'm using a TH 200 4R) He said it was running and driving great when he had it, but the 218 didn't have enough off-the-line power for him. It has the '53 and later internal bypass thermostat, and it looks just like JM's pictures above, including a newer NAPA water pump. Am I understanding correctly that even though the NAPA water pump will work with both pre and post '52 block designs, using the internal type on the older external blocks will lead to warmup and/or operational problems?

 

[JBNeal]

The newer style water pumps will accommodate both internal bypass and external bypass blocks as they have the bypass hole in the pump casting and back plate.  With external bypass blocks, this pump bypass hole is blocked off by the engine block and sealed with the water pump gasket.  The newer style pump should not have any performance difference in warmup nor overall performance as the pump design is based on the original external and internal bypass designs...if anything, the newer pumps (if built well) should be maintenance free as late model pumps are since they use coolant as a bearing lubricant instead of water pump grease

[Bob Riding]

52 minutes ago, JBNeal said:

The newer style water pumps will accommodate both internal bypass and external bypass blocks as they have the bypass hole in the pump casting and back plate.  With external bypass blocks, this pump bypass hole is blocked off by the engine block and sealed with the water pump gasket.  The newer style pump should not have any performance difference in warmup nor overall performance as the pump design is based on the original external and internal bypass designs...if anything, the newer pumps (if built well) should be maintenance free as late model pumps are since they use coolant as a bearing lubricant instead of water pump grease

I think I got that ?...so even though my older block doesn't have the extra hole for recirculation, it won't make any operational difference, but actually might be an improvement if I'm using the newer NAPA water pump?

[JBNeal]

I believe you need an external bypass water neck for the head and a bypass elbow for the water pump so the pump will run more efficiently when the thermostat closes...the newer pumps should have tapped holes for a flanged elbow and an NPT port that is plugged on the top of the pump when it is mounted on the engine block which is shown in the cooling system diagram 

[Tooljunkie]

I just put a new gates Pump on my 49 fargo. Pulley rubbed   housing  
i made a spacer to go behind pulley and all is good now. Why it rubbed im not sure. I was more concerned with solving the problem at hand. 

[Bryan]

Just noticed: Got a problem with my newer 1953 internal bypass block and 2 external heads.  Previous posts talk about its okay to put the new water pumps with the small internal bypass hole in the rear on an external bypass block (no hole), since the flat metal seals the hole.  What does one do if the opposite is the case, an internal bypass block (small hole) with an external head?  Don't like the way it looks so close to the edge of the head.   The new water pump has a larger plug for the top flange, but no plug for the small hole on the rear.  Plus the gasket has the hole.  

 

Any suggestions on a reliable way to fix this?   Anyone fixed this in the past and it held up and didn't leak?

[Sniper]

I would look for a brass cup plug (freeze plug) to seal the hole in the block.  Remember you will need to run the external bypass stuff.

 

I have an internal bypass head I won't be using, off a 52 Dodge.  I will be in Raleigh weekend after next till the following Wednesday for company training, I can throw it in the truck if you want it.  I know nothing about it other than I pulled it off when stripping down my core 230.  Going with an Edgy head.

[Bryan]

44 minutes ago, Sniper said:

I would look for a brass cup plug (freeze plug) to seal the hole in the block.  Remember you will need to run the external bypass stuff.

 

I have an internal bypass head I won't be using, off a 52 Dodge.  I will be in Raleigh weekend after next till the following Wednesday for company training, I can throw it in the truck if you want it.  I know nothing about it other than I pulled it off when stripping down my core 230.  Going with an Edgy head.

Appreciate the offer but already have the two heads.  Don't mind using the external bypass, just don't want it to leak.  Looking at it, have the options of changing the new water pump back plate (and trying to find a gasket), plugging the hole with a freeze plug type like you said (if I can find one that small), and wondering if I could fill a hole that size in the block with welding, and grind it off?   Or, lastly, thread the hole and screw in a plug with sealant?

[Young Ed]

1 hour ago, Bryan said:

Appreciate the offer but already have the two heads.  Don't mind using the external bypass, just don't want it to leak.  Looking at it, have the options of changing the new water pump back plate (and trying to find a gasket), plugging the hole with a freeze plug type like you said (if I can find one that small), and wondering if I could fill a hole that size in the block with welding, and grind it off?   Or, lastly, thread the hole and screw in a plug with sealant?

I believe someone a few years back threaded it and screwed a plug into there. 

[Matt Wilson]

My understanding is that people in this situation tap the holes in the block so that a plug can be screwed in there, with some sealant on the threads, of course.  This prevents coolant from going through the internal bypass passages.  They then install the external bypass water outlet (thermostat housing) on the head, with the small bypass hose that accompanies such a setup. 

 

I believe one of George Ashe's sons told me that's what George does in these situations, and that's what I'm planning to do with the 251 that I'm coverting to a 265.  I plan to use the external bypass pieces from my old 230 engine. 

 

In the photo below, you can see that I tapped both the vertical hole and the horizontal hole.  I expect to use the plug in only one of those holes, but I tapped then both to give myself flexibility.  I used a 1/2-13 tpi tap.  I may have had to drill the hole to the correct size first, so it would tap more easily, but I don't recall for sure.