Newbie Looking for Help

[streetsnake]

Hi Everyone. I’m brand new here. I’ve been searching for a project for my sons and I and recently came across a 1951 DeSoto. It looks to have had a lot of work done to it and has much of the remaining parts to finish. The main issue is that it needs new rocker panels which are included but I will have to have done. The condition of the rest of the car looks really good. I’ve tried to decode the firewall data card, to no avail. I hope you all can point me in the right direction. I’m also hoping it is a more desirable model but who knows. Lol. 

[streetsnake]

Here is a pic too. 

[desoto1939]

are you a member of the National Desoto club?  WWW.Desoto.org.

 

This years National Convention and Car show will be held in Altoona Pa June 15-19th.

 

Hope you can make it to the Convention and Show.

 

I own a 39 Desoto plese feel free to reachout to me. I live near Valley forge PA.

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[greg g]

The engine if original will have a number starting with a "S". This number is stamped on the left side of the front of the engine block on a raised pad above a freeze plug.  What is that number?  Should start with S15 followed by a few more numbers and or symbols. 

 

Also you can did General specs here, don't know if yours is the deluxe or custom. No mechanical differences but some bling to set the ranges apart.

 

http://carnut.com/specs/gen/soto50.html

[OUTFXD]

Wow! You are blessed to own such a beautiful part of American History.  I hope you and your sons have many hours enjoying your new car!

[streetsnake]

We haven’t purchased yet. Was trying to do some research on it before purchasing. That’s why I threw up the data tag. I’ll try to get a pic of the stamp. Thanks for everyone’s thoughts thus far. Let me see what I can do on the engine block. 

[streetsnake]

Here is one pic I was able to pull from a video. 

[streetsnake]

1 hour ago, greg g said:

The engine if original will have a number starting with a "S". This number is stamped on the left side of the front of the engine block on a raised pad above a freeze plug.  What is that number?  Should start with S15 followed by a few more numbers and or symbols. 

 

Also you can did General specs here, don't know if yours is the deluxe or custom. No mechanical differences but some bling to set the ranges apart.

 

http://carnut.com/specs/gen/soto50.html

Thanks. Is there a way to figure out if it is a deluxe or custom?  I believe the color is haze blue although the paint color currently looks like it is a different color?

[greg g]

I am not familiar with De Soto trim level differences. And who knows what's been added over the years.  For a fee, about 60 bucks you can request a facsimile of your cars build car which would have that info. It's done by using the serial number.  I think they are located on one of the A pillar on a stamped metal tag.  It takes a while as ther is not much staff left and records are better or worse depending on make and year.  I believe the application form is in this sites downloaded files.  If not you can print it out from the Chrysler Historic page.

 

Also, you can search the allpar.com site.  They have lots of info and pictures of the post war cars.  Especially since there were several body and engineering changes from 46 through 56.

 

 

https://www.allpar.com/threads/illustrated-plymouth-desoto-buyers-guide-–-desoto-1950s-1961.229622/#post-1085223720

 

 

There is more on the sites regular pages, this is their forum.

 

[andyd]

The main way to distinquish our mopars is via the raised machined boss on the USA drivers side, on the block, above the generator, just below the block/cylinder head interface behind the water pump.....the various cast in numbers generally relate to the foundry or casting number days or time that the block was made and are a separate thing to the actual engine number............this machined boss is usually about 1.5-2" long by 1/2" wide and the stamped in numbers in your case should start with S...... which will indicate that its a DeSoto engine, usually for each year there will be a choice of two series, so it will be, for example, S15-1 or S15-2 indicating the specific series then it will have a row of numbers to indicate the actual engine number...........hope this helps........andyd   

[Sniper]

In the following picture you can see the rectangular pad the engine number is stamped on.  Right above the core plug, at eh head and block interface.

 

[streetsnake]

Here?

[FarmerJon]

Yes. Sometimes the stamping gets filled in with paint, you may need to take some sandpaper to it to read the whole number

[streetsnake]

So other than showing an s-15, would the other numbers be used for?

[andyd]

For a DeSoto the 1st number will be the letter S, this prefix was used from the early 30's thru to the late 50's for DeSoto, Plymouth used the letter P, my 1941 Plymouth was a P11, but the more upmarket one was a P12, my 1940 Dodge is a D15 which was and is the Plymouth based export version,the USA 1940 Dodges were D14 & D17's and Chrysler used the letter C from the early 30's to the late 50's.........after the letter or letter/number prefix they all then had the actual engine number for that particular year which had a starting and finishing sequence..........but as the engines can be swapped reasonably simply then its sometimes an easy job to see if an engine has been swapped if you have the engine number............Dodge & Plymouths used whats known as the short engine, ie, 23.5inches long measured at the cylinder head length.....DeSoto and Chrysler used whats known as the long engine, 25 inches long when measured at the cylinder head.........and at first glance both short & long engines do look the same, BUT internal parts of the two engine lengths generally do not swap...........anyway that machined boss should have an stamped S, a couple of stamped numbers then a run of maybe 6-8 stamped numbers which will be the engine number for that particular engine........and S15 will indicate that its the original engine or at least from a car in the same year series as the one you are looking at............andyd     

[keithb7]

1951 Desoto, you mentioned. Looks to be a coupe that someone had been fixing up. The flathead 6 engine, appears era correct. Once you gather the engine SN we can comfirm. I believe these were 251 ci engines in ‘51. 3 7/16 bore x 4 ½” stroke. Decent torque. Solid, reliable engines.   Based on the pic is looks to be a 25” block to me. 
 

The tag on the firewall could be deciphered to reveal some more trim details on the car. Original paint color etc.

 

In terms of rarity or value, these old Mopar sedans were mass produced. They don’t generally attract a high resale dollar. So they are easy to get into. Parts are readily available. There is tons of support here. We all love our old Mopars dearly. They are great cars for the next generation to learn on. A 2-door is generally more appealing to the public and future buyers. Personally, I think the sedan is on equal footing. More doors = more people and fun. 

 

Is this Desoto a 3 speed manual with dry clutch? Or fluid drive? The upgraded disc brakes is a bonus. 

The distributor and rotor area looks old. The block paint new. You may want to confirm how the engine is being advertised.  Ran when parked? Rattle can rebuild? Or full rebuild with new parts and machining?   Big difference. 
 

If you have any questions before you buy, feel free to ask. 

 

Keith

 

 

Edited April 19, 2022 by keithb7

[Kilgore47]

Check to make sure the engine turns over.  I can see in one of the pictures that the oil pan is missing.  You should crawl under there to check if there is any surface rust on the cylinder walls.  Depending on the price - I would grab that project in a heartbeat.

 

Have fun with it.  

[allbizz49]

I don't think the engine numbers should be a factor in you buying the car. Price, what needs to be done, what your end result expectations are, and your ability to work on it or funds for paying someone to work on it should be considered first. Engine numbers don't really matter. Good luck, looks like a nice car. If it's cheap enough, buy it and start making fun memories with your sons.

Edited April 19, 2022 by allbizz49

[Dan Hiebert]

Desirable is in the eyes of the beholder.  Mechanical parts for these era cars are still available, and generally more reasonably priced than even the next decade.  What would be "desirable" to me is working on it with your sons, enjoying that process, and then enjoying the car with the family.  You'uns may even decide to do more cars as a family, one for each kid, maybe.  Since it's not an overvalued 60's or 70's muscle car, there is room for the occasional learning by error that won't break the bank.  Next one could be something a little sexier.  Welcome to the Forum, and enjoy!

[streetsnake]

17 hours ago, keithb7 said:

1951 Desoto, you mentioned. Looks to be a coupe that someone had been fixing up. The flathead 6 engine, appears era correct. Once you gather the engine SN we can comfirm. I believe these were 251 ci engines in ‘51. 3 7/16 bore x 4 ½” stroke. Decent torque. Solid, reliable engines.   Based on the pic is looks to be a 25” block to me. 
 

The tag on the firewall could be deciphered to reveal some more trim details on the car. Original paint color etc.

 

In terms of rarity or value, these old Mopar sedans were mass produced. They don’t generally attract a high resale dollar. So they are easy to get into. Parts are readily available. There is tons of support here. We all love our old Mopars dearly. They are great cars for the next generation to learn on. A 2-door is generally more appealing to the public and future buyers. Personally, I think the sedan is on equal footing. More doors = more people and fun. 

 

Is this Desoto a 3 speed manual with dry clutch? Or fluid drive? The upgraded disc brakes is a bonus. 

The distributor and rotor area looks old. The block paint new. You may want to confirm how the engine is being advertised.  Ran when parked? Rattle can rebuild? Or full rebuild with new parts and machining?   Big difference. 
 

If you have any questions before you buy, feel free to ask. 

 

Keith

 

 

Thanks for the info and thoughts.  I believe it was compression checked and the front end engine parts replaced with new.  Fluid-drive tranny.  I believe the internals are original but everything else is new.  I believe he recommended switching over to electronic ignition but he may have new distributor and rotor.  Asking price is 6K.  Switched from generator to 6v alternator.  Needs new rockers installed, which I cannot do.  Priced it and the best I found was between $2500-3500.  I'm just afraid even though the 6K seems great, after the rockers and full paint, I'd be at 20K.  I don't mind breaking even but don't want to lose a ton on it.  It just seems the market prices vary quite a bit.  But to be fair, I'm not an expert at pricing.

[streetsnake]

Oh also has the original wheels have been redone but need rubber. Bumpers need rechomed although they’re not horrible. I can polish the stainless steel. New wood steering although has the original plastic one but a little fragile side. 

[streetsnake]

Here is the block. 

[Sniper]

Ok, S15 is the engine code.  Looks like 51-52 Desoto.  The rest of the numbers make up that engine's unique serial number.  In TX that is what the title would show as the VIN.  IF that is the case where you are they had better match the title or you are in for the governmental paperwork boogie.

 

Here is something to ponder.  You do not get into these cars to "not lose money"  You will lose money.  Especially if there is major work that needs farmed out.  Myself, I think $6k is high as it sits, especially without knowing if the engine/trans and the rest of the drive train are good or bad.  Any of those are bad and you are looking at a couple K more in costs.  If the car ran and you could take it at least around the block to see/hear any issues then maybe $6k is in the ball park.

[greg g]

As Sniper said many dmvs used the engine number, many others used the serial number on the a pillar tag.  So do either numbers match the Vin on the paper work or old title? The problem is that in these cars engine swaps were common practice back in the day.  If your engine started smoking or had I ternary issues, jit was easier to find a low mileage wreck to pop in another motor, saving the time a rebuild would take.  Your number looks legit, but the factory stamp was usually on the vertical surface of that pad, not the top.  So this may or may not be the original engine.  Could be a rebuild that the shop restamped.  There might be a number stamped into the frame on the drivers side where the arch in the frame goes over the rear axle.  It usually takes some time and work with a powered wire wheel to find and reveal that number. But if your number on the engine or the serial number match your paper work you should be good for tagging and titling. 

 

One other thing, your car doesn't have a fluid drive transmission.  The fluid drive is separate and distinct unit from the transmission.  Desoto used fluid drive connected to a dual range semi automatic transmission. Either an M5 or an M6 marketed as tip toe transmission.  Likely an M6 based on it being a 51.  Again a visit to allpar.com  and a search under transmissions  will be helpful to begin to understand theory and practice of the fluid drive components.  Lots of folks use the fluid drive term to describe the trans mission, buts it's like using kleenex to describe all nose wipes.  To confuse the situation more, I believe Desoto also offered the fluid drive with the three speed manual trans as Dodge did from 49 till 54.

[MarcDeSoto]

DeSoto did not offer fluid drive with 3 speed manual.  Dodge did.  Virtually all Chryslers and DeSotos used the semi auto 4 speed transmission in this era, even though the shop manual that also shows a 3 speed manual would make you think otherwise.  I would not offer 6K for this as you don't know what's good or bad mechanically and the costs can sky rocket quickly.  That's why he's selling it.