Trans swap

[allbizz49]

You missed one Sniper. 86 and later s10 t5 ratios......

1st - 3.76 2nd - 2.18 3rd - 1.41 4th - 1.00 5th - 0.72
i had that in my 59 Lark with the stock flatty. Went down the road just fine. Freeway speeds and road trips no problem. I think 99% of people don't want or need anything other than a 3 speed. They're cars sit on battery tenders and only are driven on sunny days and for short trips. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that but some of us drive them daily and having an extra gear, even if not the most desirable, is still better than putting around at 55 everywhere. Now, my 53 is so stock, I wouldn't consider doing a swap unless I come across an r10 for cheap which just isn't going to happen. 

[Sniper]

the first and second gear ratios are way low compared to the stock 3 speed, it's like a granny gear, lol.  While the Mustang T5 is closest to stock ratios I've seen, so far, I have an A833OD on the shelf, shelf is what I will probably go with.

[allbizz49]

I agree, first few gearscare low. Once you get on the highway and row it into fifth, it's worth it. At least for me. I like the A833 OD too, just not as available or inexpensive. I did just pass on one for 300 though. I don't have anything to put it in and I try not to be a hoarder, haha. 

[Booger]

4 hours ago, Bobb Horn said:

 

 

I would have to agree, it would take me more than a morning to bolt in a 5 speed.      The T5s are plentyful, and not expensive, and with a little research, or just ask on here, one will find there are a great number of different ratios available.      The T5s do require, in most cases, an adapter plate, and a little welding, but doable.     Myself working on a budget, not because I need to, but because  I wanted something no one else has done before, that I could find, desided to try the TK5, no adapter, and only a small amount of changing.    After going through three 3 speeds going bad, I did the TK5.   The TK5 Ranger trans and parts are easy to find in most areas and not expensive.     I paid less than $100 for each trans, and $25 for the mill work on one.    I, as many others, do not worry about "collectability", only that we enjoy what we do with what we have.

nice work. pre 40s stuff shifter is on the floor. That wont fly for after War cars

[Bobb Horn]

On 7/28/2021 at 8:37 PM, Booger said:

nice work. pre 40s stuff shifter is on the floor. That wont fly for after War cars

  My 1986 TK5 shifter is on the floor, have a bench seat, and it works great, after War cars should have no problem also....

 

[Bobb Horn]

On 7/28/2021 at 6:04 PM, Sniper said:

In another thread I started I had a table of trans gear ratios compared to stock.  I updated it to add the S10 T5 and the Ford TK5 ratios.  They both are horrible, imo.  The non world class 83-84 mustang T5 is closer to stock.

 

 

 

trans gear ratios.xlsx 12.04 kB · 14 downloads

Stock is what is horrible, engine always busy with rpms, have to stop to go to first gear.     I went through several stock three speeds before I went with the TK5.    First is low with the 3.9 stock rear, and is still a little low with the 3.7 Ranger gear, but still worth it with some steep hills/driveways here in Va.    4th and 5th work great.      Even a TK4 four speed would be better than my stock 3 speeds.      My Coupe only has 82hp, so the trans makes it more enjoyable.....

 

[Sniper]

Going to agree to disagree here.  I like the stock gear spread and with an OD it would be pretty close to perfect.  I mean the TK5's 2nd gear is almost as low as the stock 1st gear and you think the stock trans is busy with rpm?

 

Maybe I am not understanding what you mean by that.  Anyway that's what makes the country a wonderful place, you can be happy with the TK5 and I can be happy with something else and no one is upset. 

[Bobb Horn]

"stock trans is busy with rpm"....     What I mean is running my three different stock trans, at around 55mph, the engine is running at alot of rpm, around 3000 rpm best I can remember.      With the 5 speed, I run around 2000rpm at 55 or so.     Where I live, it is hilly, and some open roads.    Lower gears are great on steep driveways, and some of my friends live in some difficult places.    Much of my driving is on 55 and 60 speed limits.    So the TK5 works great for where I live.

[Sniper]

Can't disagree about going with what works for you.

[Loren]

Hmm

Has a second gear the same as the stock first gear.

Has a fifth gear with 28% overdrive.

Have to use clutch on every gear change.

Had to change whole rear end to get to 3.7 to 1 final drive ratio.

Then bored a hole in the floor board to use the shifter, loosing a passenger seat.

Hmm

My Overdrive uses the stock shifter with zero modifications. Didn’t even have to adjust it or the clutch. My three passenger coupe is still a three passenger coupe.

My stock Plymouth rear axle has a differential carrier and I have my choice of gear ratios 3.9 3.73 or 3.54, all on the shelf ready to slide in. Don’t have to remove the whole rear axle to change ratios.

With an Overdrive you don’t have to clutch every gear change and the overdrive is automatic. All you have to do is lift your throttle foot momentarily.

The Plymouth Overdrive is 30%.

When it came time to hook up on the speedometer cable, it fit. When it came time check on the accuracy of the speedometer, I simply put the gears from the original gearbox in the Overdrive, they fit. (For now I left the stock 3.73 final drive ratio in the car)

The Plymouth transmission also has an optional 2nd gear ratio should you desire it. (I have three of them, just in case)

 

On the non-synchro first gear, Borg Warner made Overdrives for 11 makes of cars and trucks clear up to 1973 (Ford pickup) and not one of them had a synchromesh first gear. Why? Because with automatic overdrive a freewheel sprag clutch is required and that helps prevent grinding in first gear.

 

For my money (time & effort) the stock Plymouth Overdrive and stock Mopar rear axle seems like the best solution.....for me.

I know some folks have different ideas but for me this is far and away the best solution. If I can’t convince you, I have an S10 T5 you can buy from my Model A Ford. I am going to change it out for a 1939 V8 transmission, they just work better....for me.

I hope no one is offended by my choices for my car. I just think they work better.... for me. I’ve come to appreciate Chrysler Engineering and so it tickles me to keep my car as all Mopar as I possibly can.

 

[pflaming]

In my truck which has a 218 and a 3:73 i cruise with the semis and still have the ability to pass them at will.  On along climb,  the change down to 2nd is too severe. Pacheco Pass , Ca was all 2nd at the top. It should have pulled it, maybe reason for more tuneups! 
 

[Sniper]

Some of us actually like to shift gears and are old enough that having someone ride next to you isn't a thing.

 

If we really wanted to go the full route, put in an OD automatic then you never have to shift, you can keep a column shifter, torque multiplication, lock up converter and Bob's yer uncle.

 

As for getting a more modern rear ale, I have to state this.  I changed a flat this morning.  Put the E brake on, stuck it in gear and jacked up the pass rear side.  Just as I was pulling the tire off the car started to roll back and fall off the scissors jack.  That's when the realization hit me that an E brake on the trans output is A Bad Idea.  With an open diff the tire with traction will roll and the tire up in the air won't.  Death trap.   I had been thinking about just keeping the stock axle, not any more.  Gone to the scrappers as soon as I can get a modern one, till then a set of chocks, not that I have a spare.

[pflaming]

Shifting vs overdrive. I grew up with shifting so much so that I learned to shift all gears up and down without using the clutch. On,y used the clutch for reverse, 1st and to stop. 

[Loren]

12 hours ago, Sniper said:

Some of us actually like to shift gears and are old enough that having someone ride next to you isn't a thing.

 

If we really wanted to go the full route, put in an OD automatic then you never have to shift, you can keep a column shifter, torque multiplication, lock up converter and Bob's yer uncle.

 

As for getting a more modern rear ale, I have to state this.  I changed a flat this morning.  Put the E brake on, stuck it in gear and jacked up the pass rear side.  Just as I was pulling the tire off the car started to roll back and fall off the scissors jack.  That's when the realization hit me that an E brake on the trans output is A Bad Idea.  With an open diff the tire with traction will roll and the tire up in the air won't.  Death trap.   I had been thinking about just keeping the stock axle, not any more.  Gone to the scrappers as soon as I can get a modern one, till then a set of chocks, not that I have a spare.

 

I am struggling to put this in a way not to sound snarky.

A set of wheel chocks (and the resolve to use them) is a wise addition to the tire changing equipment of every car you own, especially those with automatic transmissions. All my late model vehicles came from the factory with them. Old bad habits are hard to break but even 4 wheel drive vehicles come with wheel chocks now (and they need them! Don’t ask me how I know).

 

I once thought wheel chocks were a warning that the vehicle had a crappy jack. (You should see what BMW puts in the Mini tool kit!)

Your experience (along with too many of my own) has re-doubled my commitment to use wheel chocks when ever the jack comes out.

In cleaning up my storage this week I found a never used set of folding chocks that are going in the truck of my coupe!

So here’s my logic, if one gets in the good habit of using wheel chocks (and making sure they are always available) then one has no need to go to the trouble of modifying one’s collector car.

Having left a Plymouth drive shaft E brake on and those of other designs, I have more faith in the Plymouth of actually stopping the car in an emergency. So for me I am still not moved to change (pun intended).

[Sniper]

The parking brake was never designed to stop the car.  It's there to keep it from rolling when parked and even then on a hill it is suggested to turn your wheels and put it in gear.  Can it be used when your brakes fail?  Yes, but it's so ineffective that the OEM's went to a split hydraulic system to provide redundancy in case of a failure.  Which I will be doing as well.  Pretty sure I am going to go split front/rear and not diagonally as the latest vehicles are set up.

 

The later style parking brakes that lock each drum in the rearend would have prevented what happened to me.  Fortunately, just a scare and no injuries or damages done.

 

I am not wedded to certain technologies simply because that's how it was done.  I have no problems taking advantage of improvements.  Says the guy building an old school hot rodded 230, with a twist, lol

[Adam H P15 D30]

One distinct advantage a modern 5 speed has over an R10, especially if you live where there are hills, is the ability to have an OD WITHOUT freewheeling. Not having to stop and disengage the OD cable when going over mountain passes so you don’t cook the brakes on the downhill. 

My son has a D150 /6 833OD and those ratios are awful!

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Adam H P15 D30

[kencombs]

8 hours ago, Adam H P15 D30 said:

One distinct advantage a modern 5 speed has over an R10, especially if you live where there are hills, is the ability to have an OD WITHOUT freewheeling. Not having to stop and disengage the OD cable when going over mountain passes so you don’t cook the brakes on the downhill. 

My son has a D150 /6 833OD and those ratios are awful!

 

A properly operating R10(or R11) only freewheels when below the OD cut in speed.  So, unless you are driving that slow you should have engine braking.  The real advantage of the OD is the fact that it can be operated as a 2 speed automatic shift in traffic.  Second gear in and out of OD covers a lot of speed range with no clutching.  Especially nice when wired to shift with a manual switch.

 

[Adam H P15 D30]

10 hours ago, kencombs said:

A properly operating R10(or R11) only freewheels when below the OD cut in speed.  So, unless you are driving that slow you should have engine braking.  The real advantage of the OD is the fact that it can be operated as a 2 speed automatic shift in traffic.  Second gear in and out of OD covers a lot of speed range with no clutching.  Especially nice when wired to shift with a manual switch.

 

Yes, I am talking about going that slow.  When a highway turns into a mountain pass with slow turns and steep grades, something we see out here in the west quite often. 

Pull over at the top of the pass, pull OD handle out, proceed...  Did that many times in my Ford with an R10.

 

Not to say I didn't love the R10, I did.  Just noting a downside depending on your geography.  For some in the flatlands it will probably never be an issue and I always thought of it as part of the charm.  

 

If I was retrofitting a different trans into a driving (done?) car I would pay the extra $$$$$ for an R10, if I was building it I would put something better in it (T5 / TKO).  Either way, I really wouldn't care that I modified it.  No stocker is ever safe in my garage

Edited August 2, 2021 by Adam H P15 D30

[Bobb Horn]

On 7/31/2021 at 7:27 PM, Sniper said:

Some of us actually like to shift gears and are old enough that having someone ride next to you isn't a thing.

 

If we really wanted to go the full route, put in an OD automatic then you never have to shift, you can keep a column shifter, torque multiplication, lock up converter and Bob's yer uncle.

 

As for getting a more modern rear ale, I have to state this.  I changed a flat this morning.  Put the E brake on, stuck it in gear and jacked up the pass rear side.  Just as I was pulling the tire off the car started to roll back and fall off the scissors jack.  That's when the realization hit me that an E brake on the trans output is A Bad Idea.  With an open diff the tire with traction will roll and the tire up in the air won't.  Death trap.   I had been thinking about just keeping the stock axle, not any more.  Gone to the scrappers as soon as I can get a modern one, till then a set of chocks, not that I have a spare.

I understand the "roll back".    Many years ago I pulled my 66 Plymouth 3 speed into the driveway, set the park brake.      After dinner I came out and my Plymouth had rolled down the driveway, and up the neighbor's driveway.    I got in,  started the car, and it would not move until I released the E brake.     I seen this happen on my Uncle's Chevy truck, and a neighbor's Ford truck.    Apparently E brakes do not hold very long when parked on a upward slope......

[lostviking]

On 7/31/2021 at 2:45 PM, Bobb Horn said:

"stock trans is busy with rpm"....     What I mean is running my three different stock trans, at around 55mph, the engine is running at alot of rpm, around 3000 rpm best I can remember.      With the 5 speed, I run around 2000rpm at 55 or so.     Where I live, it is hilly, and some open roads.    Lower gears are great on steep driveways, and some of my friends live in some difficult places.    Much of my driving is on 55 and 60 speed limits.    So the TK5 works great for where I live.

Do you have or would you start a thread telling us how to do the TK5 swap? I find machining the OD on the bellhousing to be pretty minor. What else did you need to do and what exact parts combination did you use? I have a 46 truck. Thanks.

[James_Douglas]

I just happened to read this old thread and have one comment...

 

About 15 years ago I was at the top of a very big hill here in San Francisco. Doing work at UCSF. It was very early on a Sunday morning. I was heading home down the hill. I pressed the brake and the pedal mushed to the floor. I am heading down this very steep grade toward a 4 way stop. I pulled hard on the parking brake and the can slowed to almost a stop. I mushed about half way into the intersection. I managed to drive the car home picking mu route carefully using the parking brake.

 

Turns out it was a new, less than 1 year, wheel cylinder had a seal fail. It was bad from the factory. I now open up and check all brake parts not matter what.

 

The short story is that the parking brake will stop one of these cars in about a 1/2 city block at 30 MPH if it is properly adjusted. On the freeway at 65, not a chance.

 

Keep in mine this happened in my big Suburban.  A lighter car would likely do better.

 

James

[Bryan]

Yeah and in another thread I was wondering if you could use servos and/or linear actuators to control the shift rods and have a shifter somewhere other than the floor. Reckon it was too crazy.   You see R10s for Fords and everything else on EBAY but have not seen a decent priced one yet for a Dodge.

 

[DJ194950]

Never seen a Reasonably priced R-10 on EBay for the past 10 years!

 

Maybe you can hire Paul Flaming or Lauren to locate one for you for son type of fee.

 

Lauren says she locates them cheaply and loves em'  Paul has bought many more than he ever needed somehow from Ca. to Maine.. He may not be real cheap however,  he is very frugal with his $$  and uses profits for more cars and parts!  ??

 

Paul i'm messin' with you - I hope your health will soon let you back in the shop!

 

DJ

[Young Ed]

It's all about what you can do. I put an overdrive in my 48. Risked my life pulling it out of a rusty 52 in a junkyard but got it for $150. Put a T5 in my 1/2 ton because it was way easier to adapt than an overdrive. Already have another 1/2 ton with the stock 3spd so part of my goal is to not have 2 identical driving trucks even though they are the same body style. That one also has a modern jeep diff. Loren you'll be happy to know I traded a 3.73 diff for the T5

 

[Bobb Horn]

On 1/1/2022 at 9:37 PM, lostviking said:

Do you have or would you start a thread telling us how to do the TK5 swap? I find machining the OD on the bellhousing to be pretty minor. What else did you need to do and what exact parts combination did you use? I have a 46 truck. Thanks.

.....I had a thread on here several years ago, "5 speed, not T5",,,,when I first started experimenting with a 5 speed.   It has worked out real good so far, easy to drive now.