Chrysler Industrial Engine Observations

[keithb7]

I recently acquired the book seen in the image below.  I thought I’d pick up a copy and see what I can learn from it.  I have indeed learned a lot. And the info is sticking as I proceed on my vintage Mopar journey.
 

I have a couple of questions. You’ll see on the cover, the book covers Model 5 & 5A, 6 & 6A,  etc.  I can’t seem to find what the difference is between an engine model, and the same model with an “A”. For example what is the difference between a 5 and a 5A?  Does the “A” indicate something specific?

 

Some new-to-me observations maybe worth mentioning:

 

217.8 ci and the 230.2 ci (both 23” length blocks) both share 3 ½” bores. The difference  is the 230 has a ¼” longer stroke.  

The 230 enjoys a connecting rod that is ⅛” shorter than the 218.  The book does not tell us if the crank throw for a rod on the 230 is shorter. Is it? I suspect so. 

A longer stroke nets the 230 just a slight bit higher compression ratio. 6.6:1 vs 6.7:1. 
 

Reviewing the parts lists, they are laid out nicely for quick comparison of parts. It is amazing how many same-parts are shared by all these engines.  Chrysler really did maximize part commonality. 
 

In the 23” length engine, it appears that con-rods 1,3,5 are the same. And 2,4,6 are the same. Assume due to the siamese cylinder pairings? If a person wanted to try, could they actually ignore the con-rod position numbers and swap positions 1 and 5 or 3 for example, with no ill effects? Assume matching rod cap is swapped too, pairing with proper rod. And oil spray hole is correctly orientated. 
 

A fantastic selection of oversize pistons and rings in .010”  increments all the way up to .060”.  Which you filed the ring end gap to accommodate various wear sizes up to the .010” next size up.

 

Aha! A light just came on.  Is this why, when you bore your cylinder to say .020 over, and you order .020 over rings, you still must check and file the ring end gap? Because this .020 oversize ring can be used right up to .029” bore size? I suspect so!

I knew a fair bit about the commonality of the 25” length block. As I am in Canada and it seems they saturated the market up here with the 25” Canadian block only. Interesting reading for sure, learning about the 23” length engines.  
 

Not a bad reference book to own, this one! I keep hearing that these old flathead engines are fantastic workhorses. I am beginning to truly understand that. 

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by keithb7

[Noonan]

Might have to pick your brain if I come across an engine that I'm considering buying if you keep reading books like these !

[Marcel Backs]

I am envious of your documentation collection Kieth. I'm guessing that these units are the ones that were produced after Chrysler stopped using the six in passenger cars and the design transitioned to industrial use. What is the compatibility of the industrial six in passenger car applications? Do the industrial motors have any different design features? This is an interesting topic. Thanks for posting. M

[Plymouthy Adams]

one of the biggest differences in some of the stationary/IND is the lack of vacuum advance....longer throw on the 230 crank....why the shorter rod..

[Marcel Backs]

they would use a govenor?

[Plymouthy Adams]

some application would use the governor, others just have no need to further advance timing...your car engine does not need vacuum advance except as a tool for economy....

[Marcel Backs]

Thanks PA! Your "rack of knowledge" (as observed on your icon) provides everyone with some good answers! 

[T120]

I did not realize there is another series of Chrysler flathead industrial engines. This is a Canadian manual I have -  251, 265,and 313 Ind engines...

[Plymouthy Adams]

@T120 (or anyone else for that matter) as a Canadian, and the Windsor engine plant located there, would you happen to know what the QRS designation stands for....?  If I ever knew, I will admit to CRS and failure to write it down it has only been some 45+ years ago....

[T120]

Tim, I  hate to admit it but I also am afflicted with CRS...As far as the QRS designation goes and any relation to the Chrysler Windsor Plant,I have no idea...While I am not into amateur radio, I have met a few fellows through the years who enjoy that as a hobby ,I gather that QRS sent  in morse code means, "send     more    slowly".?

Edited March 17, 2021 by T120
added text

[Plymouthy Adams]

my 73 Dodge with the 225 had a decal on the engine,  Windsor QRS...it was by far the best running slant six I ever owned and I have put many many miles on cars equipped with the /6.   I have tried various sources to determine if and what the QRS stood for....have come up empty every time.  Windsor was the Canadian engine plant.    In 73 was the introduction of the /6 with hardened valve seats....am not sure if these were flame or induction hardened....did this played a role in the designation, no clue here.  

[HotRodTractor]

I'd have to go look - but the 230 engine in my Wards tractor is a 6A I think..... 

The industrial engines overlapped heavily with passenger vehicle production. They were putting these engines in everything they could as soon as they could. 

I have never found any documentation that explains the differences in each of the variants - I suspect they are most internal changes such as the camshaft. There are multiple manifold configurations depending on application. Both updraft and downdraft carburetor setups exist. Exhaust manifolds are even more complicated with the exhaust exit - up/ down / side / dual side. 

Industrial governors were typically belt driven pierce units. I have two of them. 

Its also not uncommon to find a hydraulic pump driven directly off the front of the crankshaft using a rubber rag joint on industrial motors.

[JBNeal]

I believe the IND 5 and IND 30 have timing chains, and the 5A and 31 have timing gears...

 

additional information - Industrial Flathead Engine Identification 

[Dartgame]

My understanding about the rod orientation takes into account how the rod journals are spaced relative to the cylinders. The rods are offset slightly on the big end to shift the rod to the center of the piston wrist pin. 

[James_Douglas]

I have an IND-265 that I need to take apart in the near future.  I will compare the parts in it to my 251 spares. I suspect that they would not make a special head that is "low compression". It would have been much more easy to just have shorter pistons to lower the compression. Or, they may have had this in mind and the raw heads were quiet thick and they just milled them to the CR they wanted. If that is the case then great. I can deck the block good and still have some "head" to work with.

 

I am seeing blocks and heads that have been milled so much that they cannot be used.

 

James

[keithb7]

14 hours ago, Marcel Backs said:

. I'm guessing that these units are the ones that were produced after Chrysler stopped using the six in passenger cars and the design transitioned to industrial use. 

 

I don't think that is the case Marcel. My book is seems to be dated 1950.

 

The following models are covered in my book:

5 & 5A is 217.8 ci 23" 3 ¼ bore 4 ⅜ stroke

6 & 6A is 230.2 ci 23" 3 ¼ bore  4 ⅝ stroke

7 & 7A 236.6 ci 25" 3 7/16 bore 4 ¼ stroke

8 & 8A is 250.6 ci 25" 3 7/16 bore 4 ½ stroke

 

The Canadian manual shown above covers the same 251 seen in my book (250.6 ci)

Add a little longer stroke yet and it becomes a 265 ci.

The 313 I am not aware of. A V8 industrial power plant I presume?

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by keithb7

[T120]

3 hours ago, keithb7 said:

 

The 313 I am not aware of. A V8 industrial power plant I presume?

Keith, You are correct -  The Chrysler Ind 313 in the manual I have is an OHV V8 engine. You may be on the mark as to it's use, I don't know.The manual is dated June,1960. ?

[keithb7]

8 minutes ago, T120 said:

Keith, You are correct -  The Chrysler Ind 313 in the manual I have is an OHV V8 engine. You may be on the mark as to it's use, I don't know.The manual is dated June,1960. ?

I hear tell of HEMI V8 powered air raid sirens. The 313 may indeed be the provider. Early 50's.

 

 

 

 

[keithb7]

Maybe lets see if we can have some fun with this thread and post photos of examples of Chrysler Industrial engines in use. 

The Air Raid siren kicked it off. Let's see what you've bumped into? What old piece of equipment have you seen with an Industrial engine?

 

 

[Sniper]

When I was at my first duty station our fork lift had a Chrysler flathead in it.  Every time it went to the motor pool for service I would end up having to rebuild the carb to get it to run right.  Not sure what those clowns were doing over there, probably stealing our carb for their own use, lol.  Raided the coffee mess money for the kit.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Sniper
can't type worth a darn

[kencombs]

Quote

 

Back in the 60s when I worked for an airline, a lot of our airplane and bigger baggage tugs had Mopar flatheads.  And a lot used some version of fluid drive.

 

Back before most irrigation systems were electric powered, Hemis were a common sight running deep well pumps for irrigation.

 

Sorry, no pics.  Digital cameras were not around back then.

[ccudahy]

4 hours ago, keithb7 said:

The 313 I am not aware of. A V8 industrial power plant I presume?

Here is a little info on the 313 cu. in. V8 :

 

The 313 is considered in the A engine family.  The A engines are mostly the polyspherical engines (277, 301, 303, 313, 318 poly, & 326).

 

"The Chrysler A engine is a small-block V8 gasoline engine built by Chrysler with polyspherical combustion chambers. It was  produced from 1956 until 1967, when it was replaced by the wedge-head LA engine. It is not related to the hemispherical-head Hemi engine of the same era."

 

 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by ccudahy

[TravisL17]

On 3/16/2021 at 11:49 PM, Plymouthy Adams said:

one of the biggest differences in some of the stationary/IND is the lack of vacuum advance....longer throw on the 230 crank....why the shorter rod..

This is just me guessing...is the rod shorter on the 230 to provide clearance between the rod and the bottom of the cylinder wall when the piston is at the half way point in the stroke. With a shorter rod, you move the piston further down in the bore, providing more clearance between the rod and cylinder wall when the piston is at the half way point of the stroke. I can see it in my head, but not sure if it's making sense when I put it into words. 

[Plymouthy Adams]

the shorter rod is to provide the longer throw of the crank to move the piston deeper into the bore thus creating an increase in cylinder volume while the upper portion of the throw moves the piston back closer to top of the block with the piston.....this slightly larger throw creates the larger displacement (X times 6) is also the mathematical increase of CR 218/230 given they share the same bore and piston...

Edited March 18, 2021 by Plymouthy Adams

[TravisL17]

I just found a write up for rod length. Interesting stuff.

 

https://www.chevyhardcore.com/tech-stories/stroker-engines-long-short-connecting-rod-length/#:~:text=A shorter rod will decrease,degrees before and after TDC.