MoPar Manual Blues

[Eneto-55]

I've got the MoPar Manual Blues. 

 

Back when we rebuilt the engine for my 46 P-15 (in 1980 or 81), there was no internet, and as I recall, we didn't have a service guide / repair manual.  My dad just knew how they did it at the Chrysler-Plymouth-DeSoto-Dodge dealership where he worked from the mid 50's up until the early to mid 60's.  They built the engines tight, then drug them around the block there in down-town Tulsa, until they were free enough for the starter to turn the engine over on its own.  According to the MoPar manual I have now, that would result in damage to the main crank bearings.  There's all kinds of stuff I've read in the engine section (so far) that I'm pretty sure we didn't do. This test and that test, this special tool and that special tool.  Testing equipment,  use a micrometer for this or that (we didn't even have one).  It goes on and on, and gives me the blues.

 

(I have never yet started this engine.  I met my wife the following year, and then a year after that I moved from Oklahoma to here in Ohio, where she's from, and we married that winter.  Then in 85 we moved to Brazil, where we worked in Bible translation for a small tribe in the Amazon until we moved back to the States in 2003.  My car continued to sit in my dad's shop in Oklahoma until just under 2 years ago.  Sorting parts, etc., working on what I can while running a business here, but not much time to work on it yet.)

[P15-D24]

You should would pull the pan and inspect the journals. If ok then get some plastigauge and and check bearing clearance. 

If you want to check piston ring fit you are probably going to have to pull the them. Their might be a check where you can use a feeler gauge down the bore to verify ring clearance, hopefully someone else can confirm. 

[Plymouthy Adams]

44 minutes ago, Eneto-55 said:

I've got the MoPar Manual Blues. 

 

Back when we rebuilt the engine for my 46 P-15 (in 1980 or 81), there was no internet, and as I recall, we didn't have a service guide / repair manual.  My dad just knew how they did it at the Chrysler-Plymouth-DeSoto-Dodge dealership where he worked from the mid 50's up until the early to mid 60's.  They built the engines tight, then drug them around the block there in down-town Tulsa, until they were free enough for the starter to turn the engine over on its own.  According to the MoPar manual I have now, that would result in damage to the main crank bearings.  There's all kinds of stuff I've read in the engine section (so far) that I'm pretty sure we didn't do. This test and that test, this special tool and that special tool.  Testing equipment,  use a micrometer for this or that (we didn't even have one).  It goes on and on, and gives me the blues.

 

(I have never yet started this engine.  I met my wife the following year, and then a year after that I moved from Oklahoma to here in Ohio, where she's from, and we married that winter.  Then in 85 we moved to Brazil, where we worked in Bible translation for a small tribe in the Amazon until we moved back to the States in 2003.  My car continued to sit in my dad's shop in Oklahoma until just under 2 years ago.  Sorting parts, etc., working on what I can while running a business here, but not much time to work on it yet.)

 

 

if the engine is turning as pulled and driven by the drive train....then it is turning the cam that turns the oil pump......where is the difference in turning by the starter....?

[kencombs]

I've heard of such methods also from my Dad and his friends.  But, always when discussing a Stovebolt, babbitt beater six.  Other makes had standard size and standard undersize parts available.  The old Chevys had the remove a shim fitment method.  Some even filed the rod cap if taking out all the shims didn't tighten it up enough.  One manual I had stated that the rod should be assembled on the crank with the throw all the way at the bottom and the rod horizontal.  When torqued the rod should swing to the vertical as a way of determining the correct fit.  Real precise!  Some seemed to think that a tight engine would take longer to need another rod adjustment.

 

The only way to get a Mopar to tight would be undersize bearings on  a standard crank.  I have seen a few try to use .001 or 0 o02 bearings.  Works if the crank is worn round, not so good if it is 'unround'.'

 

Edit:  one other issue that made the older overhauls 'tight'.  Cast iron rings.  Lots of cylinder friction and drag compared to chrome or moly until worn in a little.  We always used a battery charger to boost the battery on initial start.  I still have that old charger, came with a service station Dad bought in '60.  It does 6/12V at 4 selectable rates.  On high 12v it outputs about 18v!! 

 

Four States engines, remember them well.  One of the better semi-local rebuilt engine sources.  Fred Jones Ford was the best of the locals and did lots of engines for other dealers and shops.  One of their contemporaries, Midwestern engine rebuilders, is still in business.  They polished my cam and resurfaced my lifters last month.

Edited May 6, 2020 by kencombs

[keithb7]

If the engine has been sitting since 1981 does it bar over? Or can you pry it to turn at the ring gear? From your original post it sounds like perhaps you reassembled the engine back in 81. Likely, with very tight bearing fitment. It sounds like your Dad had the intention to drag it around to free up the bearing clearance, but that had not been done to this engine? So, the starter cannot turn it, and it has not yet to this day 40 years later?  Do we know we have a good strong starting motor? Corrosion free, proper gage starter cables? Good clean ground connections? Fresh fully charged battery? 

 

If I am adding this up right, it sounds to me like it's time to pull the engine and dig into it again.

Edited May 6, 2020 by keithb7

[plymouthcranbrook]

Although Keith’s is most likely right about the end result I have helped my neighbor start rebuilds he did by pushing the car with my truck up to about 15 mph or so and gently letting the clutch out in second or third gear.  Always started and one I know of ran for several years  afterward without trouble until rust reclaimed it.

[Eneto-55]

Thanks for all of the responses.

 

Yes, the overhaul was in either 80 or 81.  (Bought the car in 80, and had it back in the car well before I stopped working on it, sometime in 81, because I lived in Texas before I moved to Ohio in 83.  I looked at the back of the photo I took when I was ready to install it, and it was developed March 81, so we probably did the rebuild during the winter of 80-81, as I wouldn't have been able to get the shop warm enough in that time of year to do any painting or body work.)

 

For years, every time we were back in the States, and visiting my parents, I would crawl under the car & turn it a couple of revolutions with a large screw driver, on the flywheel.  (I still haven't installed the fly wheel cover.)  Later I was concerned about doing this w/o first running up the oil pressure, so I haven't done that for probably around the last 10 years or so.  But I'm sure it would still turn over just as well as it did at the start.

 

To explain more - the reason the dealership mechanics pulled the car around the block a few times after doing an over-haul was because the engine was too tight for the starter to turn it.  (Or maybe just tight enough that they didn't want to risk the starter.)  I don't remember now if they would actually start it that way the first time - likely so.  I have never installed a battery in my car, as I was doing a complete restoration-rebuild, and so I wasn't ready for that.

 

The concern I would have about the main bearings is that the manual states that if you turn it like a quarter turn, and it's really tight, you should stop & make changes to the bearings, or it will mar the surface.  I know that they did it that way at the dealer back in Tulsa (Four-States it was called.), but obviously I have no way of knowing how long their over-haul jobs lasted.  

 

We installed new pistons, rings, valves & valve seats - all of that came with the car when I bought it as a "basket-case" that someone else had given up on completing.  (I don't give up easily - that's why I still have the car nearly 40 years later....)  

 

I guess on the one hand I'm thinking that I might as well leave it as it is, because if I have to tear it all down now, or later for another rebuild, what's the real difference?  My dad was not a mechanic, but had over-hauled engines before, and he knew his stuff.  It's just that reading the MoPar manual, I really have to doubt that very many mechanics - even in dealerships - actually followed all of the instructions & test procedures that are in there.  Is it a case of the Chrysler Corp. just covering their own liabilities?  Was there any effort to verify that the dealerships & their mechanics followed the 'proper' procedures?  And who wrote those manuals?  Do you all suppose they had any real mechanics (with actual field experience, I mean) helping in putting their manuals together?

Edited May 6, 2020 by Eneto-55
correct spelling

[RobertKB]

I would get a pressure oil injector(not sure of exact term)  if you can buy one cheaply or rent one. You fill with oil, put the fitting end of its connecting hose into one of the plug holes in the oil passage, connect the injector to an air hose and start filling the engine with oil that way. It completely oils the engine which would be great for the bearing and rings. Once that is done and the oil level is high enough and the plug replaced, you can turn the engine over with the starter. Make sure you have gas and spark to the engine and it is hopefully ready to fire. I did this on the freshly rebuilt engine for my ' 51 Dodge D39  business coupe which had sat for nearly a year before I first fired it. If all is well you are set. If any damage was done earlier turning the engine over by hand, it has to come apart anyway. My guess is you will be OK but that is only my opinion. Others may disagree.

[Eneto-55]

New meaning for the MoPar Manual Blues ....

 

Who writes these?!

Discovering mistakes.  Here's a couple I've found so far.  (Not counting spelling errors.)

 

1.) Like it says that on late P-15 Plymouth cars, the Vehicle Number (Serial Number) plate is located on the right front pillar, and on the left front pillar for the early P-15 models.  [Not exactly a mistake, but actually, I've only ever seen one P-15 that had it on the right front pillar, and that was a 47, while my 46 has it on the left front pillar.  I cannot remember now what factory that one came from, but always wondered if one factory put it in a different place, if they had some model 42 A pillars to use up, or if some guys just couldn't remember where it went.  (I've never thought to take measurements of the exact location, to see if the holes were likely pre-punched, but I would expect they were.)]

2.) It gives the tire size for the P-15 as 6.70 x 15.  [I know that the LATE P-15's took 15" wheels & tires, but the 46 (& I think all of the 47's) took the 6.00 x 16.]

[MackTheFinger]

+1 on the webmaster's reply. Dropping the pan and checking bearing clearances is likely the best bet. OTOH, with caveats implied; if I was doing it I'd pull the plugs, squirt some oil down the cylinders and if the motor turns over I'd try to get it started. 

[Plymouthy Adams]

14 hours ago, Eneto-55 said:

New meaning for the MoPar Manual Blues ....

 

Who writes these?!

Discovering mistakes.  Here's a couple I've found so far.  (Not counting spelling errors.)

 

1.) Like it says that on late P-15 Plymouth cars, the Vehicle Number (Serial Number) plate is located on the right front pillar, and on the left front pillar for the early P-15 models.  [Not exactly a mistake, but actually, I've only ever seen one P-15 that had it on the right front pillar, and that was a 47, while my 46 has it on the left front pillar.  I cannot remember now what factory that one came from, but always wondered if one factory put it in a different place, if they had some model 42 A pillars to use up, or if some guys just couldn't remember where it went.  (I've never thought to take measurements of the exact location, to see if the holes were likely pre-punched, but I would expect they were.)]

2.) It gives the tire size for the P-15 as 6.70 x 15.  [I know that the LATE P-15's took 15" wheels & tires, but the 46 (& I think all of the 47's) took the 6.00 x 16.]

 

While I will not say you nit picking I will state that reproduction books true to the term reproduction will include data that has later been changed/amended and upgraded.  I can also say with certainty that the books go to press with the new introduced model and many supporting documents and data long before the actually assembly starts.  This is even trued for todays newer models.  The 54 Plymouth I have here has some features on it that are in no manner covered by the book but by later released bulletin/service manuals to cover the running changes throughout the year.   In many cases these are now known and to that effect the book if a true reproduction falls within the 'forgiveness' portion of reality.  I am thankful not only for the books still being made available, but also for forums such as these that quietly but effectively disseminate the updated segments to new owner who if proactive in their search can easily and quickly get up to speed.  

[Sam Buchanan]

14 hours ago, Eneto-55 said:

New meaning for the MoPar Manual Blues ....

 

Who writes these?!

 

The question should be "Who wrote these?".

 

The manuals I have are reproductions of manuals that were published in the early '50's. That means the authors are almost certainly long gone....RIP.

[Tom Skinner]

Eneto-55,

No disrespect intended. There are also Service Booklets available through this site and You-Tube which are also helpful. 

With 870 Posts it looks like you are a Senior Member. There should be ample Literature for you to refer to for any repairs.

Personally I would turn some wrenches and look into that engine before starting it. Unless your up in age, even then,

I would have a pair of younger arms nearby to assist me. Where there is a will there is a way.

J.M.H.O.

Tom

[Eneto-55]

2 hours ago, Tom Skinner said:

Eneto-55,

No disrespect intended. There are also Service Booklets available through this site and You-Tube which are also helpful. 

With 870 Posts it looks like you are a Senior Member. There should be ample Literature for you to refer to for any repairs.

Personally I would turn some wrenches and look into that engine before starting it. Unless your up in age, even then,

I would have a pair of younger arms nearby to assist me. Where there is a will there is a way.

J.M.H.O.

Tom

Thanks for the input.  I figured all along that's what I *should* do, but was hoping it would not be necessary.

I don't know what "up in age" means, but we rebuilt the engine back in 1980, and I was around 25 at the time, so maybe that makes me "up in age".....  Retirement is still a ways off for me, and as a self-employed person running a one-man business, it'll be a while before I am able to deal with this issue.  I guess we'll see first if I am ever able to get to it at all before I would have to hire someone to do all of the grunt work.

[Eneto-55]

4 hours ago, MackTheFinger said:

+1 on the webmaster's reply. Dropping the pan and checking bearing clearances is likely the best bet. OTOH, with caveats implied; if I was doing it I'd pull the plugs, squirt some oil down the cylinders and if the motor turns over I'd try to get it started. 

I have never installed plugs yet - it has the "over-haul" pressed paper "plugs" in the spark plug holes, just to keep dirt & such (like mud-dobbers) out of there.  The engine can be turned over no problem, and the oil is as new looking as the day I put it in.  It has always been stored inside since the over-haul, and when we were back in the States on missionary home assignments every 3 years or so, I would slide under it & turn it over a few times, working with a large screw driver on the flywheel.

[Eneto-55]

2 hours ago, Sam Buchanan said:

 

The question should be "Who wrote these?".

 

The manuals I have are reproductions of manuals that were published in the early '50's. That means the authors are almost certainly long gone....RIP.

 

Maybe I should have asked "Who proof-read these?"  I didn't say it that way, but I was also wondering about the manuals being produced now - Are there experienced mechanics, engineers, etc., in on the proof-reading process, or do they just put a bunch of office staff on a work-group to write up this stuff.  The question behind the question is whether the persons doing the compilation are familiar with the topics they are writing about, or are they just referring to other materials they have at their disposal?  

 

But yes, possibly no longer living.  My father-in-law is going to be 99 in August, so to him, a person who was 25 in 1950 would still be younger than him.  But I imagine that they pasted in stuff from previous issues as much as possible, so once an error found its way into a manual, it would be republished various times.  But I also doubt if they had the engineers writing or proof-reading repair manuals.  My point was just that now, all these years later, we look to these manuals as "proof" of the true answer to our questions, and now that I find errors, I wonder what else is incorrect.  (By the way, I'm pretty certain that my copy of this manual is an original.  I don't have any other original MoPar manuals, just some Motor Manuals from this same era.  All of the rest of the MoPar manuals I have are either from downloads from this site, or from some other private & on-line sources.)

[Sam Buchanan]

1 hour ago, Eneto-55 said:

 

Maybe I should have asked "Who proof-read these?"  I didn't say it that way, but I was also wondering about the manuals being produced now - Are there experienced mechanics, engineers, etc., in on the proof-reading process, or do they just put a bunch of office staff on a work-group to write up this stuff.  The question behind the question is whether the persons doing the compilation are familiar with the topics they are writing about, or are they just referring to other materials they have at their disposal?  

 

But yes, possibly no longer living.  My father-in-law is going to be 99 in August, so to him, a person who was 25 in 1950 would still be younger than him.  But I imagine that they pasted in stuff from previous issues as much as possible, so once an error found its way into a manual, it would be republished various times.  But I also doubt if they had the engineers writing or proof-reading repair manuals.  My point was just that now, all these years later, we look to these manuals as "proof" of the true answer to our questions, and now that I find errors, I wonder what else is incorrect.  (By the way, I'm pretty certain that my copy of this manual is an original.  I don't have any other original MoPar manuals, just some Motor Manuals from this same era.  All of the rest of the MoPar manuals I have are either from downloads from this site, or from some other private & on-line sources.)

 

I mis-spoke, the two manuals I have are both originals best I can tell.

 

 

The only ones I've seen lately are just scans of these old manuals, so there is no "proof-reading" occurring. But these are exceedingly simple cars that are much more tolerant of "shade-tree" engineering than the computers we drive today.  Fortunately the superb Master Tech films are still available for download.   

Edited May 31, 2020 by Sam Buchanan

[Veemoney]

On 5/6/2020 at 11:53 AM, Eneto-55 said:

For years, every time we were back in the States, and visiting my parents, I would crawl under the car & turn it a couple of revolutions with a large screw driver, on the flywheel.  (I still haven't installed the fly wheel cover.)  Later I was concerned about doing this w/o first running up the oil pressure, so I haven't done that for probably around the last 10 years or so.  But I'm sure it would still turn over just as well as it did at the start.

 

On 5/6/2020 at 8:36 AM, Eneto-55 said:

My dad just knew how they did it at the Chrysler-Plymouth-DeSoto-Dodge dealership where he worked from the mid 50's up until the early to mid 60's

 

Eneto,

Based on the 2 statements you made above I would say if you can still turn it over with a screw driver your fine. Your dad had some experience and would have surely used some lube during assembly back in 80 and 30 years later you were still turning it by screw driver so my opinion is your good. What ever was used on the crank during assembly is still there if you were just turning it over as stated. Because you were able to turn it over and if you still can I feel you should have nothing "To Tight" that would cause any harm. I would pull the plugs and make sure it still turned over by hand and if so then bump it over using the starter a few times with the plugs out.   If your going to try and start it put the plugs back in and if not you may squirt a small amount of oil in each cylinder before putting the plugs back in till you are. 

Good Luck 

 

 

[Tom Skinner]

Turning a wrench is not  Grunt Work.

Suit yourself.

You must know more than me.

Congratulations.

Mr. Know it all.

I hope you feel superior.

Thank you from all us mechanics.

Tom

[Tom Skinner]

I guess a fat wallet is bigger than a solution

[Sam Buchanan]

Wow.......that was really productive......

[Eneto-55]

1 hour ago, Tom Skinner said:

Turning a wrench is not  Grunt Work.

Suit yourself.

You must know more than me.

Congratulations.

Mr. Know it all.

I hope you feel superior.

Thank you from all us mechanics.

Tom

 

I don't know what I said that sounded like a know-it-all, but I apologize for any thing I said, or the tone of what I said, that was offensive.  I do not consider myself to "know it all", or I wouldn't be asking questions here - I'd just be "dispensing my great knowledge" (which I do not claim, either publicly, or privately).  So no, I do not feel superior.

By "grunt work" I meant pulling the engine again, tearing it down, etc.  My Dad had tools back then that I do not have, nor can I afford to  purchase them, at least not now.  I also had my younger brother around about all of the time, too.  Maybe I need to look up the definition of "grunt work".  (I also cannot afford to hire this work out.  If it comes to that, I'll be forced to sell the car.  It's a hobby I couldn't let go of easily, but I won't let it become a "money hole", either.)

All the best to you, and I appreciate everyone's input, even when it isn't quite what I wanted to hear.

[Tom Skinner]

I am not here to school anyone. So fine. Everyone satisfy your selves. Mechanics work. Talkers talk.

Good luck and enjoy yourselves. Fix it. Pay someone to fix it. Love Peace and Hair Greece to everyone concerned.

Tom

[Sniper]

It's grease not Greece, one is a lubricant the other a country but one would think a mechanic would about the lubricant one.  Unbunch your panties Tom.  The OP is about 65 if my math is right, picking heavy stuff up is probably more than he wants to deal with, you know the kind of heavy stuff that makes a worker grunt picking up, but then again only a worker would know that.

[Tom Skinner]

Yeah Sniper,

I am his age. It ain't easy working on these old Flat Heads. I am with it. I hope he finds a easy solution. Some times tearing down an engine is what is necessary.

My Panties are unbunched.

Tom