Spring start up woes

[ggdad1951]

I've already had a convo with Merle on the phone, but I've had a SNAFU with FEF.   Monday I dropped him off at a car club buddies shop (wheel and frame shop) to figure out my front tire uneven wear issue and everything was just fine.  I picked him up yesterday in the rain....I now know the windshield leaks in the center and drivers lower corner   and the ammeter was reading negative.  With the headlight on (raining) it was reading -25A.  Mind you I drove home no problem.  And have since started him up several times with no problems.  

 

This is what I've checked/symptoms: 

disconnected battery, and took the cover off the VR and made sure the contacts were freely moving and not welded together

if I tap on the gauge it bounces around a bunch, even with the key off

gas gauge started to bounce around a bunch I noticed (moreso than usual)

key off the ammeter still reads negative

using any electrical system the gauge drops more (see above)

under 2k miles since everything was rebuilt or replaced with new

 

Pretty sure it's not a ground issue as the gauge drops when turning on the lights (so it seems the gauge it working)

 

That leaves:  bad geni, bad VR, bad gauge, or some huge random draw that cropped up (fuel gauge/sender bad)?

 

I'll kindly take your thoughts as I have a Mystery Run to attend this weekend and want to drive FEF.  I plan on picking up a new VR today to swap that out tonight.

 

 

BTW: uneven tire wear was due to the shims on the front axle being on backwards....so much for memory and pictures on reassemble 7 years ago.

 

[Young Ed]

Glad your front axle was an easy fix!   I've personally never seen a bad VR cause a discharge like that with the engine off. Sounds like you've got something drawing that shouldn't be. With everything off how much is it showing negative?

 

[squirebill]

Sounds like a "short".  Disconnect a battery cable and see if the ammeter goes to zero. If not would suspect a bad ammeter.  If it does go to zero, hook the battery back up at night or in a dark garage and you may be able to see the arc at the location of the short.

[ggdad1951]

disconnect the battery and still shows negative a little (say the width of the needle)

 

[Merle Coggins]

That may be normal. I don't believe mine sits dead on 0 either.

Did you try jumping the Batt to Arm to see if would charge, like we discussed?

[ggdad1951]

36 minutes ago, Merle Coggins said:

That may be normal. I don't believe mine sits dead on 0 either.

Did you try jumping the Batt to Arm to see if would charge, like we discussed?

 

no, not yet...need a 2nd body to do that...wife wasn't about to get up at 4AM when I was up messing around on a truck.

 

[Los_Control]

This is going to sound silly ... thinking out loud

If by chance the battery cables to the battery got reversed, negative ground instead of positive, would the amp gauge show a discharge instead of a + charge?

 

Just a thought, sure you would not make that mistake. ... Me, you never know 

[ggdad1951]

3 hours ago, Los_Control said:

This is going to sound silly ... thinking out loud

If by chance the battery cables to the battery got reversed, negative ground instead of positive, would the amp gauge show a discharge instead of a + charge?

 

Just a thought, sure you would not make that mistake. ... Me, you never know 

 

if that was the case, when I pulled the headlight switch out it would jump up and not down...regardless I checked polarity and there was no reason to pull the battery to fix the axle.

[Jeff Balazs]

Mark;

Could be something moisture related. Maybe a bit of water got somewhere it shouldn't? It is a bear to get the leaks at the windshield stopped. I had a problem with these leaks getting to my headlight switch this winter. Went out early one rainy morning and about half the lights were not working. Gauges read funny as well. I ended up pulling the headlight switch and it was wet and was beginning to show signs of corroding. I took it apart and gave everything a good cleaning and low and behold all the problems were fixed. 15 minute job.  Your problem might be something similar.

.

Jeff

[HotRodTractor]

The common denominator at the moment is that the gauge reading negative occurred at the same time as the windshield leaking - and I have not read that you have any other symptoms of an issue other than the gauge reading negative - correct? Is your battery draining and you need to jump it to start it? 

 

I would dry out the cab of the truck - open the doors, toss a fan in, maybe a bit of heat and just let it dry out. Come back to it dried out and a clean slate on troubleshooting it.

[ggdad1951]

Actually i don't think any water penetrated the cab until after I drove for quite a ways....it was parked inside a building the whole time....

[48Dodger]

Did you check for any dead rodents crossing up your leads behind the dash?

 

48D

[ggdad1951]

1 hour ago, 48Dodger said:

Did you check for any dead rodents crossing up your leads behind the dash?

 

48D

 

no rodents in my shop with Puma on the prowl....this isn't CA! 

[ggdad1951]

so, thought here...battery was dead this spring had to recharge...maybe I just lost polarity?  If so what kind of "damage" could have been done to the VR or battery?

[Jeff Balazs]

Don't know about the regulator thing or polarity of the generator. I run a single wire 6V alternator . 4 years of daily use and it has been totally carefree.

If it was me I would be looking hard for either a loose wiring connection or a bad switch. What I do know is when it is a 6 volt system everything must be in very good shape or there will be problems. One of the main reasons that 6V was abandoned in favor of 12V was the frequency of electrical issues. The fact that the gauge jumps around when you tap it might be an indicator of some sort of failure there.......

Jeff

[Plymouthy Adams]

a hand over hand of the harness in areas prone to chaffing is warranted, also, though you tightened the connection on install, high current flow will cause heat and cool cycles and those once tight connections are now suspect as they can now be loose and if they are loose now, an increased current is likely and accelerates the loss of power when needed.  Areas of concern for connections are the three main wiring distribution points being the amp gauge, ignition switch and the HL switch and some time if electric wipers these posts are often used as feeders to other circuits.  If any loose connections are found I recommend star washers be used on the posts to ensure a good bite.   

 

as for charging the battery...afterwards, did  you check the voltage output of the regulator/generator back to the battery.  Loss of residual is not a real common problem unless you robbing that magnetism with another metal object.  Odds are loss or reversed polarity is not a damaging factor...once corrected the components work well.  Install a good amp meter inline of the battery and the hot cable...ENSURE all items are powered off....if a clock is installed, disconnect the fuse.  If you show current on your meter you have an circuit that is going to ground somewhere..

Edited May 2, 2019 by Plymouthy Adams

[John-T-53]

Is the cutout relay on the regulator stuck closed? It should open when the IGN is OFF or otherwise low charging condition (to prevent the battery from draining. Also, if the ammeter moves when you rap on the gage face that might signal loose connections at the back side like others suggested.

 

How old is the battery? It might be part of the problem. take it down to NAPA and have them test for a bad cell.

 

Was the generator polarized if it, the regulator, or battery was disconnected?

 

I recently went through all this with my regulator, let me find pics when I was using my current and volt meter/tester and remember what I did...

 

In short, you need some instruments to find out what's going on here.

 

 

Edited May 3, 2019 by John-T-53

[ggdad1951]

well spent some time last night and landed here:

 

Wire/terminal tightness: good

Check for dead rodentia:  none

Gen was re-polarized: no change

Checked battery voltage:  good (6.22V)

Started the truck: voltage at battery climbed slightly (6.25V)

Did Merle's check (engine running with RMPs, bridge the ARM and BAT):  Ammeter went positive

 

So from that I'm going with a bad VR.  After half an hour a restart had the Ammeter negative again, confirming Merle's theory of bad VR.  Will replace today/tonight.  Regardless I was getting SOME voltage to the battery as tested and proven with over a dozen starts with no appreciable loss of battery voltage or starting performance.  Better safe then sorry.

[John-T-53]

Here's a good little cheat sheet I got from  ole's carburetor in San Bruno. In addition to carbs, they rebuild engine accessories. 

 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2019 by John-T-53

[John-T-53]

This is the bit about polarizing. This is the thing that Merle suggested although I didn't know it would move the needle on the meter...

[John-T-53]

4 hours ago, ggdad1951 said:

well spent some time last night and landed here:

 

Wire/terminal tightness: good

Check for dead rodentia:  none

Gen was re-polarized: no change

Checked battery voltage:  good (6.22V)

Started the truck: voltage at battery climbed slightly (6.25V)

Did Merle's check (engine running with RMPs, bridge the ARM and BAT):  Ammeter went positive

 

So from that I'm going with a bad VR.  After half an hour a restart had the Ammeter negative again, confirming Merle's theory of bad VR.  Will replace today/tonight.  Regardless I was getting SOME voltage to the battery as tested and proven with over a dozen starts with no appreciable loss of battery voltage or starting performance.  Better safe then sorry.

 

You should have more like 7.5 V.  The first photo below shows the voltage range in the green (upper scale). You can adjust the output by setting the contact point gap and bending spring tabs. 

 

I wonder if a low battery fried something when you started it up?

 

The second photo is the current reading (Lower scale) with meter connected in series. Readings are always taken with a load on the battery, in this case with the headlights on and heater motor full blast. 

 

The factory shop manual gives good instructions on how to service the regulator, I followed them to service mine after about ten years of use - now it's working good again. The points erode and transfer metal over time which leads to decreased performance. All you need to do is file the points and reset the gaps and springs. It's a little tedious but it works. Note: I used small drill bits that were in the range of the specified point gap instead of pin-type gauges. And, the cover must be on while taking readings!

 

Edited May 3, 2019 by John-T-53

[John-T-53]

Left to right:

 

Voltage regulator (with contact point bracket removed), Current regulator, & cutout relay (circuit breaker).

[Dave72dt]

You may be correct with the low batt possibly causing the VR burnout although we don't know if the battery was fully charged prior to starting or just boosted to start. a common practice.  Instructions when replacing modern alternators state a battery should be fully charged prior to putting the new alt into service.  They work at max output for so long to bring the batt fully up that they often fry themselves.  Perhaps a better description of them would be as a battery maintainer instead of as a battery charger.   I wouldn't be surprised if a VR could be fried the same way

[MBF]

Make sure that you have a good battery to body ground.  The voltage regulator needs a good ground to work properly.  Had this problem with one of mine, and you may want to dress the points with some crocus cloth to make sure the contacts are clean.   I thought mine was bad, but it ended up being a ground problem.

 

[ggdad1951]

Battery ground is just fine thank you, it's about as grounded as it can be.

 

As for charge of battery prior to start, I ALWAYS fully charge prior to starting a vehicle .