251 swap

[Bill from SE WA]

So here are a few pictures of my project.  I took the nose off because I am working on practically everything on the front of the truck.

Right away, I noticed a difference between the 230 D24 engine that's installed and the 251 T154 that I want to put in.

The front pulley on the D24 is really close to the front cross member and about 6 1/5 inches in diameter.

The front pulley on the T154 is 8 1/2 inches in diameter and there is no way it will clear the front cross member.  

The other thing I noticed is the D24 is a dampener and the T154  is just a pulley.  Wouldn't T154 need a dampener?

In order to make this work, can I just put the dampener from the 230 on the 251? 

 

[Don Coatney]

This is what I did om my car to make it work.

[timkingsbury]

On 12/26/2016 at 10:18 PM, Bill from SE WA said:

So here are a few pictures of my project.  I took the nose off because I am working on practically everything on the front of the truck.

Right away, I noticed a difference between the 230 D24 engine that's installed and the 251 T154 that I want to put in.

The front pulley on the D24 is really close to the front cross member and about 6 1/5 inches in diameter.

The front pulley on the T154 is 8 1/2 inches in diameter and there is no way it will clear the front cross member.  

The other thing I noticed is the D24 is a dampener and the T154  is just a pulley.  Wouldn't T154 need a dampener?

In order to make this work, can I just put the dampener from the 230 on the 251? 

 

Happy to have a chat with you and currently my families truck collection sits at over 85 trucks, the vast majority are Canadian Big blocks.   The USA small blog has offset rods and so does require a damper. The 250 ci as is every Canadian 25 1/2" big block, does not have the offset rods/crank combination and does not need the external damper pulley. USA 23 1/2" small blocks are not 25 1/2" big blocks and while lots of big blocks have damper pulleys for various reasons, every 250 ever made can run just fine without one and in fact I own many trucks with factory 250s in them that have no damper pulleys.  In your case, looking at only a limited number of pictures there are a few things that come to mind.  If you want to chat about potential solutions send me a PM and I can try and make sure I am following thing and give you an opinion from someone who owns a collection of trucks with various configurations and a big number of which are from the 238/250/265 series of engines.

 

Tim

fargopickupking@yahoo.com

[Brent B3B]

nice looking project Bill, keep us posted 

[Jeff Balazs]

And here we go again........

Glad I am planning a Mazda rotary swap.

[55 Fargo]

25 minutes ago, Jeff Balazs said:

And here we go again........

Glad I am planning a Mazda rotary swap.

Huh, nah can see you with a Brigs and Stratton swap......LOL

[greg g]

You think the rotary has enough torque for truck work???  When I had my RX 4, a friend had the Mazda pick up. Quite a quick truck empty but most unsatisfactory when loaded or towing.  He went through clutches on a frequent basis.  He used the truck for towing a formula Super V car and tires, tools and camping gear to races and auto crosses.  He upgraded to a Jeep Cherokee after about three years and four friction discs.

[Plymouthy Adams]

the cross member gets in the way in other types of upgrades and requires a tad of massage.  In the case of the Mopar big block in the 41 Dodge, the cross member was ok in the area of the balancer/lower pulley, the oil filter being as it is on a big block did require alteration for filter clearance and room to service, just the nature of the beast to expect some clearance issue with upgrades...problem is that many did not envision these in their planning process and get caught short and have to back up and or in some cases abort...

[Reg Evans]

Here's what I had to do to install a 251 in my 52 1/2 ton back in 1997.  I think the radiator I used must have been taken from a big truck cause I had to move it forward.

 

[55 Fargo]

15 minutes ago, Reg Evans said:

Here's what I had to do to install a 251 in my 52 1/2 ton back in 1997.  I think the radiator I used must have been taken from a big truck cause I had to move it forward.

 

Hi Reg, you had a short 218 before? Bet you noticed a difference in the get up and go with the 250...

[Reg Evans]

Yes, it was originally a 218 and yes....... I noticed the increase in power !

[Bill from SE WA]

Hi Everyone,

 

Thanks for all  the great ideas.  I thought about notching the cross member. I have seen that done before and I'm not opposed to doing that. Tim's post got me to thinking that if you don't need a dampener, then I could probably run a different smaller diameter pulley.  So I took both the 230 and the 251 crank pulley's off.  Of course they are different, but I can modify the 230 to fit the 251.  Here is a picture of the two.  The 251 is the larger of the two.  I cleaned up the 230 pulley so I modify it to fit.

 

[Don Coatney]

Is the V-belt the same width on both pulleys? I am sure you have already figured out that bolt pattern for the 6 bolts is not symmetric and will only bolt on one way. It shows in both of your photos as the bolt in the 2:00 o'clock position is closer to the hub center.

[Desotodav]

5 hours ago, Jeff Balazs said:

And here we go again........

Glad I am planning a Mazda rotary swap.

I've changed my mind for my 55 truck since then Jeff. It seems like a turbo Ford engine would be a lot easier to do as it is just about the same dimensions and similar cubic capacity to the original MOPAR engine. My only issue now is that wifey told me that restoring 2 trucks is enough! Looks like it went well for this fella though...

 

Edited December 27, 2016 by Desotodav

[timkingsbury]

3 hours ago, Bill from SE WA said:

Hi Everyone,

 

Thanks for all  the great ideas.  I thought about notching the cross member. I have seen that done before and I'm not opposed to doing that. Tim's post got me to thinking that if you don't need a dampener, then I could probably run a different smaller diameter pulley.  So I took both the 230 and the 251 crank pulley's off.  Of course they are different, but I can modify the 230 to fit the 251.  Here is a picture of the two.  The 251 is the larger of the two.  I cleaned up the 230 pulley so I modify it to fit.

 

You do not need the damper.  I am not sure if those two pulleys have the same pattern although easy enough to check. If your stuck I can dig you up a pulley from a Canadian install and send it to you.  No charge!

[Plymouthy Adams]

I have done a big block in a 1941 Dodge car and I have also done a big block in a 1941 Dodge truck....my intent was to inform the original poster to expect some mods along the way and embrace them with gusto and get the job done....

[timkingsbury]

4 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

I have done a big block in a 1941 Dodge car and I have also done a big block in a 1941 Dodge truck....sorry if my post upset you...my intent was to inform the original poster to expect some mods along the way and embrace them with gusto and get the job done....

I assume your referring to me.   lol..  you certainly don't upset me.   I was just trying to figure out what you were referring to.   I definitely missed your 41 Dodge car and Truck build. Id love to see that build documentation, but alias that is stuff for another topic. 

[oldasdirt]

8 hours ago, Reg Evans said:

Here's what I had to do to install a 251 in my 52 1/2 ton back in 1997.  I think the radiator I used must have been taken from a big truck cause I had to move it forward.

 

I did an upgrade on a 1952 around 1973 and I had to move the rad ahead 2" on mine. The holes were already predrilled in the frame.   I didn't have to cut the frame. I did have to get a truck oil pan though as the engine I used came out of a Chrysler Windsor and the car pan was different than the truck.   The 265 ci motor I used did not have a harmonic balancer on it so I didn't have to deal with that.   I have been following Fred from Germany upgrading his car to a 265 motor and he didn't have to trim the front frame but decided if he did that he would have a lot more room to change a belt. That made a lot of sense in my mind. I would however differ to Tim Kingsbury. I've seen 1st hand a great deal of his collection of trucks and its beyond incredible. From small blocks to big blocks to those really big block monsters its quite a collection. He was just finishing up a USA 1936 Dodge which was a small block originally, upgrading it to a 1936 Canadian engine. I realize that is a different generation truck. I do not remember any cutting on that one.  If there was it was well  disguised.  I also got a ride in a Fargo pickup that was billed as his Mom's truck. His Dad had put an A833 4 speed in it.  I didn't have a stop watch but we were 0-100 mph pretty dam quick and I think that was a 251 ci motor. 

[fredsv8shop]

Same here, putting a 265 in my 1950 Buzz Coupe and Don Steered me the way of modifying my front cross member.

Car has been running like a charm since, plenty of power since the tired 218

[fredsv8shop]

The radiator has a tight fit , and a electric fan is doing the cooling now .

Found the  brand new engine long time ago on Amsterdam Airport as a spare engine for a airplane tractor, brand new in a crate.

  

[fredsv8shop]

By the way , bought myself a Dodge pick-up as well. Only not so original as seen here on the forum.

[55 Fargo]

On 12/28/2016 at 3:38 AM, fredsv8shop said:

The radiator has a tight fit , and a electric fan is doing the cooling now .

Found the  brand new engine long time ago on Amsterdam Airport as a spare engine for a airplane tractor, brand new in a crate.

  

I recall your "Engine Find" a very nice score, glad it worked out for you.

Now Fred,  there are obvious courses of action to follow. In Holland, ( we helped liberate) were a lot of the old Chrysler built cars and trucks imported from Windsor Canada?

 

 

[ggdad1951]

I've heavily moded this thread touching almost every single post in it in one way or the other.  I hope this is the last of it.  

Please continue on discussing this 251 swap in a civil manner. 

[Young Ed]

This is how someone did it on my 47 pickup. You can see two pieces of angle iron up front that were the new mounts. I can't say how much effect that slight change in angle would have on the rear motor mounts but it appeared they had it installed and running for quite some time. 

 

I did pull this six and gave it to another forum member many years ago. I believe he was putting it in a 41 plymouth car of some sort. 

 

[Merle Coggins]

On 12/28/2016 at 3:21 AM, fredsv8shop said:

Same here, putting a 265 in my 1950 Buzz Coupe and Don Steered me the way of modifying my front cross member.

Car has been running like a charm since, plenty of power since the tired 218

Fred, How is this front mount working? At first I thought it was a rigid mount, but then I noticed the rubber isolators under there. However, I remember seeing something about the "Floating Power" front mounts that showed the advantage of having the front up higher, under the water pump. I can't find the information now, but I remember it had something to do with the oscillations and/or vibrations. With both of your mounts being quite low in the engine I am curious how well that works. Does the higher front mount make that much difference? 

Not criticizing in any way... just wondering out loud.

Merle