1954 Plymouth Suburban Project

[james curl]

I use a cut off wheel on my 4.5" angle grinder to do the cut outs and also for the patches.  If you are careful the cut can be straight and true with out burrs.  I find the cut off wheel to be much easier and faster to use than my reciprocating saw.  You might want to try a thin cut off wheel in your angle grinder.  I use mine to cut up to 3/8" steel plate to make parts with.  I do go through a lot of discs.

[Jeff Balazs]

Look at you Paul! It won't be long and you will probably be opening your own shop. "Classics and customs by Paul" or

"Up in Pflames" something like that.

You get an A+++  for tenacity.......the stuff you are getting into would have scared me off long ago.

Keep up the good work.

Jeff

[pflaming]

James, for me the thin cutting discs work well to cut out a rusty panel, but I get straighter cuts with my Sawzall reciprocating saw.  Jeff, I may be a bit adventurous, but you have to know that my generation grew up building our own toys, salvaging bikes from the dumps and making one, etc., so dismantling and reconstructing an existing machine to us is just advanced play time. 

 

When I had that long cut 'cleaned out' , so I thought, I aimed my air hose into that cavity and lightly tapped on the side panel, I was amazed what came out. I guarantee you, that cavity is clean now. 

 

Question: I have some panels flanged on the top to hold that edge in and then a natural bow/curve results when the panel  is attached at the bottom. As a result, that panel must be under some 'pressure'. Is that co-sure? i.e., OK? 

[pflaming]

Well it's time to take a good look under neath AND Christmas arrived early today. Received two (2) radios and some very nice grill parts from Murfman. The long radio is a 608 the short one is an 810. Speaker is included. I've got to get this body done and to the painter so I can install these pieces. The grille pieces are fantastic. Thank you Muff whereever you are. 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2018 by pflaming

[Dave72dt]

Question: I have some panels flanged on the top to hold that edge in and then a natural bow/curve results when the panel  is attached at the bottom. As a result, that panel must be under some 'pressure'. Is that co-sure? i.e., OK? 

 

Ideally they should have the shape you need without any force.  The clamps would be used to hold the part in position, not to give it shape.   If you need a bit of roll in the panel, bend it a bit over your leg.

[DJ194950]

I agree they should fit the opening without any type of force. If not, More shaping needed first!

 

Doug

[pflaming]

Post 404 shows my suburban lifted high with a good chain winch. I swept the floor under the car and with a good light, took a good look. OPS. When I installed the T-Bird floor I cut out the original floor which was about gone AND the drive line tunnel. That was a mistake. Now I have a huge dirt scoup in the bottom of the car. I would NOT have had to remove that center piece. (maybe I still have that piece and can weld it back in)

 

All the replacement plates are in place. Now I have to fit them. I did as Dave suggested and found that the metal is quite flexible and friendly to shaping. So tomorrow and Monday is fitting time, then welding time.

 

While under I turned the wheel and counted the revs on the 'U-joint). 2.2 turns. Got the same number with one wheel locked. Don't remember is that real time or is that half time i.e. 4:4.

 

It's been quite a week, sometimes it seems no progress is being made, but it eventually all adds up. Just got to be very aware of the moment, the detail is ever present. 

[pflaming]

If you just tuned in, this thread is by a retiree that has never done body work before. I did a great deal of reading and have a couple of books and car articles and what frustrated me was that all said, prep work is the foundation for a good paint job, but they never cut a car apart so I could see what was under the "little black skirt"!

 

I'm showing you what I'm discovering. This morning I discovered that all my work last week was a very important exercise in metal working and that most of the panels I made probably will not work.Additionally, I discovered that I have no choice, the rocker channel on the driver's side has to come out so it got cut out this morning. I was amazed at how much dirt was in that channel. 

 

So these two pictures show you four hours of study, observation, metal cutting and metal cleaning. Time sure goes fast when you are having fun! I have welded enough to know that I need shiny metal to weld so I took the grinder to the metal and that showed me what was not going to hold, so that meant more cutting. I've got shiny metal now. 

 

 

 

 

 

I think I can now finish that channel and quarter with two pieces which will reduce welding lineage required. 

Edited October 28, 2013 by pflaming

[Jim Yergin]

There is a new show on the Velocity cable channel called "Reality Rides," It is following the restoration of a 1955 Buick. This past week's episode dealt with the replacement of the rockers. You might want to check it out on this web site:

http://www.carlscustomcars.com/page6/page10/page10.html

 

Jim Yergin

[pflaming]

Thanks Jim, that was very helpful. That is what I am doing and to see that i'm on the correct path is encouraging. it's tedious work but the old rusty metal has to come out and then rebuild to a solid piece of metal.  It's just slow and DIRTY. 

[seabee]

Love the car, Paul!

[pflaming]

Now that the Overdrive experience is over, I can return to the suburban. I have learned that there are mechanical rules that must be adhered to for safety and performance reasons. For example: there is a reason why the brake lines are smaller to the front than to the back on the older cars; reason why over sized tires may not be safe; reason why the drive line specs of the engine, tyranny, differential,& tire size must be within a certain range just to list a few.

 

Now I really like the flat head engine but in today's world it has it's limitations. So considering all the above, since I have an '87 302 V8, with a matching tyranny, and rear axle all made in the USA and since I want the suburban as a personal daily driver  I am going to make a change and put that combo into the suburban. By doing that, I can keep the alloy wheels as well, all fully USA engineered. That 87 BIrd got 25+ mpg on the highway at 70 mph and should do that and maybe better in this body. Additionally, the wheel base in the T is 104" and the burb is 114" so it should drive and ride very nice. the T drive train is lighter than the cast iron flathead, and the Burb body is 400# lighter unless Tim or Don are in it. 

 

I will also swap the A/C, remove the EFI, and all smog items. I may have to modify the firewall but that will be metal 101 compared to replacing rocker panels.

 

Any help in this regard will be greatly appreciated. I respect differing opinions and will consider them.  So this coming week I will be back on the car and make it mine. 

 

It is humbling to note so many who have followed this thread;  this build is work but enjoyable work.  

 

I changed my point of view after reading Robert's post. It is foolish not to take into consideration other ideas that are available on this forum. 

Edited November 3, 2013 by pflaming

[RobertKB]

Sorry, Paul, but you asked for opinions so here is mine although I realize you only read them. Not fond of the new ideas. Your wagon with a rebuilt flattie and overdrive would take you anywhere. We used to have a member on the forum, Normspeed (probably lots of threads and posts by him still to be found), who had a '53 wagon with the original engine and an overdrive in it and he took it from New Mexico to Florida and back with no issues. You will face many issues installing a different engine but as you say, your choice. Good luck with the project.

[rkldesign]

I agree, the money saved on the mpg will be spent on road side assistance and trying to figure out what part of the modification caused the breakdown.

 

Richard

[pflaming]

My ensuing comments are not to be seen as a debate nor combative but rather as investigative.

 

Would the removal of the smog and the EFI and a swap to a carburater be a troublesome change?

The above a Negative, then mechanical modifications would include: foot pedal mount from above and installation of a firewall mounted master cylinder, all other modifications are structural i.e., inner fenders, possibly the firewall, radiator mount, floor pan tunnel, longer drive shaft, . . .

 

Question: Will the 218 power an A/C unit. That is the biggest interest in this valley.

Edited November 3, 2013 by pflaming

[JerseyHarold]

If you go with the Ford drivetrain, you will need all the wiring harnesses as well as the engine management computer(s).  You should also check with the powers that be in the Motor Vehicle Department about any legal/pollution issues that may arise from this swap.

 

Air conditioning compressors have been installed on flathead sixes and I'm sure the topic has been covered in this forum at some point.

Edited November 3, 2013 by JerseyHarold

[Old Ray]

 You should also check with the powers that be in the Motor Vehicle Department about any legal/pollution issues that may arise from this swap.

 

Never, never ask for permission, it just gives a bureaucrat a chance to say no.  

 

Sorry, but with the speeds required on even an occasional freeway detour from the back roads, even with an overdrive, a flattie is not going to cut it. (especially with air conditioning)

 

I would think the chance of a breakdown requiring repair would be far less probable with the 302 and auto trans.

 

I will let you know, as that is exactly what I am going to do (maybe even with the EFI) .  

[Scruffy49]

I'm sticking with points, but going with a V8/slushomatic in my Pilot House. Flatheads are cute, and while almost anvil reliable, are in fact unfortunately slower than mud flowing UP Mt Everest in January... Top speed on my truck, gas pedal mashed through the floorboard, was 53 miles per hour, unloaded, brand new.

Edited November 3, 2013 by Scruffy49

[DJ194950]

Paul,

Would you take a drive to Modesto and drive my 50 4dr.? 230 stock only slight cleaning up arround the valve pockets with an OD and 3.9 gears.

Easy cruise at 65+mph. I believe the drive may you rethink this new plan?

 

A newer slyle AC compressor only uses about 4-5 hp to run. Not a killer when driving, maybe a touch slower on take off.

 

Past posts have documented AC on our flatties.

 

The Furd 302 is basically a reliable motor. Buy a carb intake and carb., Distributor etc.= $800 + exhaust shorty manifolds(still probaby need mod. to clear steering) $300+, build motor mounts, trans mounts,recess fire wall, on and on. $$$$$

 

I know you plan to live much longer,But?

 

If you decide to do it, I know this forum will support you all the way, with ideas, tips, encouragement!

 

My 2 cent.

 

Best to ya,

 

Doug

[Young Ed]

For example: there is a reason why the brake lines are smaller to the front than to the back on the older cars;

 

say what?

[pflaming]

"I changed my point of view after reading Robert's post. It is foolish not to take into consideration other ideas that are available on this forum."

 

Additional posts to my question would possibly be redundant so I will post my thinking. To the point, Tim often counsels us to define our goal then research how to attain that. Don sent me a very helpful chart to determine speed results. 

 

So I have a hand held Disxon Tach. I am going to run the red wire to the (-) post on the coil and ground the black. Then temporarily mount the tach on my truck's dash. With someone following me, I am going to find out what speed(s) I am getting at specified rpms and then at 3200 rpm's which is the suggested best RPM to run at. 3400 is the recommended top RPM but they suggest to drop off some. For the 1933 Plymouth, the Standard Six had a 4.11 rear end ratio and 3300 RPM works out to 67 MPH. That quotation comes from the chart Don sent me.  I have a 3:73 so it will be interesting to find the results. 

 

This evening my thinking is that I can put a T-5 tyranny behind my 218, satisfactorily improve my MPG and end up with an uncomplicated, dependable vehicle. I then can duplicate that on the suburban. I will attempt to trade my '87 BIrd for a couple of T-5's and get what I want. I may have to ante up a little but not nearly so much as I would if I did the swap. There are now adapter kits available for this combination. Got to find out who they are. 

 

The V8 would provide a fun ride, but at a time and expense I do not need to make. I will report back. Thank you forum members. "Old dogs can learn new tricks". 

Edited November 4, 2013 by pflaming

[TodFitch]

Sounds like that chart that Don sent was based on my RPM calculator at http://www.ply33.com/Misc/speed#calc

 

Your mileage (RPM) will vary depending on mounted tire diameter, rear axle ratio and whether or not you have an overdrive transmission.

[Don Coatney]

Now that the Overdrive experience is over, I can return to the suburban. I have learned that there are mechanical rules that must be adhered to for safety and performance reasons. For example: there is a reason why the brake lines are smaller to the front than to the back on the older cars; reason why over sized tires may not be safe; reason why the drive line specs of the engine, tyranny, differential,& tire size must be within a certain range just to list a few.

 

Now I really like the flat head engine but in today's world it has it's limitations. So considering all the above, since I have an '87 302 V8, with a matching tyranny, and rear axle all made in the USA and since I want the suburban as a personal daily driver  I am going to make a change and put that combo into the suburban. By doing that, I can keep the alloy wheels as well, all fully USA engineered. That 87 BIrd got 25+ mpg on the highway at 70 mph and should do that and maybe better in this body. Additionally, the wheel base in the T is 104" and the burb is 114" so it should drive and ride very nice. the T drive train is lighter than the cast iron flathead, and the Burb body is 400# lighter unless Tim or Don are in it. 

 

I will also swap the A/C, remove the EFI, and all smog items. I may have to modify the firewall but that will be metal 101 compared to replacing rocker panels.

 

Any help in this regard will be greatly appreciated. I respect differing opinions and will consider them.  So this coming week I will be back on the car and make it mine. 

 

It is humbling to note so many who have followed this thread;  this build is work but enjoyable work.  

 

I changed my point of view after reading Robert's post. It is foolish not to take into consideration other ideas that are available on this forum. 

Only one thought. Peter Principal.

 

Sounds like that chart that Don sent was based on my RPM calculator at http://www.ply33.com/Misc/speed#calc

 

Your mileage (RPM) will vary depending on mounted tire diameter, rear axle ratio and whether or not you have an overdrive transmission.

Pasted below is exactly what I sent him. I dont know why he did not give you credit.

 

Sent 16 October 2013 - 12:25 AM

Find the "SPEED" calculator on the web page of forum member Tod Fitch. Then plug in the gear tire RPM combination that meets your objective. Keep in mind your engine maximum RPM's, peak HP and peak torque curve, and a 27-30% RPM reduction with an overdrive.

[pflaming]

My most sincere apologies to both. I'm still trying to find my way through a maze that is well known to many but not to all. I try to listen and apply the wisdom I receive from the forum, but don't always do it very well. 

Edited November 4, 2013 by pflaming

[Merle Coggins]

Paul,

Depending on your tire size, you should have similar findings to what my truck runs. As posted earlier this summer, http://p15-d24.com/topic/33532-westach-6v-tach/?hl=tach my truck runs around 3100 RPM at 65 MPH (indicated) and around 3300 RPM at 70 MPH (indicated). I also have 3.73 gears with 235/75R-15 tires with around 27.5" diameter. And as mentioned in that post, my indicated speed is about 3 MPH low at that speed.