Just posted this on the POC forum wonder if it will get any response?

[greg g]

Lets see if this will fly as a town meeting and stay civil

This will probably get me kicked off the forum as I will be espousing some non purist thoughts but here goes anyway. I would hope that general membership would chime in in support of and or against these proposals with some well though out comments.

I just attended the POC meet in Maryland. There were some very nice Plymouths in attendence, and some very nice folks also.

However there was a definate lack of new members about. One of the resons I think keeps folks from being attracted to these events is the Factory Stock Only preservation. Now this is a good thing and has kept the club going for a good many years, however, there seems to be more In Memoriums in the newsletters than Welcome New Members. Attracting new folks to the factory only gospel will become more and more difficult as time goes by.

Here is what I would like to see:

Create a seperate class for non stock cars, which would allow the use of bolt on modifications that are period correct to the car they are installed upon, and which would not hinder the car from being returned easily to stock configuration. Things like modified or after market intakes using period correct carburetors, split exhaust or period correct headers, wheel and tire combinations which are roadworthy and enhance the safety and drivability of a car. Safety upgrades like disc brakes, even engine swaps where the engine is from a mopar and of the same basic design.

Many engine swaps were performed as routine maintanence back in the day, when the stock engine wore out at 60 or 70 k. A trip though a junk yard would find Plymouth engines in Dodges, Dodge engines in Plymouths, car engines in trucks and truck engines in cars. I am not suggesting that a P12 should have a slant 6 or a late model 318 without a deduction, but a P12 with a later model flat head 6 is well within the relm of what may have traspired under the shade tree, in the garage, at Sears and Roebucks, or even at a dealership. Totally disallowing points for an engine that is basicaly the same design from 35 to 62 doesn't make much sense and doesn't ease the process of putting an Plymouth back on the road, and making it a road worthy car.

And speaking of road worthy, I drive my car (46 P15) to Plymouth events, Vermont, Charlotte, Detroit and now Mayrland. Our recent trip comprised 975 miles. As the statement of purpose the POC has this as a lead in sentence:

The purpose of the Club is to encourage the use, preservation and restoration of Plymouth and Fargo automobiles and trucks, 25 years of age or older, particularly the AUTHENTIC restoration of these models

Use first, preservation second and restoration third.

So lets honor the use by awarding points to Plymouth Automobiles (n self mobile) that appear at events under their own power. Create a Driveability Section of the judging process. Those that are still used as they were designed to be used, to transport people and their belongings from one place to another would garner points. Conversly those cars that have been relagated to moveable sculpture, those that do not see the outside more than from the garage to the trailer to the show field and back, would loose a few points owing to not being used as designed. One could even go so fars as to say if they haven't gone more than 10 miles since the last show they would get no points in this catagory.

Preservation would honor those that are drivers, maybe with some mismatched parts, or even some of the upgrades mentioned above, that allow the car to be kept on the road, representing the Plymouth brand, and not sneered at because their engine if from an incorrect series, or even other brand if it mopar.

And Authentic restorations would be those turned out under the letter of the judging sheet. But the way the sentence is written it should welcome any and all Plymouths and their owners that appear and meet the age requirement.

I believe these changes would open the club up to a more diverse audience while maintaning it quest for the authentic restoration as well.

So as this may be my last post for a while I will lurk and read comments, and hopefully or candidates will respond with their thoughts as well. but traffic here being what it is I shall not be suprised if there is little or no response.

http://plymouthbulletin.com/smf/index.php?topic=2284.msg11351

Edited September 30, 2009 by greg g

[grey beard]

Well said, Greg. Couldn't have done better myself! Good luck with your political campaign, too.

[cwcars88]

greg

I like your way of thinking. You are on the right track. I have 7 old cars. My first built is a 31 model A ( stock ). I used to go to all the reginal meets with-in 2 or 3 days drive ( not trailered ) I found them to be boring. All those perfect cars were just like the one setting next to it. I got into street rods and found lots of new ideas from other home built cars. I do like the cars to be powered by the same brand motor as the car, which is harder to build then putting a small block chev in everything.

I agree with you, if this hobby is going to grow it will be with the non purist and younger open minded people.

Wayne

[LAKOTA169]

Sounds good to me.

[randroid]

Greg,

That was a lucid, well thought and well written statement in which I could find no political bias. (I don't think GTK is on a witch hunt as much as he was angrier than I about responses to a thread I posted.)

Bill Marriott says that he doesn't want to hear about problems without hearing a solution to the problem. There has been much mention here about the problems within the POC but you are the first to offer solutions that would be free and easy to instill and could certainly effect favorably their membership and health. You should be congratulated, and I so do. Well done!

If the POC doesn't at least acknowledge your suggestions then perhaps they have become stuffy old prigs who would rather die than change. Euthanistically speaking, I would honor their last wishes, but it would be a crying shame to lose them to myopically parochial hubris.

-Randy

[RobertKB]

That sounds great. I am not a POC member (except for one year) and think this is the way the club must move if it hopes to attract new members and not turn them off. I agree hotrods would not be accepted but the bolt on mods you suggested I have absolutely no problem with. Although not a POC member, I am registered on their forum and will add to the debate in support of your ideas.

[desoto1939]

Greg:

i have read you post and agree with your thoughts and suggestions. I am not a POC member and do not have a Plymouth but have a 39 DeSoto, a sister car.

As some else mention that the current leadership in the POC does not want to hear issues but only wants to hear issues and suggestion is not a really good policy to lead a club. Some one that was in a mangement position stated that they do not want to have a group of Board members that alwasy agree witht he leader of the company because they company will never grow and or move forward.

The president of the POC should welcome the issues and then bring them up to the current board and to discuss the issues. The club is made up of its membership and just just the Board of Directors if it is then it has become a club that will die and die very quickly since no new blood will want to join and participate and provide any input.

Keep up your ideas. As you have noticed the AACA has also been changing and now they have a drivers class. They never had this but have listed to the members, but they are slow to change but at least they are changing.

If I had a plymouth I would be standing right alongside of you trying to push for change and in my aspect this is a positive change.

rich Hartung 1939 Desoto owner

[Norm's Coupe]

Good luck Greg. Dennis and I were invited not to post on the POC after simply supporting the use of radial tires and disc brakes a few years ago.

That said. If they were to make the changes you mentioned, I'd even consider rejoining the national, and the local club since my coupe does fit the guidelines you laid out.

At any rate, you might want to put a link to this thread for them to look at in that one on the POC forum. That way, people would not have to post on each board, and they could see the responses from both sides of the fence.

[greg g]

(I don't think GTK is on a witch hunt as much as he was angrier than I about responses to a thread I posted.)

to lose them to myopically parochial hubris.

-Randy

I was referring to being booted off the POC forum for bringing up a discussion I agreed not to when I registered.

I left Myopically parochial hubris because it is a concise discription of their malais.

Is there any way to work zenophobic in???? Or are zeophobic and myopic symonyms here?

http://plymouthbulletin.com/smf/index.php?topic=2284.msg11351

Edited September 30, 2009 by greg g

[boxer_inv]

Good ideas and suggestions Greg.

Being in OZ, I'm not involved in the whole POC gig, or the 'tailgaters' or anything like that, but of course I'm fully aware that there are many car clubs the world over who have some very staid and rigid leadership which prevents 'organic' changes that would see their membership base maintained...

After reading your post, I headed over to the POC page and here's what I was confronted with as I navigated towards the 'discussions' page. This is the Disclaimer page: (haven't gone further yet - stopped to post this!)

(Quote)

Please Note

This discussion board requires registration to post messages - see the first posting under General for more information on joining the discussion

"THE OFFICIAL POLICY OF THE PLYMOUTH OWNERS CLUB, INC. IS TO PROMOTE THE CORRECT AND AUTHENTIC RESTORATION OF THE PLYMOUTH BRAND AND TO DISCOURAGE ANY ACTIVITIES, IDEAS OR PHILOSOPHIES CONTRARY TO THESE AIMS." The views expressed and information exchanged on this website are not necessarily...

(End Quote).

So it seems the 'official policy' is different to the statement of purpose you have mentioned?...

( Just had a thought - and taking the extreme end of things... - if the POC mantra is only about 100% correct restoration, but nothing about driveability - whats to stop someone having 100% correct, lovingly cosmetically restored, but totally inoperable car? Like, a seized engine which has been painted up and is 'correct'. You only have to push it off a trailer, push it to a parking spot, get judged, winch it back onto trailer and away you go.... ) I'm probably way off the mark there, but you get my drift...there should be much more emphasis on driveability as you have said, Greg.

[TodFitch]

...snip...

( Just had a thought - and taking the extreme end of things... - if the POC mantra is only about 100% correct restoration, but nothing about driveability - whats to stop someone having 100% correct, lovingly cosmetically restored, but totally inoperable car? Like, a seized engine which has been painted up and is 'correct'. You only have to push it off a trailer, push it to a parking spot, get judged, winch it back onto trailer and away you go.... ) I'm probably way off the mark there, but you get my drift...there should be much more emphasis on driveability as you have said, Greg.

The AACA requires cars to be driven on to the show field. The reason is to assure that there is at least the possibility that the thing is really a car rather than a static piece of art. (They require motorcycles to be pushed because there were too many safety issues with unskilled riders having problems with archaic and seldom used equipment.)

What it comes down to is winning at a car show at a national level is incompatible with actually driving the car. If you try to put rules on about no trailering, etc., then there will be people who find a way to cheat (park the trailer just out of inspection distance). It is very hard for a club to cater to both casual showing/touring and formal points based judged shows.

Veering back toward, but not on to the original topic, the problem with the POC forum is that is so bloody slow that it is painful to visit. Shows what a difference having an admin who is a computer industry pro (GTK) and an admin who is not. Since it is slow and painful to visit it does not get a lot of traffic.

[Young Ed]

Actually I think the POC is one of the more friendly towards cars driven to the events. Judges are instructed to ignore small amounts of dirt incured on the way to the meet. My dads 51 took best of show in Peoria and we drove it there.

[Captain Neon]

I like Greg's ideas. I also think there may be more cost conscious ways to run a national meet. It seems there is too much emphasis on large metropolitan areas and expensive hotels. IMHO, smaller communities with less traffic may appeal to those not currently attending and driving their vintage Plymouths to the shows. Smaller communities may also offer places where the showfield can be acquired for less cost than has been the case recently. It wasn't that long ago that the POC had a national meet that was well-attended by the public when the display area was the town square and public park. There are also lots of former Wal*Mart locations with unused parking lots. I would think Wal*Mart or the current property owners would permit a car show on their unused parking lot for a song. The host hotel need not be the car show location. These cars arrived from their garages somehow.

[JohnS48plm]

Good ideas Greg. I've been in the POC since 1983 and normally just display my cars. I would rather drive them to the meets and enjoy the the people and the cars.

The last few meets I have been to have a lot of the same faces that go to the meets every year. Every year the people look older with few young members. The club needs to look at ways to attract new and younger people.

The meets are expensive and with fewer people at the meets I can see where the regions would have trouble breaking even.

Good luck trying to change the old guard at the POC.I'm all for modified cars in a separate class but I'm just one member.

JohnS

[RobertKB]

Greg, there is some action on the POC thread you started. First is mine but there are two others both of which are supportive. Maybe you started something?!

[Johnny S]

The 49plymouthclubcoupe one is mine.

[P15Mike]

Greg sounds good ! Let me first say that i'm not a member of the POC nor have i ever been . As a " Tailgater " who was just going to meet a couple friends at " parking lot " , at a hotel , i felt no ill will from anyone . I will say i didnt go out of my way to speak with anyone who wasn't in the "circle " anyway . I figured i was the outsider and didnt want to intrude or force my way in . I went to see some fine examples of cars and some good conversation with friends , both of which i accomplished . I will also add the gentleman with the tan 28 plymouth (POC memeber and very friendly) invited me to come sit in his car , which i did . So to me some were very hospitable from my point of view .

I don't belong to clubs for the very reasons Greg has described above , just too much drama for me . As Norm has already stated i also seem to fit in the " everyone get together at the drive in " theory . Maybe the POC , if for nothing else , should adopt a mild custom class ? Certainly that wouldnt hurt revenue especially in these economicly challenged times . I would love to be a memeber of a club if the stars would ever line up for something to fit my style . I do plan to restore my car back to 100% originality as it relates to my finances or preferences to my liking . The last thing i would want is someone to tell me the red on my hubcaps is too red , thats just not my thing .

So if the POC ever conforms to my liking ( or any club for that matter) , then and only then , i may allow my dog to join the fight !

Good luck Greg ! Sounds like you might need it .

Mike

[Don Coatney]

I have a couple of comments to make. First off is Greg should throw his hat in the ring for presidency of the POC. I have known Greg on and off line for several years and one thing I know is he thinks before he talks (unlike me who talks before and or thinks and talks at the same time) He could do several things while there one being to further groom Young Ed (in his quest at presidency and growing the association) and secondly make some needed changes. Notice I used the word association not club. Next thought is to develop a National Plymouth Association that holds National meets in areas where members can attend in trailored or driven cars. Split the attendies into those who want to be judged and those who dont. The ones who want to be judged should pay for the judging and trophies and those who do not want those services should not. Elect or select an officer to handle the Judging affairs and be responsible for the self funding of this portion of the event and elect or select an officer to handle the the ones who do not want to be judged and let them be responsible for funding this portion of the event. Let them all park in the same area so everyone can enjoy looking at the cars, making and meeting new and old friends. Book with a Hotel that will offer the same discount to both groups. Allow folks who drive in without pre regristration to participate for the appropriate fees (do not turn anybody away because they did not pre register) and have a fun party for all. Just my thoughts.

[greg g]

I would currently not qualify for the position (no you can't see my birth certificate) and having held various positions in the Local SCCA years past, my days of club officership are long over.

[Frank Elder]

I have a couple of comments to make. First off is Greg should throw his hat in the ring for presidency of the POC. I have known Greg on and off line for several years and one thing I know is he thinks before he talks (unlike me who talks before and or thinks and talks at the same time) He could do several things while there one being to further groom Young Ed (in his quest at presidency and growing the association) and secondly make some needed changes. Notice I used the word association not club. Next thought is to develop a National Plymouth Association that holds National meets in areas where members can attend in trailored or driven cars. Split the attendies into those who want to be judged and those who dont. The ones who want to be judged should pay for the judging and trophies and those who do not want those services should not. Elect or select an officer to handle the Judging affairs and be responsible for the self funding of this portion of the event and elect or select an officer to handle the the ones who do not want to be judged and let them be responsible for funding this portion of the event. Let them all park in the same area so everyone can enjoy looking at the cars, making and meeting new and old friends. Book with a Hotel that will offer the same discount to both groups. Allow folks who drive in without pre regristration to participate for the appropriate fees (do not turn anybody away because they did not pre register) and have a fun party for all. Just my thoughts.

Same thing different topic..the last bastion of naval superiority has been breached, they are going to allow countersunk sailors in the silent service, in other words old days die hard.

I personaly think that there is some shaking up in order, good luck Greg.

[Plymouthy Adams]

that will be very interesting for sure...

[1940plymouth]

A few minutes ago I checked the POC for Greg's posting, I noticed that there were 76 views, with only three respones. Seems like out of those number of views, there would have been some comments from the hierarchy of the POC.

I have am in the same mode of thinking as you guys, I have kept my 1940 Plymouth basically stock, other than radial tires and Jeep wheels, but she needs a repaint, and other items, but I basically kept her safe to drive. The old girl looks good at 50 ft or 50 mph, but I am very happy with it and that is what counts.

[Norm's Coupe]

Sounds to me that they don't want to talk about it. Probably feel if they don't respond, the thread will just die a slow death.

[greg g]

Norm there are two resposes one via email and one posted to the POC forum.

[nickply40]

Here is part of my response on the POC forum.

I would like to see a committee formed, staffed by members from diverse regions, to make recommendations to the National Board on how to handle this very topic. Addressing change in a positive way is the key to getting support from the members and the National Board.

The structure as it exist now for the restoration and preservation and judging of Plymouths, etc., maintains the tradition on which the club was founded. That is not to say that changes should not be welcome. We need to look ahead to the future and decide how to best serve all members, those that have "stock" vehicles and those that have "modifieds". They don't have to be inter-mixed as one. We can't sit back and do nothing or we will lose the interest of many members. We can't go on the premise that we have approximately 3000 members who primarily are members in name only and love receiving the Bulletin. We want to entice more current members and future members to actually be involved in the club by letting us know what works and what doesn't and their ideas and suggestions on improving it and will step up and help to implement changes as they are needed. Enough said for now.