Upper Starter Mounting Bolt…Whew man.

[Merle Coggins]

On 5/28/2024 at 2:21 PM, Sniper said:

Any reason you couldn't use a stud there? 

 

You probably could, as long at the length was correct. However, it wouldn't help the wrench access issue. 

[Merle Coggins]

On 5/29/2024 at 9:04 AM, Sam Buchanan said:

 

The cheaper option might be a custom wrench made from a cheapie wrench with the assistance of an acetylene torch??

 

I've made a few 'custom' wrenches for special needs over the years. Some are still floating around in my tool boxes somewhere. 

[Sniper]

2 hours ago, Merle Coggins said:

You probably could, as long at the length was correct. However, it wouldn't help the wrench access issue. 

 

Yes, but you could spin the nut on with a finger till it got close then use the wrench.  Not to mention the stud will hold the starter up,

[Los_Control]

2 hours ago, Merle Coggins said:

I've made a few 'custom' wrenches for special needs over the years. Some are still floating around in my tool boxes somewhere. 

Last custom tool I made was to remove the plug on the rear end. When I needed it a 2nd time I could not find it ... I looked everywhere and ended up making a new one.

This time I thought I was going to be smart .... I'm going to put this wrench in the right hand corner of this drawer so I can find it next time.

 

In my best Gomer Pile voice SURPRISE SURPRISE! I found the first one I made sitting there.

[JBNeal]

The last time I replaced a bolt with a stud, I put flat spots on the threads to limit how deep the stud would go into the non-blind mounting hole...in this case, the flat spots can be as wide as the starter mounting flange.  After a near problem on an aluminum casting on a NH TD80D, I used a cutting wheel to cut a groove so I could see if the studs were turning during final nut torque, and in some instances, used a screwdriver to hold the stud in place.

[Merle Coggins]

On 5/30/2024 at 2:27 PM, Los_Control said:

Last custom tool I made was to remove the plug on the rear end. When I needed it a 2nd time I could not find it ... I looked everywhere and ended up making a new one.

This time I thought I was going to be smart .... I'm going to put this wrench in the right hand corner of this drawer so I can find it next time.

 

In my best Gomer Pile voice SURPRISE SURPRISE! I found the first one I made sitting there.

🤣🤣 I’ve done that too. “ Cant fnd someting I know I have… Finally give up and buy a new one… Come up with the “Perfect” place to store the new one so I can find it again and find the original in that exact spot. Glad to know it’s not just me…😎

[Hickory]

I think the key is the foot pedal starter. I struggled a little on my 49 Chrysler but the starter on my 29 is three times harder. I made a special tool for it and will snap a picture after work today 

[desoto1939]

Here is a suggestion that might make it easier to get the unit back in the car. On the lower outside home insert a threaded rod that is just long enough to catach some thread and then protrude out the flange end of the starter motor.  Now you will have something to hold up the unit and then you can at lest roate the motor so that you can then get the inner bolt started to hold the unit in place. Brin the inner bolt up snug then remove the lower supporting rod and then run that bolt in by hand and then get it snug.  Then tighten up the entire unit. Sort of like alignment rods when putting the clutch and tans back in your car.

 

Just a thought.

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[keithb7]

3 hours ago, desoto1939 said:

Here is a suggestion that might make it easier to get the unit back in the car. On the lower outside home insert a threaded rod that is just long enough to catach some thread and then protrude out the flange end of the starter motor.  Now you will have something to hold up the unit and then you can at lest roate the motor so that you can then get the inner bolt started to hold the unit in place. Brin the inner bolt up snug then remove the lower supporting rod and then run that bolt in by hand and then get it snug.  Then tighten up the entire unit. Sort of like alignment rods when putting the clutch and tans back in your car.

 

Just a thought.

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

With my car, getting the lower outer starter bolt in and out is a breeze. Yes it holds the starter in position. That’s not an issue.  It’s the upper inner starter bolt that takes years off your life. Looking at it again recently I am not convinced a half moon wrench will make it that much easier either.  The problem seems to be compounded by the foot starter linkage. Even though the horizontal push rod assy is easily removed, the vertical steel supports are right in the way. Add to that the wrench has to travel down behind the cylinder head. Between the cylinder head and firewall,  there is not enough room for my hands to fit. It can be done. I’ve proven that to myself 4x or so. It’s just quite a struggle. 

Edited June 3 by keithb7

[desoto1939]

1 hour ago, keithb7 said:

With my car, getting the lower outer starter bolt in and out is a breeze. Yes it holds the starter in position. That’s not an issue.  It’s the upper inner starter bolt that takes years off your life. Looking at it again recently I am not convinced a half moon wrench will make it that much easier either.  The problem seems to be compounded by the foot starter linkage. Even though the vertical push rod assy is easily removed, the vertical steel supports are right in the way. Add to that the wrench has to travel down behind the cylinder head. Between the cylinder head and firewall,  there is not enough room for my hands to fit. It can be done. I’ve proven that to myself 4x or so. It’s just quite a struggle. 

Keith: I also agree with the tight fit and limited amt of room to rotate the obstruction wrench. If the bolt head is 1/2 inch then the possibility of using a ratcheting radiator fan blade tool might work just another thought on this topic.

 

Rich Hartung

[Sniper]

Anyone consider a reduced head flange bolt? 

[Los_Control]

7 hours ago, Hickory said:

I think the key is the foot pedal starter. I struggled a little on my 49 Chrysler but the starter on my 29 is three times harder. I made a special tool for it and will snap a picture after work today 

I just think there may be a lot of truth here on the stomp starters Like @keithb7 has.

 

My truck has same. Looking at my photo even though it is the wrong side ..... we can see there is no restrictions to get to it.

 

 

With the 1/2 moon wrench I found I can actually remove the top bolt 1/8"-1/4" at a time ..... just not worth the effort if the starter is working fine as is.

So at this stage I did purchase the wrench, I attempted it to test the wrench .... seriously not worth my time if the starter works fine.

 

Possibly cars without a stomp starter and no linkage in the way .... they do come off easier .... us old people that stomp our feet ..... mot a pretty sight.

 

[Hickory]

Have to use wrench like a screwdriver once you break it loose.

[DonaldSmith]

Last year I removed the starter on my 47 DeSoto, to replumb the oil filter lines. 

 

No way of getting a typical wrench on the upper bolt. 

I couldn't use a standard socket because the end of the starter is narrower than the body, interfering with a socket extension.  

An open-end crowsfoot would not stay on the bolt.  

So I ordered a crowsfoot from Grainger with a 12-point box end.  A bit-ch, but it worked. 

 

I also supported the starter with a rope sling.  We old folks need all the help we can devise.  

 

[kencombs]

15 hours ago, Sniper said:

Anyone consider a reduced head flange bolt? 

I poster earlier about those.   I even have a few laying around.   Came from the hydraulic motor mounting on an old Case garden tractor.   They are 1/2x13 thread with a 1/2" 12pt head.   I'm pretty sure they are near the correct length, but can be easily shortened.   Should be available in lots of lengths from specialty sources. 

 

Just looked, McMaster.com has them.

[Plymouthy Adams]

come on folks, this is what builds character, some rise to the challenge and others fall to the wayside....you need a challenge once in a while just so not to become totally complacent.  Sorry honey, you will have to take out the trash, after this excellent sandwich you made me, I have to get back to the starter bolt that is kicking my butt.  

[Bingster]

DonaldSmitH. Ah, just the man I wanted to show a photo like that.  This is off topic. I have a '47 Desoto and have the same set-up as you from the looks of your photo.  I've taken my starter out twice for people who said they could fix it but didn't. I finally had to take it to a shop in Des Moines who made it work. Bench tested it. 

 

I really think I hurt my back last time and so I asked a farmer friend drop it down for me.  All I have to do is install the bolts.

 

I am curious about your oil lines and wiring. That blue wire must be the starter button? The upper left yellow to the generator? Big black one to the battery. Lower left to the starter frame. Where does the red wire coming out of the flex tube go? There's a yellow wire going past the flex tube that disappears. There's a thin black wire going to the lower left starter ground terminal.

 

I'd like to see a photo of the oil lines. I'm assuming you have an oil filter on there?  That square brass fitting for the one line is like I have, only mine is a double for two lines.  I think I have them all plumbed right but I always like to see where the lines come from and where they go. I'm just about to re-connect them after I bolt the starter in.

 

 

[DonaldSmith]

Solenoid wiring- (somewhat revised)

Lower Right -  Heavy Black, from (-) post of battery; Red, to instrument panel (ammeter?) (Green? to horn relay? moved to (-) post of battery)  

Upper Right - Yellow - from starter button

Upper Left - Yellow to ground (was brown to generator  "A"; alternator installed instead of generator)

Lower Left: - Copper bus to starter internal; Black (Yellow?) wire to automatic choke. 

 

Oil filter piping - absolute bitch.   Kept leaking. Latest iteration:

Next to the starter, angle fitting at block, tapered pipe thread, hard to tighten just right.  No room below the solenoid for anything other than an angle fitting.  Use lot of thread sealer.

Other fittings, requiting injenuity to use available lengths of brake tubing.  Remember, tapered pipe thread at block, threaded compression fitting at tubing.  

 

[JBNeal]

4 hours ago, DonaldSmith said:

...

Not being critical of your installation, but I don't reckon that hardline pigtail is required when hooking up to a rubber hose.  On truck engines, I have seen oil filter pressure from the oil gallery elbow as shown, and another oil pressure gallery elbow to the left of the distributor, behind the oil filler tube, as the psi source for the oil psi gauge.  This hardline angles to the right of the coil bracket, held in place with a simple metal tab that can be fabricated easily.

[DonaldSmith]

I thought there must be an easier way to rig the oil filter, to keep away from the starter.  As the man once said, "Live and let learn ."

Paraphrasing someone on the Forum, "My work is an example of what not to do."   

[Bingster]

I've yet to see two oil line set-ups the same.

[DonaldSmith]

Were oil filters always optional?  Were any factory-installed, or always installed by a dealer or shade-tree mechanic?  Printed installation instructions available, or devise your own piping scheme.  Whatever works.  Did the block come with a tapped hole on that strange outcropping so close to the starter and solenoid?  Maybe saved a few inches of piping. 

 

(This seems off-topic, except if we remove the starter to access the oil lines.  1. Simply remove starter.  2.  Simply install oil lines and filter.  3.  Simply reinstall starter.) 

[Bingster]

The manual makes it sound very easy: "It will clear the oil lines." Paraphrased.

[JBNeal]

this may or may not help...the #4 bearing oil passage used for the oil psi gauge shown is a problem in practice as the starter might interfere with the elbow in that port.  The truck flathead oil psi gauge is tapped into #2 bearing oil passage.  The filter shown is the now obsolete and practically extinct disposable canister; some aftermarket replaceable element type housings are plumbed similar, some are plumbed with pressure feeding the canister from the bottom.

 

[Bingster]

Thanks. I just got my starter bolted in and it wasn't too bad after a farmer neighbor set the starter down into position. Even the top holes lined up. Actually the bottom bolt has less clearance IMO than the top. Anyway, it's been a long time coming after having it repaired, and now I'll see if Carlo starts.