Don't be me...

[SuperGas61]

Ah, where to begin...

 

Yesterday started out quietly enough. Got my 3-point retractable seat belts from Wesco the other day, so I started laying everything out so I could see where I'd have to drill anchor holes, etc. Then I changed the oil, and while the car was up on the jackstands, I took the opportunity to take the front left wheel off, so I could measure the back of the wheel for fitment with the Andy Bernbaum disc-brake conversion kit, which I'm thinking about getting.

 

Now, before I go any further, it would probably be helpful to go back about a half an hour. My original plan for the oil change was to put the car up on Rhino Ramps, which I use all the time and have never had any problems with...in fact, my Ram 1500 was up on them earlier in the week. This time, just as I got the wheels up on top of the ramps, I felt the left ramp sort of collapse, and I got out to find the right front wheel correctly up on the right ramp but the left front wheel almost back down on the ground, with the ramp crunched behind it, between the tire and the door. I guess I figured I had overdriven the left ramp, although I wasn't sure how that was possible if the right wheel was up on its ramp properly. But yeah, I guess it could happen. In any case, I was able to get a jack under the car at that spot and lift it off the ramp so I could pull it out, at which point I just jacked the car up by the front crossmember, put in jackstands, and changed the oil without incident. Then I took the left front wheel off, measured the back of the rim and took some photos, put the wheel back on, finger-tightened the lug bolts, lowered the car, talked to my neighbor for about 10 minutes, and then headed out for a short drive to christen the new oil.

This was strictly local driving--30 mph in most places. The car was fine for about a half mile or so, but at one point I missed a turn that I had wanted to make and decided to stop a little farther ahead and make a U-turn to go back. As I came out of the U-turn, I thought I felt or heard something odd in the left front area, but the car was still driving normally, so I just kept going. And then, not more than a couple of hundred feet later, it all just came apart. I felt the left front go down, then heard a sound like rocks crunching, and then watched as the left front wheel very smoothly separated from the car, rolled right along with me for a second or two, not more than three feet away, and then shot forward like a rocket, bouncing up the road at 35 mph but thankfully not hitting anyone or anything, and then ending up in a bush a couple of hundred yards ahead.

 

It was at that moment, of course, that I remembered that I had only finger-tightened the lug bolts... ???

 

I managed to stop the car and pull over to the right side of the road pretty quickly, and then I jumped out to take a look at what I knew was going to be a real day-ruiner... ? And yeah, it definitely didn't look good--a car on the side of the road that's down to the brake drum on one corner just looks broken. But other than that, nothing actually seemed broken--nothing was leaking, nothing was smoking, nothing looked particularly twisted out of shape. The only thing I could see that showed any signs that something had happened was the front edge of the drum, which looked scored all the way around, probably from cutting through the pavement. And amazingly enough, four of the five lug bolts were sitting in the middle of the road not more than 100 feet away.

A bunch of people stopped, and I finally hitched a ride back to my house to get the truck and the jacks. I say "jacks" plural because it was both my regular 3-ton jack and the small one that I keep with the Concord...which I had left back at the driveway, after I had used it to help get the collapsed Rhino Ramp out. In any case, I got them, came back, managed to get the front end up in the air, and eventually managed to get the wheel back on with the four bolts, although I had to stop every time a car passed, which was often. But after I lowered the jack and put everything away in the truck, I was amazingly able to just drive the car back to the house with no problems--they definitely don't make 'em like this anymore! And after I dropped it off and walked back and got the truck, I drove back to where I had made that U-turn, and sure enough, there was the fifth lug bolt, right in the middle of the road, standing on end. ?

 

Unfortunately, when I got back home, I realized that I actually hadn't escaped unscathed. There are now two pretty large, shallow dents in the front left fender (one of which I can push in and out very easily, although it won't stay), along with a small amount of creasing and a tiny bit of paint loss. The fender is also sort of bowed in at the bottom, behind the tire, obviously from when the car dropped to the pavement. The Concord emblem has also come unscrewed on one end, but all of this is actually camouflaged pretty well by the car's dark blue color. (See attached photos.) Nevertheless, I'm pretty sick about the whole thing, because this is (was) a really straight car. (It's also interesting that in my rush to get the wheel back on in passing traffic, I didn't notice the fender damage, even though it was literally a foot in front of my face.)

 

So I definitely want to try to get the fender fixed, and if anyone has any thoughts on the best way to get that done, feel free to chime in--I've never had any old car body work done. How hard is it to take one of these fenders off? Can I do it? It seems like it would be a lot easier to just get the fender itself repaired, rather than involving the whole car (which is in Maine, along with me, but I'm only there for another month, so time could be an issue). Or would it be easier to just look for an intact donor fender and get that painted? Also, how does winter storage (indoors but not heated) affect unrepaired metal? I'm thinking that rust could be a problem, especially on edges and creases.

 

In any case, thanks for listening to my tale of woe. Believe me, no one knows more than I do what a dumb mistake this was. I'm trying not to beat myself up over it (although I'm not doing a very good job of it at the moment), but I do know that I was very lucky, in more ways than one. Definitely not something I want to do again... ?

[Dave72dt]

Depends on access to the back side of the damage.  If it's open, I'd do it on the car, on a hoist where I could walk up to it.  The fender is locked in place if still on the car.  Off the car, you have to deal with it moving around while working the damage out but it takes up less space.  Unless the paint is 100% spot on. a blend will be required and you need the adjoining panels for that.

 

Good replacement fenders are not as readily available as they once were.  Yes, you can take the fender off yourself.  Fender can be repaired on or off the car.  There may be damage to the fenderwell also.  The trim is going to be the tough part, getting it to lay back down without kinking it.  If it can't be done now and has to over winter,  sand down any flaking paint on those sharp exposed edges and rattle can some paint on them.

 

Since you asked if you could take the fender off yourself and other questions, I assume you'll need a body shop for the repairs.  Let them make the decision of off the car or on or replacing it.

[Dan Hiebert]

The metal on these cars is much easier to work than newer cars.  As Dave72dt noted, it just may be possible to straighten that out while still on the car - it would be on a D24, but I don't know how the inner fender on the '51 Plymouths is situated.  BUT, the fenders are relatively easy to remove.  While it may be feasible to leave it on, I believe you'd get the best results taking it off.  That way if you decide not to tackle it, it'd be an easy transfer to a body shop.  You'll have a devil of a time finding a good replacement here in Maine.  Indoor unheated storage won't affect where the chipped paint is too much, just don't wait too long to remedy any bare metal.

 

And just in case it makes you feel better...guess what I forgot to do that led up to this...  I, too, had to chase my wheel for a surprising distance.

[JerseyHarold]

Sorry to hear of your incident.  Ask at local dealerships to see if they know of any paintless dent removal services nearby.  Those techs are more oriented towards metalworking without resorting to lots of bondo.  A body shop could then tint or blend paint to finish off the repair.

[Ivan_B]

11 hours ago, SuperGas61 said:

finger-tightened the lug bolts

Oh no... Get a large torque wrench (if you do not have one) and make it a habit to always go over all the wheel bolts/nuts, twice, as soon as you lower the car to the ground after service.

Glad to hear that no one got hurt, though. So, instead of being upset about the whole thing, let's concentrate on this. It's a good ending, after all. My dumbest accident, thus far, was driving into a motorcycle engine, while parking into a tight garage. I was too lazy to move it completely out of the way and it dent-scratched the fender and the door. ?

 

As for the fender repair, if this one is original to the car and you want to keep it, I would investigate with the paint-less dent repair people first. They can hammer out some pretty bad dents. It will take them the whole day, and you will have to pay for it, but the results could be amazing, assuming that the metal did not get stretched, etc. After the dent is gone, you can use just a tiny bit of body filler to compensate for the lost paint, and re-paint it as usual.

[SuperGas61]

Hey, thanks for everyone's replies...I do feel better! Especially after seeing Dan's VW... ? I think the paint-less dent repair approach is a good one, and I have a call into one up here. I also purchased some touch-up paint in the original New Brunswick blue, so if I can get the dents out, I can at least cover any scratches with something resembling the original. I'll keep everyone posted. In any case, thanks once again for everyone's support...it definitely helps turn this self-inflicted nightmare into just another car-building obstacle... ??

[soth122003]

These type of incidents are what we call self-correcting errors. But think what you elders would say, "It builds character".

 

Joe Lee

[Eneto-55]

My Dad taught us to tighten the lug bolts as much as possible before setting the tire back down on the ground.  I have only had one experience where a wheel almost departed - but it was after a tire shop had mounted new tires.  But I have made similar errors in other contexts.  I build computer systems, and apparently I once shipped one off w/o tightening the motherboard screws.  If one of those had come out completely, and ended up on top of the motherboard, it would have been sparks and a shot MB.  I TRY to do it like the airplane pilot-mechanics we had in the mission (in Brazil) - count the screws as you start them for alignment, and count them again as you tighten them.  AND don't let anything or anyone interrupt you in the middle of that.  Use a checklist if necessary.  (I have to more and more, because my memory is faltering.)

But with the wheels, by doing it in two stages I have two opportunities to catch it before it goes off on its own, down the highway.  (Dad's deal was that the wheel would seat or center itself by tightening them as much as possible before any weight was on them.)

[Ivan_B]

Actually, not necessarily a good idea to tighten literally "as much as possible". You just need it to have a snug fit, before lowering the car. I do use the tire iron to do that, instead of bare fingers, but never really tighten it much as possible because if the car is on jack (no stands) it is not safe to attempt tightening the wheel in the air. For centering the wheel - correct point, but not the best approach. Also, if the wheel is hub-centric (like most cars are) does not matter much at all. if the wheel is centered by the bolts/nuts, slightly tight is good enough. Once you put the weight of the car on it, it is not fixed in place, it will move to accommodate correct position once you properly tighten the wheel.

[Eneto-55]

I guess "as much as possible" is not a very accurate description.  (Obviously.)  Anyway, the lugs always require additional tightening after the tire is back on the ground, and although I just assumed it was understood, I do of course do the normal crisscross pattern, a bit at a time - not just going around the wheel, and nor do I tighten one "all the way" before the others.  (Also do the same in the first stage, when just finger tightening.)

[Plymouthy Adams]

15 hours ago, JerseyHarold said:

Sorry to hear of your incident.  Ask at local dealerships to see if they know of any paintless dent removal services nearby.  Those techs are more oriented towards metalworking without resorting to lots of bondo.  A body shop could then tint or blend paint to finish off the repair.

the paintless guys would walk away and hopefully not laugh aloud till out of ear shot.  While they are a marvel to what they can do, they cannot work a kink or severed crease.  The panel can be worked on the car...the molding also does not appear creased or kinked...on curved a result of following the metal but not getting struck by another object, the one end that popped the light pressed steel retainer saved you bacon would be my reading the crime scene

[Ivan_B]

Well, maybe. I would still go to a few places anyway to see what they say. I've seen some videos with pretty bad creases being carefully shaped back into place. Although, it is true, they usually work on smaller dents, I think. However, we are not looking for a complete repair here, just the best possible metal restoration, to have it re-painetd with minimal amount of filler.

 

For example, here is a first video Google gave me for paitnless big dent repair. I guess most people will not attempt something like that, but this guy did...

 

Edited August 7, 2023 by Ivan_B

[SuperGas61]

3 hours ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

the paintless guys would walk away and hopefully not laugh aloud till out of ear shot.  While they are a marvel to what they can do, they cannot work a kink or severed crease.  The panel can be worked on the car...the molding also does not appear creased or kinked...on curved a result of following the metal but not getting struck by another object, the one end that popped the light pressed steel retainer saved you bacon would be my reading the crime scene

That's probably why the paintless guy I called hasn't gotten back to me... ??  The creases don't actually seem to be too severe, but I guess time will tell...I'm just really glad and impressed that the damage appears to be limited to the fender. I can't imagine that at least some of these dents won't come out one way or the other, but I'll be keeping my eye out for a replacement fender, which of course appear to be rarer than hen's teeth...there's actually a RH front fender available online right now, but no lefties...

[Sniper]

Modern sheet metal is a lot thinner, easier to pop things out. 

[soth122003]

Usually with these old cars the panel is removed and the sheet metal is hammered out with rubber mallets for the dents and metal hammers along the creases. It is mostly a lost art to fix them with out using a ton of Bondo filler.

 

Joe Lee

[Eneto-55]

On 8/8/2023 at 4:06 AM, soth122003 said:

Usually with these old cars the panel is removed and the sheet metal is hammered out with rubber mallets for the dents and metal hammers along the creases. It is mostly a lost art to fix them with out using a ton of Bondo filler.

 

Joe Lee

The main place where I see this art still practiced is in the rat rod realm, where bare steel is just clear coated or oiled, to completely avoid any question as to whether there is ANY bondo in the entire body surface of the vehicle.  (Of course the "rust is cool" crowd don't bother, but that's not the part of rat rodding I'm talking about.)

Edited August 19, 2023 by Eneto-55

[Dansk]

On 8/6/2023 at 10:12 PM, JerseyHarold said:

Sorry to hear of your incident.  Ask at local dealerships to see if they know of any paintless dent removal services nearby.  Those techs are more oriented towards metalworking without resorting to lots of bondo.  A body shop could then tint or blend paint to finish off the repair.

Most paintless dent places will not work on older cars, the metal is too thick for their techniques. At least that is what I was told at me local place.

[westaus29]

I have a couple of probably irrelevant comments.

Firstly, your Rhino Ramp problem. That was caused by the right ramp sliding forward as you drove onto them, while the left stayed put. The left wheel went up and over. I have had that almost happen to me, heard the screech of the sliding ramp and stopped in time.

Second, the wheel nuts. Many years ago my daughter rang up saying "dad the front left wheel is making funny noises". I was busy so told her to bring it home so I could check. She drove 80 km home, arrived saying " over 100 km/h the noise stops". Checked front left wheel, only one nut remaining, holes in rim badly chewed. A lesson for us both!

[SuperGas61]

On 8/13/2023 at 8:21 PM, westaus29 said:

I have a couple of probably irrelevant comments.

Firstly, your Rhino Ramp problem. That was caused by the right ramp sliding forward as you drove onto them, while the left stayed put. The left wheel went up and over. I have had that almost happen to me, heard the screech of the sliding ramp and stopped in time.

Second, the wheel nuts. Many years ago my daughter rang up saying "dad the front left wheel is making funny noises". I was busy so told her to bring it home so I could check. She drove 80 km home, arrived saying " over 100 km/h the noise stops". Checked front left wheel, only one nut remaining, holes in rim badly chewed. A lesson for us both!

Oh, man...that's scary...and yes, this has definitely been a lesson for me...but that's interesting about the Rhino Ramps, and I'm sure you're right--that's exactly what must have happened...crazily enough, that left Rhino Ramp was crumpled behind the left tire, but it actually worked itself back into its normal shape pretty quickly once I got it out...I'm still going to trash it, though...

[SuperGas61]

On 8/13/2023 at 12:49 PM, Dansk said:

Most paintless dent places will not work on older cars, the metal is too thick for their techniques. At least that is what I was told at me local place.

Yeah, I'm sure that's true...the paintless guy around here did finally get back to me, but I had already taken it over to a local body shop that came very highly recommended...the guy there said he thought he could get the fender back in shape in about a week, but I haven't gotten an estimate, and the car might actually have to go into storage before that happens..if that's the case, it'll happen in the spring...

[Plymouthy Adams]

I look at these in the same light cousin Eddie viewed the plate in his head....not so sure he want to put much trust in a piece of government plastic....

 

While the rating for these I am sure are spot on....that is OPTIMUN conditions....little off in either direction could seriously weaken the overall effectiveness of the design.  Good you chunking this....to prevent some guy from grabbing them for use from your trash, suggest they be cut in half if possible.  The structure on the one has been fractured for sure.  

[Ivan_B]

Resurrecting this old topic, momentarily

I've been watching some PDR videos, educating myself about the different techniques, etc., and thinking about buying a couple of tools and taking a stab at my own dents. Just noticed this video, where they fix a large door dent on a 1951 car. This is not a very difficult dent, but still, there were 3 sharp creases etc, and it came right out (after a few hours of massaging the metal, that is). It looks like the technique is definitely usable on old cars as well.

 

Looking back at the SuperGas61 's dents, it look like a job for some heat, glue puller, and manual pushing. You can even try some of these yourself. Look at this guy, for example:

 

You will not be able to make it go away, as if it wasn't there, with just the glue, but check how much better it looks after just a few pulls...

Edited February 2 by Ivan_B

[SuperGas61]

On 2/2/2024 at 12:23 AM, Ivan_B said:

Resurrecting this old topic, momentarily

I've been watching some PDR videos, educating myself about the different techniques, etc., and thinking about buying a couple of tools and taking a stab at my own dents. Just noticed this video, where they fix a large door dent on a 1951 car. This is not a very difficult dent, but still, there were 3 sharp creases etc, and it came right out (after a few hours of massaging the metal, that is). It looks like the technique is definitely usable on old cars as well.

 

Looking back at the SuperGas61 's dents, it look like a job for some heat, glue puller, and manual pushing. You can even try some of these yourself. Look at this guy, for example:

 

You will not be able to make it go away, as if it wasn't there, with just the glue, but check how much better it looks after just a few pulls...

Hey, Ivan...just saw your post...thanks for this! The videos are definitely interesting, and I may just give it a shot before bringing it to the body doctor...I'll keep the board posted...thanks again!

[Ivan_B]

Before DIY'ing, I would take it (send pics) to a few PDR places around town to see a) if anyone will do it, and b) how much they would charge

[desoto1939]

I had taken the tires and rims off my 39 Desoto to do some checking under the car. I also have the lug bolts and are all right hand treaded. Did my checkout put the rims and tires back on the car used the t-wrench to tighten the bolts and both rear wheels.

 

Thought they were on tight enough took the car for a ride around the block and then heard the wheel noise. stop the car in my neighborhood saw the bolts were loose. walked home got my t-wrench and tighten them up.

 

So we all have had some issues with not tightening the lug bolts.  So now when I put the car back on the ground I retighten all the bolts for all the wheels that had been removed.  Lesson learned once but never twice for this issue again.

 

Rich Hartung

desoto1939@aol.com