Grinding Gears or Clashing

[Guest]

With the 49 Chrysler Windsor Idling and I am sitting behind the wheel , I push the clutch to the floor and pull the shifter to me and down I get one heck of a clash and after reading the repair manual I cannot find any where as to how to adjust the shifting mechanism 

[busycoupe]

First gear is not synchronized. You could try holding the clutch down a few seconds to allow the gears to stop, then try to put it into first. If this does not work then I suggest that you check the free play on the clutch pedal.  The clutch may not be disengaging fully.

[kencombs]

Probably not a shift linkage issue.  Rather, the clutch is not releasing fully, engine idling to high, you're not waiting long enough to let the gears stop turning or a host of other things.  a little more info would help. 

 

If the car has been sitting/not run for a while that can cause a stuck clutch.

 

Lack of adequate free play can cause the clutch not to release fully.

 

A high idle will spin the gears faster and you would need to wait a few seconds after pushing the clutch in for them to stop..

 

I've seen transmissions filled with chassis grease to stop leaks.  also spins the gears when it shouldn't.

 

Is this when shifting into low or reverse only, or all gears.

 

I'd check the pedal free play first.  Also, try putting it in high before trying low or reverse.

 

 

[kencombs]

Please check the free play and report back.  

 

If I understand your post correctly, what you turned when installing the trans, was actually the flywheel.  So the clutch was not moving independent of the engine. 

 

With this new background info, there is another suspect.  If the PO had the clutch out, it may be installed backwards and the hub springs hitting the flywheel bolts.

[Don Coatney]

Try this. Instead of shifting into first gear shift into second gear first then shift into first gear. Second gear is synchronized and will stop the main shaft inside the transmission from rotating and allow you to shift into first gear with no grinding. 

[TodFitch]

3 minutes ago, Don Coatney said:

Try this. Instead of shifting into first gear shift into second gear first then shift into first gear. Second gear is synchronized and will stop the main shaft inside the transmission from rotating and allow you to shift into first gear with no grinding. 

 

When did having synchronizers on first gear become standard? Certainly some time after the '63 Plymouth I learned to drive on was built. . .

 

In any case, it was pretty common to either wait a while between when you stepped on the clutch to try to engage 1st. Or so as Don suggests, move the gear lever to one of the synchronized speeds (2nd or high) to stop things spinning in the transmission then move the lever to first. So second nature to me that I forget that people born/raised/learned to drive in a more recent era wouldn't know to do that.

[Plymouthy Adams]

2 hours ago, TodFitch said:

 

When did having synchronizers on first gear become standard? Certainly some time after the '63 Plymouth I learned to drive on was built. . .

 

not sure when it became an industry standard but was developed by Porsche and introduced in 1952...

[knuckleharley]

4 hours ago, Don Coatney said:

Try this. Instead of shifting into first gear shift into second gear first then shift into first gear. Second gear is synchronized and will stop the main shaft inside the transmission from rotating and allow you to shift into first gear with no grinding. 

BINGO! I can't remember a car I owned or drove as a kid that I didn't have to do this.

[Plymouthy Adams]

my 1948 Plymouth business coupe even has synchromesh reverse......

[Worden18]

9 hours ago, Don Coatney said:

Try this. Instead of shifting into first gear shift into second gear first then shift into first gear. Second gear is synchronized and will stop the main shaft inside the transmission from rotating and allow you to shift into first gear with no grinding. 

This is exactly what I do with my car as well.  

[Merle Coggins]

The AW32 oil should go into the Fluid Drive, not the transmission. 

[DonaldSmith]

My 47 DeSoto (Tiptoe Shift semi-automatic) has a tag on the transmission that says to fill with 10 wt oil.  The usual transmission oil would be too thick for the upshift plumbing.  (And the fluid coupling gets the AW32.) 

[kencombs]

36 minutes ago, wisconsinjimmy said:

This is hard to understand, the book calls for 10W oil and what I drained out of the tranny was some kind of oil now the hydraulic oil I put in is classified as 10W. What I do not understand is how the tranny shifts Is there a pump in the transmission ?  Also the torque converter or fluid coupling how does that work as I saw no fluid leakage when I took the tranny out, Does the converter expand so it engages the clutch?

   

Here is the most concise explanation I've found, copied from Wiki:

Operation

Attached to the transmission was an “underdrive” with a reduction gear of 1.75/1. The shift lever was column-mounted and had three positions: Low (in the “2nd” position of a conventional 3-speed manual unit), High (in the “3rd” position), and Reverse (same as the 3-speed). The clutch had to be depressed every time the gear shift lever was moved. When the lever was put in Low, the car started in “underdrive” low; when the vehicle reached a minimum speed of 6 mph (9.7 km/h), the driver lifted his foot off the accelerator, the underdrive unit would kick out and the car would be in Low. Similarly, with the lever in High position, the car would start in underdrive high, and at any speed above 13 mph (21 km/h), the driver would lift his foot and the car would “shift” into direct drive.

This configuration had the effect of providing 4 gear ratios:

• Underdrive Low, 3.57/1,
• Low 2.04/1,
• Underdrive High, 1.75/1,
• High, 1/1.

In order for the unit to work without gear clashing, it contained a freewheeling device (in Underdrive, Low and High), and the Owner’s manual cautioned drivers not to use “1st or 3rd” gear when descending hills, because there was no engine compression braking in those free-wheeling ranges. Generally, most drivers started an M6 car in High and accomplished the shift to direct drive somewhere between 13 and 25 MPH by releasing the accelerator pedal and waiting for the “clunk” that signaled the disengagement of the underdrive. An M6 car would automatically shift from High down to underdrive high when car speed dropped below approximately 11 MPH.

[greg g]

What transmission is your car equipped with.  Please don't answer fluid drive.  That is not the transmission.  Do you have a manual three speed or the semi automatic?

[knuckleharley]

54 minutes ago, kencombs said:

Here is the most concise explanation I've found, copied from Wiki:

Operation

Attached to the transmission was an “underdrive” with a reduction gear of 1.75/1. The shift lever was column-mounted and had three positions: Low (in the “2nd” position of a conventional 3-speed manual unit), High (in the “3rd” position), and Reverse (same as the 3-speed). The clutch had to be depressed every time the gear shift lever was moved. When the lever was put in Low, the car started in “underdrive” low; when the vehicle reached a minimum speed of 6 mph (9.7 km/h), the driver lifted his foot off the accelerator, the underdrive unit would kick out and the car would be in Low. Similarly, with the lever in High position, the car would start in underdrive high, and at any speed above 13 mph (21 km/h), the driver would lift his foot and the car would “shift” into direct drive.

This configuration had the effect of providing 4 gear ratios:

• Underdrive Low, 3.57/1,
• Low 2.04/1,
• Underdrive High, 1.75/1,
• High, 1/1.

In order for the unit to work without gear clashing, it contained a freewheeling device (in Underdrive, Low and High), and the Owner’s manual cautioned drivers not to use “1st or 3rd” gear when descending hills, because there was no engine compression braking in those free-wheeling ranges. Generally, most drivers started an M6 car in High and accomplished the shift to direct drive somewhere between 13 and 25 MPH by releasing the accelerator pedal and waiting for the “clunk” that signaled the disengagement of the underdrive. An M6 car would automatically shift from High down to underdrive high when car speed dropped below approximately 11 MPH.

Damn shame Mother Mopar didn't try to make their transmissions and transmission servicing confusing,ain't it?

[Plymouthy Adams]

2 minutes ago, knuckleharley said:

Damn shame Mother Mopar didn't try to make their transmissions and transmission servicing confusing,ain't it?

yes but look at their survivability................................................!

[kencombs]

6 minutes ago, wisconsinjimmy said:

will the plate on the fire wall tell me what trans I have?

•   #8

Posted yesterday at 12:54 PM

I have the Presto-Matic transmission

 

This is what you posted and all my answers/suggestions have been predicated on that.  I hope you really have that one

Edited May 20, 2018 by kencombs

[Plymouthy Adams]

24 minutes ago, wisconsinjimmy said:

will the plate on the fire wall tell me what trans I have?

 

are you flying with a safety net, namely a service manual?

[knuckleharley]

3 hours ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

yes but look at their survivability................................................!

Probably because everybody was afraid to fool with them.

[Plymouthy Adams]

Just now, knuckleharley said:

Probably because everybody was afraid to fool with them.

actually, I view it as " everyone had NO NEED to fool with them..."

[Plymouthy Adams]

do yourself and everyone here a favor and snap a picture of the passenger side of the transmission.....this should help identify what you have but to be honest with  you...the M6 is so distinctly different in looks to the also available base three speed it would be hard not to know the difference as I do not think pictures are in Russian...?

[DonaldSmith]

If you have the semi-automatic transmission, there will be wires running to the carburetor from the transmission.  These wires, on the right side of the transmission, can be seen from beneath the car, but better with the floor pan access cover removed. Remove the access panel, and you can see wires running from the solenoid, governor, and interruptor switch.   

And yes, there is a pump in the transmimssion, to send the 10 wt oil into a piston that performs the semi-automatic shift.  My shop manual shows this extensively and explains the operation.

With either type of transmission, you may have some wires on the left side of the transmission, to control a backup light. 

 

[Niel Hoback]

If you can move the shift lever out and down from neutral, you have a three speed transmission.

[DonaldSmith]

"Out" is towards the steering wheel, and down is the usual first speed location for a manual transmission.  Many a parking jockey has wondered why a semi-automatic Mopar won't go into first gear.