Shoulder Harness

[ssdodge51]

I searched the forum and didn't find anything so has anybody installed a Retractable 3-Point Shoulder Harness in a truck?

thanks

[Merle Coggins]

I know it's been discussed here in the past because I've put seat belts in my truck. I did some searching too and came up with a few threads that metioned it, but nothing fully dedicated to that topic.

I got a seat belt kit from Juliano's http://www.julianos.com/index.html but I'm sure there are other sources. Once I figured out where to put the upper anchors I drilled a hole in the inner cab wall just big enough for the anchor bolt to fit. I then drilled two smaller holes, one above and one below the larger hole. Then I tied a wire to the anchor plate and lowered it to place from the top. I used a bolt through the center hole to anchor it tight to the sheet metal, then I plug welded through the smaller holes to hold the anchor plate in place. Afterwards I realized I probably could have used a couple of smaller screws to hold the anchor plate in place without having to weld in the cab. If your cab is already painted that may be an option to think about.

Finding the mounting location for the retractors is the trick. The passenger side wasn't a problem, but the driver's side is. The fuel fill pipe is right in the way. I finally decided on a location that mounted it sideways behind the pipe. It seems to work fine for me.

Here's a few pics.

[JBNeal]

Were there any structural requirements that accompanied those seat belts? One of the problems my '49 had was that the cab floor had split apart at the rear mounts, about the same location as the seat belt retractors you've shown. As I recall, the cab has a sub-frame of sorts that stops just shy of those rear mounts, which is where the sheet metal had torn. I fabricated some plates of slightly thicker sheet metal to scab onto this area, which squared the cab up with the frame, and allowed the doors to open & close without scraping the door jambs.

My concern with seat belts in the Pilot House cabs is that the seat belts are anchored to sheet metal rather than structure, so that if the unthinkable happens, the seat belt anchors will pull through the sheet metal and have no safety effect. I have wondered that a subframe would be easy enough to fabricate between the rear cab mounts for lap belts, but the shoulder belt anchor would be a challenge as the only structure in the are is the door jambs. I have been planning on looking into this further when I get around to that stage of fixin' up the '48.

I had also thought about the 3-point harness installation similar to what the Dodge Quad Cabs came out with back in '98, where the seat belts were built into the seats. Of course the bench seats in the Pilot House cab don't have the head restraint as the Quad Cab seats did, so some sort of pillar would have to be fabricated to locate the shoulder anchor in an adequate location. This would probably look odd, and definitely be a skull-bopper if it weren't padded properly. Anyhow, it's a thinker I'm gonna stew on for awhile...

[ssdodge51]

Thanks for the info. What type of insulation do you have installed?

[greg g]

If you go to the Julianos site they have a tech how to installing three point bellts in a late 40's vintage Ford cab. Sure it is similalar enought to the PH cab to give you a good idea of what needs to be done.

[grey beard]

I used my B pillars to anchor my shoulder harnesses and put huge fender washers behind the retaining nuts. On the floor I used large pieces of steel on each side of the fastener. It'll never pull out in a collision, IMHO.

[JBNeal]

I had bookmarked Juliano's website but hadn't studied it that much...that how-to section filled in the gaps of what I was missing. I had been on the fence on whether to bother with seat belts, but this additional information makes me want to make this upgrade happen. The chrome latch reminds me of the lap belts that were in my friend's Dodge 440.

[Merle Coggins]

Thanks for the info. What type of insulation do you have installed?

Here is a thread about my entire interior work. http://www430.pair.com/p15d24/mopar_forum/showthread.php?t=13189&highlight=Interiors

Also, today I covered the floor insulation with duct tape because I found that the floor mat was chewing up the foil surface, especially under my feet. I'm hoping that the duct tape will toughen it up for better wear.

Merle

[John-T-53]

I've been thinking about doing this soon too. The interior of the pillars behind the doors concern me because they weren't engineered with seat belts in mind. The sheet metal where the seat belt would attach is only held on by a few welds and screws. Even with the anchor behind there, I'm skeptical if this area would hold in a higher speed collision. Keep in mind, with increasing speed, the attaching point must resist a pulling force of your body weight with inertia added to it - upwards into thousands of pounds. I'm thinking of this because I take my truck on the freeway often and see accidents all the time in LA.

But, installing it as the kit comes is no doubt a huge safety improvement, even over a lap belt. This combined with safe driving is a big step to lessen the chance of being killed or injured if the unthinkable happens. My mom gives me hell for driving my truck and my other 1950s era car all the time, just for the reason of safety. I hope I don't ever prove her right!

Edited February 4, 2010 by John-T-53

[JBNeal]

Come to think of it, has anyone put some sort of padding behind the interior to act as a head cushion? The '94 Rams were the first to have a bench seat with some sort of head restraint to help reduce the chance of whiplash in a rear end collision. Since the Pilot House cabs are of tighter quarters, the area between the middle & corner windows is practically in the location of a head restraint. But if an inattentive driver was to smack me from behind, I don't reckon that cab sheet metal is gonna feel too good. When I get to that part of my resto, I'm gonna try to stick some foam rubber or an old throw pillow up in there.

I've been mullin' about the location of the shoulder harness anchor. I'm thinkin' that in the event of a crash, the door frame would help to reinforce that area. The anchor area may move around as energy is being dissipated during a crash, but the effectiveness of the shoulder harness would acceptable. I ain't seen a crash test done on this era of truck, but my guess is that any type of body restraint is an improvement over the old thinking that 'bailing out' is the way to avoid injury.

[bkahler]

On 1/30/2010 at 10:25 AM, JBNeal said:

Were there any structural requirements that accompanied those seat belts? One of the problems my '49 had was that the cab floor had split apart at the rear mounts, about the same location as the seat belt retractors you've shown. As I recall, the cab has a sub-frame of sorts that stops just shy of those rear mounts, which is where the sheet metal had torn. I fabricated some plates of slightly thicker sheet metal to scab onto this area, which squared the cab up with the frame, and allowed the doors to open & close without scraping the door jambs.

My concern with seat belts in the Pilot House cabs is that the seat belts are anchored to sheet metal rather than structure, so that if the unthinkable happens, the seat belt anchors will pull through the sheet metal and have no safety effect. I have wondered that a subframe would be easy enough to fabricate between the rear cab mounts for lap belts, but the shoulder belt anchor would be a challenge as the only structure in the are is the door jambs. I have been planning on looking into this further when I get around to that stage of fixin' up the '48.

I had also thought about the 3-point harness installation similar to what the Dodge Quad Cabs came out with back in '98, where the seat belts were built into the seats. Of course the bench seats in the Pilot House cab don't have the head restraint as the Quad Cab seats did, so some sort of pillar would have to be fabricated to locate the shoulder anchor in an adequate location. This would probably look odd, and definitely be a skull-bopper if it weren't padded properly. Anyhow, it's a thinker I'm gonna stew on for awhile...

 

I'm resurrecting this old thread because I've had too much time to think about this subject which is a really bad thing

 

When I think about the differences between Unibody vs Body on Frame construction I start to wonder which method of seat belt anchoring would be best.  The two choices are the seat belt mounts bolt directly to structural (i.e. frame members) or using large metal backing washers and bolting through sheet metal.  I started thinking about this issue several years ago as I was rebuilding my 74 Argosy motorhome.  The original seatbelts were anchored to the structural part of the cab but not directly to the frame.  No shoulder harnesses, just lap belts.  The later style of motor home seat mounts now have the seat belts integral to the pedestal so it now depends on how well the pedestals are anchored and where.  Typically they are anchored to the structural portions of the cab but not directly to the frame.  In other words if the cab starts to separate from the frame then the seat goes with the cab.

 

I have a Triumph TR6 that had one end of the lap belt bolt to the frame, the other end of the lap belt bolted with a large backing washer through sheet metal.  The shoulder mounting was also done with a large backing washer through sheet metal.  In this case if the sheet metal body separates from the frame the seat belts would likely rip out of the sheet metal although I'm sure the driver/passenger would certainly pay a price for that separation.  

 

For my Dodge B3B bolting to the frame would be relatively difficult to do and would require some extra fabrication to get it done.  As most seem to have done I would use large backing washers for the lap portion of the belts.

 

One concern I have with using seat belts that bolt to the frame of a vehicle is what would happen in a crash where the sheet metal body of the vehicle starts to separate from the frame?  In a case like this it would seem that your body would now be the soft part that would be trying to keep the two pieces together.  In other words it seems like you would get sliced in two by the lap belt.  This may not be the case but I haven't been able to come up with any logic to say otherwise!  

 

I guess what it gets down to is I can't see a good justification for fastening direction to the frame when you have a sheet metal body that can separate from the frame in a crash.  

 

To be totally up front, I don't have a clue which is better so you won't get any answers as to what is best from me, I'm just looking for input from others! ?

 

Brad

[Merle Coggins]

For the reason you mentioned, DO NOT attach the belts to the frame. 

[David A.]

I agree 100% with Merle.

[bkahler]

It's good to know my mind was in the right place

 

Thanks!

[Jeff Balazs]

I want to share my perspective on this with you. I fitted these belts several years ago and they work just fine. I use the truck and these belts pretty much every day. I also have a fire extinguisher and a first aid kit within easy reach.

 

When we put a vehicle of this vintage on the road we have a responsibility to ourselves and others to do so carefully. It needs to be reliable....have very good brakes and tires......and be well lit at night. In other words we need to set an example or we risk doing harm to everyone around us.

 

I think these belts would be quite effective in in preventing most passenger injuries in minor fender benders etc. In the case of a more serious accident I think it is going to depend on what sort of accident you are in and the other vehicles that might be involved. Certainly there is not a lot of padding in these cabs to absorb impact during a collision.

 

One plus I have noticed is that when I drive my truck most other drivers tend to give it a much wider berth than when I drive a much more modern vehicle. Of course you can't count on this but in most cases it holds true.

 

Jeff

 

[Plymouthy Adams]

the wider berth is because they more than not seen some of the workmanship on some of these older cars...while I will not say that is the norm for folks of this forum but honestly, you know what I am taking about if  you have ever been to some of the local gatherings...everything above is well said and should be taken to heart....not only in seat belt install, but in every aspect of the repair/regeneration of an older vehicle.  

[kencombs]

1 hour ago, Jeff Balazs said:

I want to share my perspective on this with you. I fitted these belts several years ago and they work just fine. I use the truck and these belts pretty much every day. I also have a fire extinguisher and a first aid kit within easy reach.

 

When we put a vehicle of this vintage on the road we have a responsibility to ourselves and others to do so carefully. It needs to be reliable....have very good brakes and tires......and be well lit at night. In other words we need to set an example or we risk doing harm to everyone around us.

 

I think these belts would be quite effective in in preventing most passenger injuries in minor fender benders etc. In the case of a more serious accident I think it is going to depend on what sort of accident you are in and the other vehicles that might be involved. Certainly there is not a lot of padding in these cabs to absorb impact during a collision.

 

One plus I have noticed is that when I drive my truck most other drivers tend to give it a much wider berth than when I drive a much more modern vehicle. Of course you can't count on this but in most cases it holds true.

 

Jeff

 

The red above is very true.  Not only to ourselves but future drivers. That is why my project will be getting a later model collapsible steering column.   I would like to prevent any heir or other future driver from getting impaled by that hard steel rod that came stock.  That, and I'll get a modern turn signal switch, self canceling and a locking column in the deal.  And it will be connected to a power steering box.

[ggdad1951]

19 hours ago, Jeff Balazs said:

I want to share my perspective on this with you. I fitted these belts several years ago and they work just fine. I use the truck and these belts pretty much every day. I also have a fire extinguisher and a first aid kit within easy reach.

 

When we put a vehicle of this vintage on the road we have a responsibility to ourselves and others to do so carefully. It needs to be reliable....have very good brakes and tires......and be well lit at night. In other words we need to set an example or we risk doing harm to everyone around us.

 

I think these belts would be quite effective in in preventing most passenger injuries in minor fender benders etc. In the case of a more serious accident I think it is going to depend on what sort of accident you are in and the other vehicles that might be involved. Certainly there is not a lot of padding in these cabs to absorb impact during a collision.

 

One plus I have noticed is that when I drive my truck most other drivers tend to give it a much wider berth than when I drive a much more modern vehicle. Of course you can't count on this but in most cases it holds true.

 

Jeff

 

 

CA must be better about wider berth, I get cut off all the time when I am forced to drive on the big boy highways...and generally followed by a slam on the brakes....my vintage 1 ton truck will smash right over your little tinfoil Kia and I'll be dead all because they had to try and save 10 seconds on their drive.  

 

As for being lit at night, a recent run to a gathering that had me coming home after dark I almost got rear ended when I needed to turn left off a local 2 lane (all under a streetlight).  One brake light, black box and at night has me thinking I won't be driving at night anymore with FEF, too many people speeding nad not paying attention to whats ahead of them vs. what's on the their little screens.  And what I have is perfectly legal to drive.....

[Jeff Balazs]

Well Mark I doubt California is any better at this than where you live. But what do I know?

 

When I was putting my truck together I knew what I would be up against using a vintage truck as a daily commuter. Being legal as far as lighting goes is just not enough these days. In stock form these trucks simply do not have enough lighting to be safe in traffic after dark or in low visibility situations like fog or heavy rain.

 

I have addressed this by adding a third brake lite in the rear window and an additional pair of brake lites at the rear. My turn signals are separate amber lites at the rear and amber bulbs in the front housings. To help better lite the truck from the side I added amber marker lites in my rear step bumper and have a pair of amber truck lites on top of the cab. What I have can't be missed.......unlike a Pilothouse without these extra lamps.

 

To top it off I just replaced the Halogen headlamps with a 6V Led kit from Vics Garage. The Halogens were just OK .....these Led's are much brighter.

 

Jeff

[John-T-53]

I like them light bar LED strips that some have below their tailgates. I don't think any come in a 6v version though....

 

Otherwise, red and white striped reflective tape strip across the back bumper...

 

 

[Merle Coggins]

Mark,

Maybe you need a little more ‘bling’ on the back of your truck when your out driving around… especially at night. ?

 

[Dave72dt]

My tailgate came with a couple of big reflectors bolted to it when I got it about 30 years ago so truck visibility at night was a problem even then, even in a mostly rural area.

[Merle Coggins]

9 hours ago, Dave72dt said:

My tailgate came with a couple of big reflectors bolted to it when I got it about 30 years ago so truck visibility at night was a problem even then, even in a mostly rural area.

 

Mine had the same thing. Even the replacement tailgate I acquired had them. The holes are still there. It seemed to be a common "upgrade" of that time.  

[bkahler]

1 hour ago, Merle Coggins said:

 

Mine had the same thing. Even the replacement tailgate I acquired had them. The holes are still there. It seemed to be a common "upgrade" of that time.  

 

Ditto

[JBNeal]

additional information - sill plate reflectors