Front end alignment

[SteveR]

on my 37 Plymouth, I am getting inside wear in my front right tire. The left side is wearing fine. Is this a toe-in/out problem or a camber or?

If there is an alignment problem can I do it myself or can a garage do this here in England? It appears that garages here mostly service European cars

[Bob Riding]

I am also getting inside wear on my '40, but both tires. I remember seeing a visual chart showing problems and fixes, but can't seem to locate it just now...

[Plymouthy Adams]

there is a pictured section of the repair manual, front suspension, that shows the tire wear patters with cause and correction.  

 

As an aside, there are many inexpensive quick check caster camber gauges on the market.  A must if you plan to do this yourself.

Edited August 16, 2023 by Plymouthy Adams

[Sniper]

How do you correct camber on a solid front axle like a 37 has?

 

I can't look up the specifics on a 37 Plymouth, but generally you bend the axle to correct camber. 

 

In this case, I'd look for an alignment shop that does HD trucks, they are setup to do this kind of work.  Whereas you and I, and most car alignment shops, are not.

 

I did the alignment on my 51 but it has an adjustment for camber.

 

I would very closely inspect the king pins for wear though.

[Plymouthy Adams]

per the book, the caster is adjusted with shims between the springs and the axle center....but camber is not recommended fix by bending per the manual.  Of course advancements in frame machines have come a long way and would not rule bending out as at least a first try before seeking replacement axle .  Either way repair or replace, you have to be able to read these angles to determine the amount out of tolerance.  I also would not cast any real money for a used axle with one cannot verify prior to install for same reason as the problem one is trying correct, used item with possible damage.  The book further states that the axle center bend is suspect along with the possible damage to the steering knuckle. 

 

 

1937-38 Plymouth (Rigid, Reverse Elliot type)

 

Camber 0 to +3/4 with 1/4 preferred.

Caster 1 to 3 with 2 preferred.

Toe 1/32 inch

kingpin angle...4 1/2 to 5 1/2

(1936:  9-10 on kingpin angle but same as 37-38 otherwise)

[Adam H P15 D30]

I would check your kingpin / bushings on the side that's wearing before anything else.

Could also be a bent spindle

Probably not toe because it's only 1 side.

 

EDIT: Check wheel bearings also

Edited August 16, 2023 by Adam H P15 D30

[SteveR]

It would appear that in checking my alignment, camber, caster, king pins I can not do this myself but need the garage and its specialized equipment. Is this the case?

[SteveR]

11 hours ago, Adam H P15 D30 said:

I would check your kingpin / bushings on the side that's wearing before anything else.

Could also be a bent spindle

Probably not toe because it's only 1 side.

 

EDIT: Check wheel bearings also

I have checked my bearings and they seem ok. How do I check the king pins and bush?

[Adam H P15 D30]

Jack the front wheel off the ground and rock it top to bottom, up and down and look for movement in the kingpin area.  Might as well check your tie rod ends while you're at it.

 

Your smart phone should have an angle meter on it, check camber degrees with it before jacking the car up.

[SteveR]

3 hours ago, Adam H P15 D30 said:

Jack the front wheel off the ground and rock it top to bottom, up and down and look for movement in the kingpin area.  Might as well check your tie rod ends while you're at it.

 

Your smart phone should have an angle meter on it, check camber degrees with it before jacking the car up.

Thanks I'll give that a try.

Smart phone? What's that? oh you mean a Mobil Phone. I don't have one of those either. I'm just a little bit more advanced than 2 cans and a piece of string.

[Sniper]

I have several digital inclinometers that work for that.  Heck you can get an old school magnetic protractor for this.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Johnson-Level-Tool-700-Magnetic/dp/B00004T807/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=magnetic+protractor&qid=1692298571&sr=8-5

 

[SteveR]

Ok I had some time and checked the Camber of my wheels. Both are at 0 deg. We have been haveing rain here and as I do not have a garage I'm not a diehard who likes working in the rain if I don't have to. My next step will be checking play in the king pin. Any other ideas?

[westaus29]

I had bad scrubbing of a front tyre and it turned out to be too much play in the tie rod joints. Read the manual and tightened them up then backed off a whisker, solved the problem.

[Dan Hiebert]

Incorrect toe adjustment generally affects both wheels...but.  If the toe was adjusted without first ensuring the steering was centered, an incorrect toe adjustment can affect wear on just one side.  If the tire is wearing too much on the inside, and there is feathering of the tread away from the worn spot, it is a toe in/out issue.  One of the symptoms is the car darting along the road for no particular reason, which can be difficult to diagnose if you have bias ply tires, since they tend to follow irregularities in the road anyway.  It's not a difficult adjustment to make, it helps to have the specific gauges for the measuring, but those aren't mandatory if you're ok with field expedient equipment and have patience.  

[SteveR]

My steering wheel is off-set. It is not the original wheel so was it put on wrongly? I do have an excess of play turning the steering wheel side to side of about 3". I have also had both from wheels off the ground and turned the wheels back and forth and have not seen any play. Likewise, I have had the wheels on the ground and looked for play and do not see any. My wear is on the passenger wheel only on the inside.

[Plymouthy Adams]

On 8/17/2023 at 6:19 AM, SteveR said:

It would appear that in checking my alignment, camber, caster, king pins I can not do this myself but need the garage and its specialized equipment. Is this the case?

NO...but in the same light, you will need some of the very equipment on hand.   You can rig turn plates easy enough...you will need a caster camber gauge.  A method to check the front wheels parallel with the rear for thrust.  Once this is established...centering the wheel and adjusting the tie rod ends is your final step for setting toe.   If you do not do this type of work often enough, it will likely be a bit costly setting up for the this task.  Therefore, an alignment shop should prove advantageous and given that king pin style front suspension long endured in the UK...your local shops should be able to quickly and correctly identify any issue and do the alignment.  The specs I listed above should be all you need to give your mechanic/shop.  Do not rule out wheel problems and or wheel bearing issues.  You can do this testing at home...but you need to be able to lever the suspension parts due to spring preload to determine if any excessive play is in one side or the other or maybe both.  

 

Being a straight axle, do not overlook the condition of the spring eye bushings and shackle conditions.  

[Los_Control]

Just now, SteveR said:

My steering wheel is off-set.

I was watching a guy do a alignment after installing a new steering box & rebuild the front end.

Very first thing he did was turn the wheel all the way to one side, then count the turns to get to the other side.

Lets pretend it was 4 full turns, so 2 turns puts the steering box in center position. ..... This is where your wheel should be centered.

(spoiler alert) ..... It will be some odd ball number like 4 & 7/8 or 4 & 1/4 turns .... some guess work will be involved.

Kinda crude method but will eliminate the wondering of if the wheel was installed in wrong position.

 

Just a guess because I cant see whats going on ..... 3" of play is coming from somewhere, if you can not see it I suspect it is inside the steering box.

Seems like you would still see it from when the steering shaft turns & when the arm off the end of the box turns?

[SteveR]

36 minutes ago, Los_Control said:

Seems like you would still see it from when the steering shaft turns & when the arm off the end of the box turns?

I did have my wife turn the steering wheel while I watched the arm off the box. There is play there. I attempted to adjust the screw on the inside and that helped tighten up the steering but I believe I may have to take apart the steering box. We have a wedding to do in October so I am reluctant to do this job before that.

[Plymouthy Adams]

the steering unfortunately does get its most wear in the center as this is the position the wheel is in majority of its driving cycles.  So you can try to adjust the worm but be aware that as you adjust for slop here, you will likely remove the necessary play on either side of center.  Trade off so maybe only adjust a bit of the slop and not go for it all at this one point.  Odds are you would be better served checking the end play first.  

[Los_Control]

Just now, Plymouthy Adams said:

Odds are you would be better served checking the end play first.

I want to say @Plymouthy Adams has the tools and has done this job many times .... he is not blowing smoke up your caboose .

 

@keithb7 has done a video of rebuilding these boxes .... A very good one.

Not sure if this is the correct one but looks like a good place to start.

 

Just now, SteveR said:

We have a wedding to do in October so I am reluctant to do this job before that.

While I do not want to be a negative Nelly .... I wanted to say something earlier I put the zipper on my mouth closed.

 

Ford trucks are notorious for needing to adjust the steering box. I had a 1987 & it was sold cheap because the steering was so bad. A 1/4 turn on the adjusting nut & I drove it for over 15 years.

Years earlier I had a 1969 Ford truck with the same problem ... I adjusted it a 1/4 turn & it was fine. Drove it for 3 or 4 years with no problem.

This truck was a retired furniture moving truck that had a zillion miles on it. Was a box truck with a heavy duty lift gate on the rear. Got driven daily.

I cut the top of the box off & made it a flat bed with no removable sides & a lift gate & was used for construction.

 

One day on my way to work with no warning, the gear in the steering box broke. I had a long driveway to the road & thank God it broke in the driveway.

I could turn the wheel 8 times and get no reaction from the front tires .... It took over a 1/2 hour just to back the truck back up the driveway to the house to park it.

 

As I say, no warning it just broke going down a driveway .... If it broke when I was on the freeway going 65mph Somebody would have died. Or seriously injured .... zero control of the steering ..... only just to stop as fast as you can .... How many people would have I ran into with that big truck before it stopped?

Yes I believe  we have a God .... maybe not looking after me that day but someone that might have been in my path?

 

We need to adjust the steering box because the gears wear thin. Every time we adjust the box they continue to wear thinner.

They can only be adjusted so many times before they are to thin to be safe.

You adjusted it once, can you tell us how many in the past has adjusted it? Miles & history can give us a good guess.

Are you certain you want to rent out your services with a possible deadly steering box?

 

If that car ran off the road & rolled over, killed the bride on her wedding day .... would your insurance cover it ..... what about your conscious ?

 

You do you, you know your steering is fugged up ... 3" of play is ridiculous .... fix it or call it off. ...... IMHO.

[Plymouthy Adams]

just yesterday did a quick check of camber to ensure I am within adjusting range with the new rebuild suspension of this small vehicle.

 

 

[SteveR]

14 hours ago, Los_Control said:

3" of play is ridiculous

This 3" play I am talking about is turning the steering wheel left to right before the wheels start to turn. I have no play in or out. When I adjusted the screw it only moved 1/16". When I drive down the road I am not wandering all over it. If I take the wheel and turn it I get a small movement in the steering arm before the steering wheel turns, about 1/2"

You are right Los It does need to be looked at as I can not say what I can not see inside the box.

[kencombs]

22 hours ago, Los_Control said:

I want to say @Plymouthy Adams has the tools and has done this job many times .... he is not blowing smoke up your caboose .

 

@keithb7 has done a video of rebuilding these boxes .... A very good one.

 

 

 

One day on my way to work with no warning, the gear in the steering box broke. I had a long driveway to the road & thank God it broke in the driveway.

I could turn the wheel 8 times and get no reaction from the front tires .... It took over a 1/2 hour just to back the truck back up the driveway to the house to park it.

 

 

I've  seen a few steering gear failures over the years.  They all had one thing in common, a serious wreck.   Some were immediate, others happened some time after the wreck and the vehicle had been repaired.  Probably cracked or severely weakened by the impact and later failed.  Pin on older Ross boxes, roller on some and one or two worm gears.   Wear didn't seem to be a major part of the sudden failures, but surely possible.  But a quick inspection would reveal any worn that badly.  I'd bet that if they are worn too thing it would be impossible to adjust the play out and still turn all the way both ways.  It would bind badly on the ends where not much wear happens.

 

 

[Los_Control]

5 hours ago, SteveR said:

This 3" play I am talking about is turning the steering wheel left to right before the wheels start to turn.

Steve I might be rude, I could even be wrong .... it has happened before 

I like to think of the members here in this forum as a family. I will say things to friends & family that I would not say to a stranger .... cause just none of my business.

So I spoke what was on my mind .... do with it what you will.

I feel if you are comfortable with it and want to drive it .... thats on you buddy. .... When you offer a service to someone, that changes your responsibilities substantially.

Just my opinion and I mean no harm from it.

 

My 49 truck, I feel pretty lucky that it was parked in a field for 20+ years in pretty decent mechanical shape. It had problems, I understand why they parked it.

With it in the air, there is less then 1/2" play before the tires turn.... maybe a 1/4"? .... There is some but almost impossible to actually measure it.

Just a old truck pulled out of a field. The steering box is full of oil & not leaking .... I got lucky. .... Is your box full of oil?

I just feel a proper working steering system on our old cars are doable.

Just now, kencombs said:

I'd bet that if they are worn too thing it would be impossible to adjust the play out and still turn all the way both ways.  It would bind badly on the ends where not much wear happens.

6 hours ago, SteveR said:

When I adjusted the screw it only moved 1/16".

That has me curious ... I'm told you only go 1/4 of a turn at a time.  On the 1969 Ford thats what I did, then drove it 7 or 8 months and then adjusted it again.

The 2nd time around really helped a lot then drove it for 4 years before it broke.

 

Steve says he could only turn the adjustment 1/16" .... Maybe the gears are not worn & actually too tight now? .... I do not know correct answer .... seems like there should be some play in between the gears and not bottomed out tight between each other. That would just cause other issues. Not play.

I would almost want to back off the adjusting nut 1/16" put it where it was & not tight.

 

If the box is full of oil, not leaking, is that tight .... maybe the issue is elsewhere?

 

[kencombs]

2 hours ago, Los_Control said:

 

Steve says he could only turn the adjustment 1/16" .... Maybe the gears are not worn & actually too tight now? .... I do not know correct answer .... seems like there should be some play in between the gears and not bottomed out tight between each other. That would just cause other issues. Not play.

I would almost want to back off the adjusting nut 1/16" put it where it was & not tight.

 

 

The clearance between the roller and worm is measured in thousandths.   The screw acts directly on the roller mechanism, so 1/16" is a huge amount.   On the other hand, if the measurement was of rotation not axial that's a whole nuther thing.   If the adjustment is too tight it will begin to bind as it moves off center as the worm gets bigger toward it's ends.