Seat Belts

[Eneto-55]

11 hours ago, Los_Control said:

Just a opinion .... I will start off with I have zero plans for seat belts at this time, I only plan on driving around town at 25-35 mph .... I may change my mind later.

 

IMHO .... If a seat belt works correctly, you will break some bones. The job of a seat belt is to restrain you in case of a violent impact.

That is fine, that is why we have seat belts. They save our life's.

 

I kinda think that a lot of engineering goes into proper placement of seat belts. All my injuries, broken pelvic, 3 cracked & 3 broken ribs, 1 broken collar bone, 1 cracked collar bone .... punctured lung. 

All of my injuries was caused from seat belt restraint, they did what they were designed to do. Saved my life .... yeah the air bag helped also.

 

My only point here, A proper lap belt will break your pelvic bone. ..... You have the wrong angle on it, will it slide up & rip out your guts instead?

A proper seat belt will do some bodily harm, the angle will choose where the body gets harmed.

I personally would not compromise  & try to imitate exactly what previous engineers have proven...... you do you.

You raise another important point with your photo - we've only been talking about front end collision here.  I don't know of anyone who has installed airbags in their old cars.  These cars have a lot of very hard surfaces inside, and the door latches do not compare well to modern latches, either.  [EDIT: in respect to doors coming open in a crash]   And I definitely agree about the engineering part.  None of us can do crash testing, so we'd better "follow the science" on this one.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Eneto-55

[Los_Control]

I think the biggest point I could make on the subject, improperly installed seat belts could potentially cause more bodily damage then if you were thrown clear out of the vehicle with no seat belt.

 

 

[Adam H P15 D30]

11 minutes ago, Eneto-55 said:

Snip

 

Regarding the pretensioner - What sort of mechanism locks the shoulder belt when you come to a stop, like on a downhill slope?  (At least it does on my 2010 Grand Caravan.  There's a township road I often use that descends sharply down to a state road, at quite an angle.  I cannot lean forward right away to see up the highway, to check for traffic.  The shoulder belt is locked for a bit after coming to a complete stop.)

 

 

I can only speak to how Ford does it but I assume others are the same.  The locking mechanism you speak of is a simple inertia lock, all mechanical.  The buckle (which is attached to the seat frame) has a small explosive charge that pulls the seat belt tight when airbags are deployed.  

[bartenderfloyd]

Here's how I attached the rear belts

I used the same belts on the front seat too.  I anchored them to the seat frame.  They were really easy to install.

Edited August 24, 2022 by bartenderfloyd

[Eneto-55]

1 hour ago, Los_Control said:

I think the biggest point I could make on the subject, improperly installed seat belts could potentially cause more bodily damage then if you were thrown clear out of the vehicle with no seat belt.

Well, I knew a Brazilian guy who was hitching a ride on a fuel truck.  People would climb on top of the tankers and hang onto the low rail that goes around the top.  Some would tie themselves to the rail, in case they fell asleep.  He was up there when the truck went off the road and rolled over.  He was thrown clear of the tanker, while some others were crushed.  (This was on the Trans Amazon, which is mostly dirt road,  It can sometime take a couple of days to go a hundred miles or so.  I never traveled over that road, except a short section that was paved, from where the Porto Velho - Manaus road crosses the Trans-Amazon, then east a short distance to Humaita.)

[Eneto-55]

21 minutes ago, Adam H P15 D30 said:

I can only speak to how Ford does it but I assume others are the same.  The locking mechanism you speak of is a simple inertia lock, all mechanical.  The buckle (which is attached to the seat frame) has a small explosive charge that pulls the seat belt tight when airbags are deployed.  

I was wondering if it was that sort of mechanism.  (When I stripped down & scrapped our old 93 Chrysler T & C I came upon something that appeared to work in that way.)

[Jim Neville]

Wow! Seat belts sure is a hot topic. I'm going to do more investigating before I put belts in my '50 Windsor. Does anyone have a pic of seat belts and the anchor position that are in a 2 door convertible? Thank you.

[SteveR]

16 hours ago, SteveR said:

"Damn the torpedoes and full speed ahead"!

Correct. You must be a Civil war buff. What battle and year?

 

I see all to often people with classic cars drive like this saying.

[JonathanC]

I put a set of chrome lift-latch lap belts from Juliano's in my 1941 club coupe. They were shipped to me in Canada at lightning speed when I ordered them. I did have to pay customs duty when they came in. Their customer service was pretty helpful when I asked them about what I should get. Anyway, I'm happy with how they turned out.

 

I put the longer length in the front (74", two sets), and three sets of 60" belts in the rear. This was what they recommended when I discussed it with them. The rear floorpan is higher under the rear seat, so you don't need the longer belts there. They are fine to anchor my grandkids in their booster seats.

 

The belts are anchored to the floor under the seats using seatbelt mounting plate kits (not expensive) also sold by Juliano's.

 

https://www.julianos.com/Chrome-Lift-Latch-Lap-Belt-p/ju0ll1.htm

[Art Bailey]

I'm very far from having to worry about seatbelts with my project...it's pretty hard to have a collision sitting in my garage, making motor noises. But, I've collected a few articles. Here's Juliano's tech post on installing 3 point front belts in a VW, which would be not far off from dealing with our wimpy B pillars: https://www.julianos.com/Articles.asp?ID=247

 

Good discussion here, with good tips from Plymouthy Adams:

Finally, here's a guy who actually put in 3 point belts in his project, NickPickToo. I can't find a post where he actually talks about it, but there's lots of pics. Back seat belts are attached to the package tray, and he uses bucket seats in front. 

I agree with the idea that the seat belts are most likely only going to be helpful in a minor crack up--anything major, I'm probably toast. But, my grandfather died from injuries sustained from a pretty minor (by today's standards) collision, a few years after the fact. His chest impacted the steering column, damaging his heart. He was 42. We have a photo of the wreck, it was salvageable, and my mom drove it all through high school. So, that thought, along with a bad collision that my mom, sister and I was in and survived, motivates me to have at least some kind of protection which will include 3 point belts. 

 

[harmony]

On 8/23/2022 at 3:51 AM, Jim Neville said:

Hello all. My '50 Windsor Convertible is finally ready for some cruising. New wire harness, fuel pump, new Coker tires, fuel sending unit, new brakes, etc. I would like to put seat belts in it once the cold weather hits. Because it's a convertible, I can only put lap belts in. Has anyone put belts in a convertible? Not sure how to anchor them. Does anyone know of a seller in Canada that would sell these? Thanks.

KMS Car Parts in Coquitlam BC carry them.  86" and they are the aviation style in several colours. $42

[harmony]

I have two vintage cars that were never issued seatbelts when the cars were made. That's not about to change.   I also rode a Harley for 4 decades without a seat belt.  I'm still alive.  It's about the choices we make and my choice is to have fun.  Back in 1976 when they made it law in Canada, I hated the authorities telling me I had to buckle up.  I still hate it. 

 

For those who think I'm foolish and that seat belts are a smart choice, I'm curious how many of them have a 5 point harness and also wear a helmet when going out to pick up a few groceries?

[SteveR]

1 hour ago, harmony said:

I also rode a Harley for 4 decades without a seat belt.  I'm still alive

I think you brought up a good point. How many people here rode motorcycles? I did, and in Minnesota you did not need to wear a helmet either. I know there is always the, 'what if' and health and safety aspect. However if a person were to not wear a helmet on a motorcycle he is more apt to drive it conservatively and defensively. My 37 Plymouth does not have seatbelts. I have thought about it however in England I do not have access to parts for my car like you do in America. They all have to come from America and shipping cost dictates that if I am in a fender-bender it is going to cost me way to much to repair let alone finding those parts for replacement. So instead I drive defensively and conservatively and concentrate on my driving and those around me.

[andyd]

These pics are probably not much help but all I can find at present......

.................I have 3 point mounting lap sash retractable belts for both front seats, the upper pillar mounts are via small threaded pieces of steel strap inserted into the pillars from the upper interior light opening, fed down the inside of the pillar then pop rivetted to the pillar then bolted using 7/16th correct seat belt mounting bolts thru the pillar into the inside plate....the other two front seat mounts are held onto the centre floor and outer floor edge with the correct 7/16th bolts thru the floor then threaded into floor bracing plates under the floor.............

...................the rear seat belts are non retractable 3 point belts on the outer seat positions each of the 3 mounting points, ie the upper mount  is via the rear parcel shelf, side mount is via the inner wheel well and inner is via the seat mounting frame that is factory welded to the original floor  each of these mounting points uses factory style 7/16th seat belt bolts and hardware including reinforcing plates and correct sized nuts ...........

..............the centre rear seat belt is a lap belt, again with reinforcing plates, 7/16th factory style seat belt bolts and hardware...........

...........whilst I will certainly not state that the seat belt installation is the equivalent of that installed via an OEM factory setup it is certainly better that none at all.........

..........and I also have mounted on the rear parcel shelf the correct factory style child safety seat mounting "bolts" for when my grandchildren were under 8yrs & had to use the specified child safety seats.  

..............I also have the Oz Valiant collapsable steering column setup, ie, the concertina style "can"  as can be seen below the steering wheel

.........as well as 4wheel disc brakes & a dual circuit master cylinder.........

 

......Andy Douglas   

[Sniper]

7 hours ago, SteveR said:

How many people here rode motorcycles? I did, and in Minnesota you did not need to wear a helmet either.

 

Just ask Gary Busey how well that worked out.  Been riding, on and off, for 41 years.  On a motorcycle it's not if but rather when you dump it.  Oddly enough, my son and I were discussing that very thing yesterday, I also told him that when you are riding a bike drive like everyone is deliberately trying to kill you, because they are.  Bikes have three advantages over a car and safety is not one of them.  You can out accelerate them, you can out handle them and you can out stop them, that last one is dubious most of the time because a stopped bike is an easy target.  Use the first two to not be where the car is aiming.

 

So yeah, I wear a helmet, a thick leather jacket, steel toed boots and leather gloves, even in 100+ degree weather, because I have dumped it and I have shredded flesh.

[SteveR]

2 hours ago, Sniper said:

Just ask Gary Busey how well that worked out.  Been riding, on and off, for 41 years.  On a motorcycle it's not if but rather when you dump it.  Oddly enough, my son and I were discussing that very thing yesterday, I also told him that when you are riding a bike drive like everyone is deliberately trying to kill you, because they are.  Bikes have three advantages over a car and safety is not one of them.  You can out accelerate them, you can out handle them and you can out stop them, that last one is dubious most of the time because a stopped bike is an easy target.  Use the first two to not be where the car is aiming.

 

So yeah, I wear a helmet, a thick leather jacket, steel toed boots and leather gloves, even in 100+ degree weather, because I have dumped it and I have shredded flesh.

LOL almost sounds like my experiences and I totally agree with what you wrote!

My daughter when 16 asked me if she could have a ride on a friend's scooter. I said 1 thing you need to understand, it doesn't matter if you're doing 5mph or 55mph, if the bike gets dumped, you're going to get hurt. You be the judge if you want to get hurt or not.

I personally think motorcycle riders are better drivers of cars. They understand the consequences involved. BTW I always rode with a helmet, boots (to cover my ankles) jacket and gloves and I have the scars to show what happens when your doing something stupid.

[kencombs]

2 hours ago, Sniper said:

 

Just ask Gary Busey how well that worked out.  Been riding, on and off, for 41 years.  On a motorcycle it's not if but rather when you dump it.  Oddly enough, my son and I were discussing that very thing yesterday, I also told him that when you are riding a bike drive like everyone is deliberately trying to kill you, because they are.  Bikes have three advantages over a car and safety is not one of them.  You can out accelerate them, you can out handle them and you can out stop them, that last one is dubious most of the time because a stopped bike is an easy target.  Use the first two to not be where the car is aiming.

 

So yeah, I wear a helmet, a thick leather jacket, steel toed boots and leather gloves, even in 100+ degree weather, because I have dumped it and I have shredded flesh.

https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=ttales&th=547689. 

I’m into small old tractors and visit the above site frequently.  This popped up as an example of why I’m in the safety equipment camp.  
 

I know we can’t come close to the safety of a newer vehicle but I’ll damn well try!

[Sniper]

You must be logged in to read or post in the Tractor Tales Off-Topic forum.

 

 

[James_Douglas]

We have been using our 1947 Desoto as a daily driver since 2003. Now here in SF we only do about 3000 miles a year. We do not have any belts in it.

 

Over the last few years however the number of close calls seems to have increased. Particularly on the freeways. When I start to go through the car next year, I plan on adding belts. The law in California is such that if yo install them you have to use them.

 

I plan on using some steel plates welded to the underside of the body. A few holes with in and out spot type welds. Then 4 bolts in addition. This spreads out any forces to a larger area than a large washer.

 

As to three point...the Desoto Suburban has a quite large post between the doors. I will weld in a plate with the appropriate threaded nut for a three way belt.

 

One thing is the seats. They suck as far as the 1940's frame goes. They can hop out. The adjusters are just a bad design. In fact I have had to bailing wire the adjusters down to they will not move.  I am thinking of using some turnbuckles with solid rods to set the front seat adjustment and remove the side handle making it more of longer term adjustment mechanism rather than a on demand one.

 

I have no problem with people deciding to not use belts or riding a motorcycle without a helmet. As long as THEY are paying for medical insurance and long term care insurance so that the taxpayer is not on the hook for that decision.

 

James

[SteveR]

21 minutes ago, James_Douglas said:

I have no problem with people deciding to not use belts or riding a motorcycle without a helmet. As long as THEY are paying for medical insurance and long term care insurance so that the taxpayer is not on the hook for that decision.

No problem there, In England, we have National Health coverage. Even if I become a vegetable I'm taken care of. I probably won't know it though.

[Sniper]

No idea about the UK, but here if you are in the military and get in and accident without a helmet you are screwed, they will cover nothing and if you die your survivors do not get the life insurance either. 

[SteveR]

1 minute ago, Sniper said:

No idea about the UK, but here if you are in the military and get in and accident without a helmet you are screwed, they will cover nothing and if you die your survivors do not get the life insurance either. 

OUCH!

I didn't serve in the military. My draft number was 300 so I didn't have to go. They took 1-75 that year for the draft. Viet Nam did not sound like the place to be in 71

[Sniper]

Didn't used to be that way, at least it wasn't when I was in, but that was when the motorcycle safety program was just starting out.  My SIL is active duty now and he's the one that filled me in on it.

[Eneto-55]

On 8/23/2022 at 11:00 AM, Sam Buchanan said:

....

I still want shoulder belts, but may have to give up on retractable belts due to space restrictions in my car. 

 

 

Old thread, I know.  But I just saw a photo of a P15 for sale in Canada (Port Colborne, Ontario, offered "for a friend" by a guy by the name of Gord Gibbs), and immediately noticed the location of the drivers seat-belt retractor.  No mention was made of reinforcement behind there, but I would guess that something was done.  Enough? Who knows.  But this location is not something that had ever occurred to me.  Yes, it would require a LOT of work on the inside of the seat base, the seat adjuster, and in my opinion, the seat frame to floor mounting as well.  So here's a photo snip I took of the picture of the entire car on FaceBook.

 

(One of my ideas is to locate the retractor inside the seat frame, below the seat cushion.  But I think that they have to be oriented upright, so that would probably be pretty complicated. My other hair-brained idea? Pass the belt through the floor, and attach the retractor to the underside of the floor, with a box fastened over it, from underneath.  Might be better to make the box underneath permanently attached, and build an access hole in the floor, so the belt could more freely angle forward or back, depending on the seat position.)

 

Edited August 1 by Eneto-55
additional comment

[Sam Buchanan]

Well.....that photo did spark an idea....why not have the retractor pretty much in the location shown but attached to a steel fitting that extends to the floor? I could make that work and satisfy attachment criteria with doublers under the floor. There would still need to be a loop above shoulder height on the door pillar to make this work with shoulder belts.

 

Thanks for the photo!

 

Edited August 1 by Sam Buchanan