New oil pump seized

[Marcel Backs]

Fired up my rebuilt 218 for the 1st time and  it was running real well with 35PSI oil pressure and then it quit.  I took the distributor cap off  and discovered the distributor was no longer turning, Took oil pump out and this brand new pump was seized and had a couple of teeth missing. What are the chances that the cam was damaged in the process? M

[Plymouthy Adams]

the pump gears are designed to shear in this case and the cam teeth are not...they very robust.....this is also not uncommon....have seen the very thing you have experienced....even with priming the pump this can happen and am sure nothing you did inasmuch as lube.....now as in the last case I was involved in, the pump was warrantied and thus I was not able to open the pump to see if it ingested anything that aided in the locking of the pump....had to return the pump unmolested.  As an added, ensure the cam gear has no broken teeth still in the cam gears...this would be an instant repeat of sheared gears.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Plymouthy Adams

[Marcel Backs]

The info you gave me has reduced the heart palpitations. I will remove the  oil pan and see if the teeth made their way down there. Is there any way to check for damage to the  cam once the pan is off.? Any preventative measures when installing the new pump? This has so far been a P in the cornflakes day  since the motor was firing flawlessly until the new oil pump catastrophe. To make matters worse my bleedin radiator sprung a leak. Daiquiris  on the porch may be in good order!

[Plymouthy Adams]

you can easily inspect the cam gear through the oil pump hole and dropping the pan could well be prudent...the likelihood of a broken tooth entering the oil pickup with the screen in place very slim.  Odds are you know the tooth count missing, a magnet could likely retrieve these through the drain plug.  Any broken remains of teeth compared to the portion missing from the gear on the pump.  And, at having another issue spring forth (no pun) you may wish to take a minute to compose before tackling.  Not suggesting alcohol mind ya, coffee works well for me, but a bit of the hair of the dog may be in order...don't consume the whole dog.  

[Marcel Backs]

Just a Chihuahua's worth! LOL Thanks for all the good advice PA!

[Sniper]

The Freewheeling Tony Smith goes thru a flathead pump, if you have facebook

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=5051082834912932&set=pb.100063489375749.-2207520000..

Edited July 21, 2022 by Sniper

[kencombs]

I think this is the third one of those I've heard of happening in the last 2-3 years.  I wonder if the are the new rotor style or the older gear type?   and what is the brand?  

In the small tractor world I used to deal in a lot, the most common cause of hydraulic pump failure was blockage of the output flow due to no or defective pressure relief valves.  Wondering if the same could be true with these?   Plunger stuck due to some unknown reason?

[Plymouthy Adams]

the ones I have seen and have described are mechanical locked up, sometimes it is trash in between the rotors....others is a mechanical seizure to poor tolerancing of the machined parts and lack of lube due to this.  Some unknown as have to be returned unmolested for warranty.

[Marcel Backs]

What was funny in my case, was that the oil pressure was 35 PSI and it ran flawlessly for about 7 minutes until the pump failed. Could it be the pump failed as the engine got hotter and seized due to expansion, indicative of improper tolerances during manufacture of the assembly? M

PS I molested my "new" oil pump and it was clean on the inside. It appears that the shaft seized. This was observed before I threw this fine assembly for a touchdown! LOL M

Edited July 21, 2022 by Marcel Backs

[Plymouthy Adams]

your experience mirrors the last one I am familar with in person....happened to a fellow forum member that is local to me....he called me for guidance...he actually at the time had not discovered the oil pump had siezed....that was found immediately when I got there...first go to item.  

[Marcel Backs]

Makes the hobby look like a game of chance LAME repoop parts and all! I am at an impasse on how to get a reliable oil pump which will not cause me to play a game of russian roulette with crucial parts which may be good or bad without the suppliers giving a damn while keeping their bottom line paramount.

[chris 48 P15]

the parts available for these cars sometimes are questionable

bought pcs from parts guy that did not fit right

as able to combine new parts with old parts to make it work

i feel it might be best to look at regular autoparts stores before going to specialty parts suppliers

maybe cheaper price for same or better parts if they have them

[James_Douglas]

I have gotten to the point when I buy parts like master or wheel cylinders, oil pumps and the like that I take them apart and check everything. I have had bad seals, machine swarf, and parts that had hairline cracks in them.

 

Do not trust any part assembly any more.

 

James

[Marcel Backs]

update on oil pump seizure: I took off the oil pan and had a look up at  the camshaft which looks unscathed with healthy teeth. I am trying to source a NOS oil pump from a auto parts store which has been around since 1925. I got lucky getting the proper 6v coil for my car there, so I may be lucky a 2nd time. It is fortunate that the oil pump gear was made with cheap scrap like the rest of the assembly and the missing bits found in the oil pan. WHEW!!!!!!

[Marcel Backs]

Looked at FW Tony's process on cleaning up a new oil pump. Pretty intensive for something that the manufacturer deemed useful. Thanks for the insights Sniper! M 

[JBNeal]

additional information - oil pump conditioning

[Matt Wilson]

On 7/24/2022 at 1:55 PM, Marcel Backs said:

update on oil pump seizure: I took off the oil pan and had a look up at  the camshaft which looks unscathed with healthy teeth. I am trying to source a NOS oil pump from a auto parts store which has been around since 1925. I got lucky getting the proper 6v coil for my car there, so I may be lucky a 2nd time. It is fortunate that the oil pump gear was made with cheap scrap like the rest of the assembly and the missing bits found in the oil pan. WHEW!!!!!!

I'm glad you didn't have any damaged teeth on the camshaft itself.  It might be true (or might not be true) that the oil pump gear is made of something inferior to the camshaft gear, but that's no guarantee that the camshaft teeth will be spared in the event of an oil pump seizure.  I read about one guy who found a couple of camshaft teeth that were missing some chunks after his pump seized.  I believe he spent some time dressing the edges of the damaged teeth and I believe he was able to continue using the camshaft.  Fortunately, luck was with you on this one, so you don't have to do that. 

 

It's just so extraordinarily aggravating that the companies making some of these aftermarket parts are cutting corners so terribly that these types of things are happening.  Across the various forums that I belong to, there have been NUMEROUS accounts of oil pump failures, due to shaft seizures.  When confronted with this, the manufacturer simply replies that it was the installer's fault, saying they must not have soaked the pump in oil thoroughly enough prior to installation, per the included instructions). That's despite virtually all of these installers (usually the vehicle owners) swearing that they did the proper soak.  The folks who own these vehicles are usually very conscientious about their vehicle maintenance and repair practices, and I have no doubt that most (probably all) of them used the proper procedure.  The fact that there's been a rash of these failures, which I think were previously unheard of, indicates pretty strongly that there's something up with the pumps themselves in recent years.

 

The good thing is that the failure of the pump teeth and/or camshaft teeth will result in loss of distributor drive, so the engine will stop running and no damage will be caused by loss of oil pressure.

[Dodgeb4ya]

Thank you China manufacturing.

[Marcel Backs]

I'd rater wait it out and get NOS parts. No more fattening  the pockets of purveyors of BIG RED GARBAGE DRAGON parts!  Way too bad Japan is not reproducing them and too bad north America is not producing too much anymore. We all need to cut off our dependence on  such a poor global citizen like  COMMUNIST china since they treat people as bad as the crap they pawn off on  our continent. M

[Matt Wilson]

1 hour ago, Marcel Backs said:

I'd rater wait it out and get NOS parts. No more fattening  the pockets of purveyors of BIG RED GARBAGE DRAGON parts!  Way too bad Japan is not reproducing them and too bad north America is not producing too much anymore. We all need to cut off our dependence on  such a poor global citizen like  COMMUNIST china since they treat people as bad as the crap they pawn off on  our continent. M

My understanding is that these faulty pumps are made here in the USA.  Some of our manufacturing has really gone downhill.

[Matt Wilson]

2 hours ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

Thank you China manufacturing.

Actually, you might be surprised to find that these faulty pumps were made here in the US.  If you look at the photos taken by Freewheeling Tony Smith (shared in JBNeal's post above), you'll see a couple of photos showing "made in USA."  One is on the box and one is on the pump cover.  Sad but true.

[Dodgeb4ya]

Lousy US manufacturing...

[Dodgeb4ya]

Not carefully taking apart the floating  oil pickup assembly and cleaning that assembly 100% spotless can wipe out the oil pump.

 

[Bob Riding]

In a recent thread @keithb7 suggested packing the oil pump with #105 motor assembly grease in lieu of dunking it in engine oil. Thoughts?

[keithb7]

Later in my In my video you’ll see that the grease packing method failed. I could not get pump to build oil pressure. I removed pump again and submerged it in oil. Got all bubbles out. Then it made great pressure at cranking speed.