Fuel pump?

[OUTFXD]

I removed Jacquilines fuel pump in preperation for rebuilding it.  fully expecting a glass fuel bowled piece I got this. complete with Torx head fasteners. 

 

1) what is it

 

and

 

2)  is it worth saving or should I find an original in rebuildable condition?

[Plymouthy Adams]

question is, was it in serviceable condition when you pulled it, if so and with proper technique in building and quality replacement parts...I don't foresee where there should be an issue.  I also do not see Torx screws but I do see what appears to be Phillips head.

[slatgrille]

My original pump failed and I bought a replacement from Bernbaum's in Mass. The only difference was my original didn't have a glass bowl either. The new one does. The only caveat' if you get a replacement, is to check the 'lever pin'. Mine was not 'peened' and worked its way out. I had to remove the pump to reset the pin. I ended up putting JB Weld over each end of the pin hole.

[Plymouthy Adams]

so I understand the one from Mass. failed at the pin....?   you providing more details now....but, stick with my original statement, right parts, right technique you will have a RIGHT pump.  

[soth122003]

I'm gonna guess right pump just bought a later date as a replacement for one that went bad. Looks exactly like the pump I pulled of mine when it went bad. Got a replacement from rock auto for about $65 and it had the glass bowl. By the late 60s early 70s the all inclusive gas station garage was becoming just the gas station due to EPA and state/federal regs to make the gas station and tanks cleaner, not leaking, and had sediment filters to make sure the gas was good that was being put into the cars. With crappy gas becoming a thing of the past the glass bowls were no longer necessary. I still remember buying gas at one indy station that had added water to it to sell cheap gas. They didn't last long.

 

 

Joe Lee

[desoto1939]

I prefer a FP with the glass bowel.  It does not matter how clean the gas is going into your gas taken. If there isa ny sedement in the tank, ust or any left over crap, then the glass bowel will permit it to sink to the bottom and then you will know when it needs to be cleaned.  Also prefer to has a glass bowel inline gas filter just before the carb for the same basic reason.

 

Rich Hartung

desoto1939@aol.com

[OUTFXD]

Once she is warm,  she starts when the first piston fires. Usually immediately.  In the morning, the engine would need to crank over 4 or 5 times before she fired.  with the on going starter issues It was even odds if I could get her to start in the morning before the starter refused to work.

 

Trying to Diagnose this I noticed that the clear fuel filter I installed between the Fuel pump and the carberator would fill and remain filled with operation, then be empty in the morning. Which leads me to believe the fuel is flowing backwards through the Fuel pump when at rest. giving me one of two scenarios, either there is a bad check ball in the fuel pump and the fuel is flowing back to the fuel tank. or, more probably to my mind,  There is a pinhole in the diaphragm and fuel is pissing into the oil.

 

I ordered a rebuild kit for the original fuel pump including Corn Syrup resistant parts and intended on doing a rebuild this weekend.

 

I just pulled the fuel pump today and was surprise (I probably shouldnt be at this point)  to find a modern replacement pump.  I am guessing the parts I ordered are not going to fit.

[OUTFXD]

2 hours ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

 I also do not see Torx screws but I do see what appears to be Phillips head.

 

Found around the ring along the edge of the diaphragm and also internally.  I was thinking they would date the fuel pump to the 1980s,  when I fact checked I was surprised to find Torx was copywritten in 1967.

Edited June 9, 2022 by OUTFXD

[Plymouthy Adams]

your first picture sure faked me out....not much detail in that pic..but in this pic, is that a yankee slot also in the screw head?  Yeah Torx has been around for a bit....the Air Force uses an Apex bit, they very special as well.

[slatgrille]

To Plymouth Adams post #4....the new fuel pump did not fail...I suspect whoever manufactured it did not properly 'swage (?)' the openings on either side of the pin allowing it to move laterally. I was 18 miles from home when it first happened. After being towed home, discovered the pin sticking out one side of the casting. It had moved enough past center that the diaphragm lever popped off. I was able to line everything up and drive the pin back through. I tried to burr the casting at each end to 'lock' the pin in place, but it managed to 'walk' itself' out again. I drove the car around for several days on short trips. Before heading to a car show last Sunday, I checked the pin again. Glad I did....it was sliding out again. This time I decided to JB Weld both ends of the casting hole. So far, so good.

 

I did contact Bernbaums letting them know of a possible manufacturing issue in production.

I hope I was able to clarify the situation I mentioned earlier. The fuel pump works just fine....when the pin stays in place!

 

Craig in Maine

[Sniper]

The pin issues has been well discussed on this site.  PA either forgot or wasn't paying attention.  In fact the rebuilt kits come with longer pins with retaining clips to address this issue.  Problem is poor QA by the manufacturer, which I guess is one now days.  Not AB or any other vendor.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Sniper

[Plymouthy Adams]

3 hours ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

so I understand the one from Mass. failed at the pin....?   you providing more details now....but, stick with my original statement, right parts, right technique you will have a RIGHT pump.  

 

8 minutes ago, Sniper said:

The pin issues has been well discussed on this site.  PA either forgot or wasn't paying attention.  In fact the rebuilt kits come with longer pins with retaining clips to address this issue.  Problem is poor QA by the manufacturer, which I guess is one now days.  Not AB or any other vendor.

Sniper, in case you failed to read....I mentioned the pump from Mass. (which is Bernbaum)...I just do not like using his name as he is in my opinion a waste of time to ever deal with....so I mentioned the state he is in.....I would burn my car before I would bernbaum it.

[JohnS48plm]

I had a fuel pump pin fall out years ago. I went to a hardware and found an allen head screw with a shoulder a little longer than the pin and a diameter the same as the pin. I installed it with washers and a locknut and never had the problem again.

[keithb7]

Isn't Then & Now Automotive also in Mass? Thanks for clarifying PA, that it wasn't them.  I have bought 2 fuel pump rebuild kits from Then & Now. Good products and service. Recommend.

 

There most certainly is an off-shore builder manufacturing these fuel pumps. Selling them new. I fail to understand why they'd sell so many with the fulcrum pin falling out. A very easy fix at the factory.  I had one of these infamous new fuel pumps. The pin fell out of mine too. Like it was built to do. Lol. I was stranded road-side briefly. I quickly installed a 6V pump that I had stored in the trunk. For exactly such an occasion. Later I tried swaging it. That didn't last very long either. Pin started walking out again. Later I loaded up both sides of the pump pin with JB Weld. That was 3 years ago. Not an issue since.

 

 

Edited June 9, 2022 by keithb7

[slatgrille]

Being new to this forum, I didn't realize this was discussed previously....also that there are 'issues' with the dealer in Newton, MA. Glad to know there is another place to get parts!

[FarmerJon]

When I rebuilt my pump I found that the pin supplied with my kit was significantly smaller than my original, .010 or so. I was able to reuse my original one, and staked it well to keep it from wandering.

 

OP, to believe the original, glass bowl pump is an AC 588, but you may find that yours is a Carter or other variant that isn't compatible with the AC rebuild kit.

[Sniper]

15 hours ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

 

Sniper, in case you failed to read....I mentioned the pump from Mass. (which is Bernbaum)...I just do not like using his name as he is in my opinion a waste of time to ever deal with....so I mentioned the state he is in.....I would burn my car before I would bernbaum it.

 

 

I knew who you were talking about.  Whatever your problem with Andy Bernbaum, I have had no issues with them and I have been buying from them since the 80's. 

 

Your implication that the pin backing out problem was AB's is wrong though.

[Los_Control]

I think the @FarmerJon nailed it with staking the pin .... nice twist with using the original pin if it is possible.

 

While I have never been adventurous enough to finish & drive my project. Over the years I have read about others with the pin backing out on new fuel pumps.

Staking it is the key.

 

I would like to try a analogy I think fits.

Many if not all auto parts stores sell champion spark plugs. There is only one manufacturer of Champion spark plugs.

Autozone or Napa has no quality control over Champion spark plugs.     They just sell the product they are provided with.

 

I bought my fuel pump from Napa, in reality I wonder who made it and put Napa name on the box?

We have very few vendors that sell flathead 6 parts, even fewer that manufacture flathead 6 parts for the vendors to sell ... We need to support them if we can.

 

[Plymouthy Adams]

6 hours ago, Sniper said:

 

 

I knew who you were talking about.  Whatever your problem with Andy Bernbaum, I have had no issues with them and I have been buying from them since the 80's. 

 

Your implication that the pin backing out problem was AB's is wrong though.

 

 

Sniper, again, you blew right by the question mark...I was merely trying to ask if the one he is rebuilding or the one from Mass failed at the pin.....I challenge you to show me anywhere that I stated Bernbaum is the only one with pump failures....I never mentioned anything about pins failing period...I again was trying to clarify which of his two pumps was failing at the pin......glad you have had a great relationship with the outfit.  I do wish I could say better about my parts order from the company.  The pump pin failure has been an ongoing issue for years and from many retailers.   As to who supplies the retailers, I have no clue.

[desoto1939]

For anyone that does not the History of AB's.  Andy did sell the business several years ago and the new owner is Chris.  Chris is not as experienced as Andy was. Yes Andy did have issues with his personality.

 

We all know that when taking over a business there are growing pains.  Yes chris has made some mistakes with parts but he has always welcomed the discussion about the part and is willing to take  them back and send the correct part. We all did not know everything about our flat head six. It took us several years to get the knowledge and skill set to be able to work on these cars.  Not everyone is a skilled ASE mechanic, some have learned just by trying to fix things others have been fortunate to have learned on the job or have worked with other owners that had the knowledge.  

 

I have been working on my 39 desoto for 35 years.  The other day i had two front drums turned. I guy I use is not cheap but is a very good mechanic. Before putting the drum into the drum cutter he took 5 lug bolts and screwed then as tight as possible into the brake drum. He explained that since our  hub and drum are riveted together you can not tellif these is any looseness between the two parts. By  screwing the drum back against the hub it keep everything tight and then if there is any looseness there might have been a bad cut and it might not be a good cut.

 

As not being a mechanic I would have never thought about this, but he took his time to show me and explain the process.  He did not learn this over night but his experience is what he was passing on to me.  All in All it is the knowledge that we all have and the process of passing that onto other less experienced members and car owners is what counts so all lets try to help each other when someone is having a problem.

 

Tks,

Rich HArtung

desoto1939@aol.com

[Bryan]

I thought most vendors just sell the parts and don't do the work themselves. Only issue I've had is the irritating website that uses 2 steps to get to "YOUR CAR". Then it gives an error message if you jump back a previous page.  Anyway, everybody stay calm. Maybe we can talk about Parts books instead? ?

[FarmerJon]

Yeah, their website is almost as intolerable as 'Dons mopars'. 

 

5 hours ago, desoto1939 said:

 

I have been working on my 39 desoto for 35 years.  The other day i had two front drums turned. I guy I use is not cheap but is a very good mechanic. Before putting the drum into the drum cutter he took 5 lug bolts and screwed then as tight as possible into the brake drum. He explained that since our  hub and drum are riveted together you can not tell if these is any looseness between the two parts. By  screwing the drum back against the hub it keep everything tight and then if there is any looseness there might have been a bad cut and it might not be a good cut.

 

Wow, just had some drums turned, this did not even cross my mind, but makes total sense!!

 

Terrell machine in Texas rebuilds fuel pumps, he was a pleasure to work with when he did my vacuum advance unit.  I have a fuel/vacuum pump I plan on sending him in the near future.

 

[desoto1939]

On 6/10/2022 at 4:40 PM, Bryan said:

I thought most vendors just sell the parts and don't do the work themselves. Only issue I've had is the irritating website that uses 2 steps to get to "YOUR CAR". Then it gives an error message if you jump back a previous page.  Anyway, everybody stay calm. Maybe we can talk about Parts books instead? ?

Bryon: is so correct about most parts vendors.  In all reality they do not produce any parts. If they are having parts made then they are farming out the work to some manufacturing company and most likely either China, India or other Asian country.  The parts are only going to be as good as tcan be to a reproduction part becsue they have to make an entire new mold of the item and since these are new casting they are not going to be as perfect as the original castings.  Yes we all have heard about the Airtex FP issue with the pin coming out, but this is not the sellers issue for AB or AutoZone or NAPA.  They can report the issue and hope that the distributor and then the manufacturer can get the issue resolved but blaming the issue on the reseller willnot fix the pbm.  All we can hope for is that we can get some quality products and sometimes getting an older or original FP like an AC 588 and then rebuild it ourselves will solve some issues.

 

If you have solutions to such issues then step up to the plate and provide the solution that you came up with. This helps all of the other car owners and is passing the knowledge down the road. This is what the hobby is all about, keeping the cars alive and running for our driving pleasure and to educate other people about this great older cars.  Most general public that goes to car show have no understanding about these older cars, all that they have been taught is about the first direct appearance of the big HEMI engines and how much HP they have and how fast they can go. They do not know the history of the automobile, just want to see all of the GLITZ and BLING.  When someone stops to look at you car talk about your car and how it played a major role in the advancement of the car industry, how MOPAr got involved inthe WWII effort and about the engineering in engines that MoPar had provided, such as having hardened vale seats back in the 1930 prior to the use of Ethanol gas and about the Airflow cars and how they had the unit body tube frame design for the car.  The history is important to teach the newbies so they can get interested.

 

Now off to the National Desoto Club convention and car show.  Wish me luck.

Rich Hartung

 

 

[sidevalvepete]

Good luck Rich...

[desoto1939]

17 minutes ago, sidevalvepete said:

Good luck Rich...

Thanks planning to drive out to Altoona from valley forge PA approx 225 miles each direction.

 

Rich Hartung