My 1951 Plymouth Concord Barn Find....what have i done?!

[Logans51]

Hello Everyone!

 

First before i get into the story, just want to say how amazing this community is for information and searching my endless amount of questions i have.  You all are awesome for helping like you do and it is much different than most automotive forums i have been apart of.

 

THE (LONG) STORY

 

As all car men/women do, i was doing my daily car search hunting for something.  My wife and I are expecting our first child come October and like my father did with me, i am on the hunt for something i can hopefully one day work on with the boy.  Normally my searches skew a bit newer because most historic cars i can afford where i live are either out of my price range or made mostly of rust and speed holes to bring back around.  I opened up my search and came across a 1951 Plymouth Concord business coupe that looked like it was dug out of the ground.  The more i looked at pictures and read the description, the more i found myself saying "you know, there might be something here with this one."  Luckily i was the first to see the listing and messaged immediately. 

 

The story is the gentlemen whom bought this car bought it from the original owner back in the 70's.  He drove it around for a while but like most car guys of that day, he had a lot of other cars he had collected over the years and eventually parked it in an enclosed garage/barn.  In the 90s, he brought it back out to make sure everything worked and to move it to a new garage/barn and there it would sit.  Sadly, the gentlemen passed away in 2018 and the family decided to sell off a few cars as they had no real attachment to them.  One was the 51 Plymouth.  After talking with the family and seeing the few phots, i hopped into my car and drove out there the next day.

 

From the photos, i was expecting this thing to be a flintstone model but after crawling all around and under it for a little over 2 hours, the only rust i found was a small 2"x4" hole right behind the door before the wheel well and the battery box/tray.  The hole behind the door had not gone into the floor at all so it "seems" like an easy patch.  All be it covered in a lot of surface rust and crud, there was not one trim or panel missing or out of place.  Not one pinhole i could find in the trunk or wells.  i was shocked. even the engine was all there along with a good amount of oil in it and what looked to be extremely cloth sparkplug wires.  

 

The family also told me at some point when he was still driving it around, someone saw the car and said they also had a Plymouth and had a complete flat 6 engine they were going to get rid of if he wanted to buy it.  The daughter said it was just a stock engine but the mother thought she remembered the husband saying something about it having more power.  Either or,  he was not someone to pass up a deal and said if i wanted it, it was mine because it was just taking up space.

 

At the moment, my plans are get it shipped to my garage and WASH/CLEAN IT!  After those first 2 important steps, hopefully to get her up and running and slowly bring it back to life.  With how original everything is I would love to keep it a survivor and hopefully one day teach my son about these cars and maybe pass it along.   I plan on keeping everyone updated and will have tons of questions moving forward.  To me, just being able to wash the 30+ years of crap off it might be worth it in my opinion. haha.

 

THE NEW GUY QUESTION

So my basic automotive history is my father and I worked on classic cars when i was growing up but nothing pre 65 and i have not touched one for 15 years i would say.  I still keep up with learning as it is my passion.  I know what i would consider the basics and enough to get me in trouble but would be considered a novice by probably most of you on the forum.  Because this car has been sitting so long, my biggest fear is doing more damage when starting it.  So my main question is....any advice on making sure its safe to try and start it?

 

Im thinking first obviously throw some mystery oil down the plug holes and hand crank the engine to see if its even free.  Next would be battery, oil change, check spark and wiring and the whole standard stuff.  I will also check and clean the carb but have a rebuild kit on order and will obviously not be using fuel from the tank.   I think my biggest concern is dry starting without priming the oil system.  I have seen people prime the system by taking a spare oil pump and shaving the teeth off of it to prime the system but is that the only way?  I do have a complete spare engine but would love not to do that if possible.

 

I really look forward to being a member of this forum and hopefully one day i will get to end this thread with a video of it running and driving.

 

-Logan

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tom Skinner]

Logans51,

Welcome to the Forum. I restored my most recent 1948 Chrysler Royal with my son in the last 14 years. It is a very rewarding process. Now for your most recent acquisition.

Everybody knows nobody wants cars from the 50's or 40's anymore, so, restoring this one should be a work of Love only, - with the caveat of - you will never get out of it what you put into it. So be careful how much work you farm out. Do it yourself. Even then it will only be a project of Love. Young people only want 60's and up muscle cars today. They bring the money. Like any collection it is the three legged Bar Stool. Condition, Rarity, and Demand. Without all three of these components the Bar Stool falls over.

Demand is just not there. Maybe some years hence, (and I might add I have been waiting with several old Mopars since 1973 and it still hasn't happened) these old buses will bring some money. Until then go slow, be frugal and raise your boy turning those wrenches. The time will fly by and you will wake up some day wondering where it went.

Enjoy the process, I did, my wife and I had our 2 kids (both United States Marine Sergeants) when we were 40 and 42. Now at 65 we miss them that they are not around.

They grow up so fast it will startle you. Good Luck buddy and stay on this forum with any questions you may have. Finer people you will never meet.

Tom 

 

[allbizz49]

Cool car, congrats. You're on the right track, clean it up, little mmo down the holes and see if she cranks. Get it running then tackle the brakes. You'll be driving it in no time. Good luck and have fun.

[Logans51]

35 minutes ago, Tom Skinner said:

Logans51,

Welcome to the Forum. I restored my most recent 1948 Chrysler Royal with my son in the last 14 years. It is a very rewarding process. Now for your most recent acquisition.

Everybody knows nobody wants cars from the 50's or 40's anymore, so, restoring this one should be a work of Love only, - with the caveat of - you will never get out of it what you put into it. So be careful how much work you farm out. Do it yourself. Even then it will only be a project of Love. Young people only want 60's and up muscle cars today. They bring the money. Like any collection it is the three legged Bar Stool. Condition, Rarity, and Demand. Without all three of these components the Bar Stool falls over.

Demand is just not there. Maybe some years hence, (and I might add I have been waiting with several old Mopars since 1973 and it still hasn't happened) these old buses will bring some money. Until then go slow, be frugal and raise your boy turning those wrenches. The time will fly by and you will wake up some day wondering where it went.

Enjoy the process, I did, my wife and I had our 2 kids (both United States Marine Sergeants) when we were 40 and 42. Now at 65 we miss them that they are not around.

They grow up so fast it will startle you. Good Luck buddy and stay on this forum with any questions you may have. Finer people you will never meet.

Tom 

 

 

 

Thanks Tom for the welcome and your 48 is beautiful.  This is by no way a quick flip or cash grab and a plan out it being here for quite some time.  Only thing i am looking to get out of it is learning as much as i can and hopefully pass something along to the next generation.  There is no timeline and having dealt with classic cars before, i am aware any timeline i make, i might as well times it by 10.   The only thing i would farm out would be the rust repair because i would want that done correctly by a professional. Rolling and properly patching is something i am not ashamed to say i know very little about.  This will truly be a labor of love and hopefully a family project.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Logans51

[Sniper]

Have a big fire extinguisher on hand and maybe install a battery quick disconnect just in case. 

 

I have a 51 Cambridge, so mechanically we have pretty much the same car.  Be happy to help where I can.

 

1 hour ago, Tom Skinner said:

They grow up so fast it will startle you.

 

That is a truism.  I have four of them and they all grew up so fast I can't believe it. 

[Booger]

your on the right track. MMO down the holes. Turn it over by hand a few times a day. Drain the tank. Put an in line fuel filter. Fresh battery Now try to bump it gently.

Have someone look for fuel leaks. Youve come to the right place. The Disciples of Chrysler. Take us for a spin

 

[joecoozie]

Here is a (minimal) step-by-step procedure to follow when trying to start a car that has not run in many years:

#1- Drop the oil pan and clean it out - it will probably have an inch of sludge in it

#2- Remove the spark plugs and squirt some WD-40/oil into each cylinder. Either clean or replace the spark plugs. 

#3- Turn the engine over BY HAND - this will assure that the lubricant will coat the cylinder walls.

#4- Remove the valve covers and clean out the sludge that sits in the oil "wells" -  And, get someone else to turn the engine over by hand, while you watch the valves/lifters. You may find that there are a couple of stuck valves

#5- Remove the distributor cap & rotor and either clean the points or replace them and the condenser. Also, check the cap and rotor - they may need to be cleaned or replaced. When cars sit these parts develop oxidation and need to be "cleaned" - or filed to remove the oxidation.

#6- As mentioned above - check coolant, hoses, belt, etc. You might want to lube the water pump, too.

#7- Run a remote gas tank with fresh gas connected to the fuel pump.

 

#8 - And most importantly - HAVE PATIENCE - DO NOT RUSH TO TRY AND START THE CAR WITHOUT TAKING, AT THE LEAST, THE ABOVE PRECAUTIONS.

YOU CAN DO A LOT OF DAMAGE BY JUST DROPPING A BATTERY IN AND CRANKING THE ENGINE......

 

[Tom Skinner]

Joecoozie,

Thank you for the useful advise. I just jumped on a soapbox without offering anything of substance - Thanks!

Tom

[knuckleharley]

Quote

Im thinking first obviously throw some mystery oil down the plug holes and hand crank the engine to see if its even free.  Next would be battery, oil change, check spark and wiring and the whole standard stuff.  I will also check and clean the carb but have a rebuild kit on order and will obviously not be using fuel from the tank.   I think my biggest concern is dry starting without priming the oil system.  I have seen people prime the system by taking a spare oil pump and shaving the teeth off of it to prime the system but is that the only way?  I do have a complete spare engine but would love not to do that if possible.

Close,but no cigar.

 

1:Blow ALL the dust and dirt off the top of the engine with compressed air.

 

2:Pull the plugs

 

3: Fill each cylinder to the top of the threads with Marvel Mystery Oil. You might want to thin it out with brake fluid to make it easier for it to flow past any stuck rings.

 

4:Go in the house,and since you are so pumped up,chase the wife around the house for a while. What you do when you catch her,is between you and her. 

 

5:Go back out into the garage the next day and look to see how much,if any oil has leaked down past the rings. Top them all off again, go back in the house and repeat the next day,and until all 6 cylinders have oil leaking past the rings.

 

Try to turn the engine over with the fan. IF it turns over,put a ratchet with a long handle on the socket on the crankshaft nut and turn it over several times. If not,fill any cylinders still stuck with a mixture of brake fluid to thin out the MM ,and keep repeating daily until it does turn over. You might have to put a little bit of "snatch/jerk" pressure on the ratchet or breaker bar to "shock it loose",but don't get carried away. You do NOT want to risk wringing the head off the crankshaft bolt.

 

You can also use the starter to "bump" the engine to unstick it. Just make sure "bumping" it is all you do.

 

Make REAL sure you drain the crankshaft and fill it with new,clean 30wt non-detergent oil before you try starting it.

 

Once you do fill the crankshaft,make sure the spark plugs are still out,and spin the engine over with the starter until you see oil pressure building up on the oil pressure dash gauge. Once this happens,put the plugs back in,grab a fire extinguisher,and try starting it.

 

BTW,if you haven't already done this before,remove the gas tank BEFORE trying to start it,and use a long hose and something like an outboard motor tank with gas in it to start the car. That old gas tank is going to be full of rust and water,and cause you nothing but trouble. Once you get the engine running,buy a new replacement gas tank and be done with it.

 

Go ahead and plan on buying a new/rebuilt fuel pump,and a new water pump also. Trust me on this. While you are at it,replace all the gas lines with the new copper/nickel gas lines,and replace the rubber gas hoses with new hoses that are rated for modern gas. Moden unleaded gas will eat the old rubber gas lines like acid.

 

BTW,don't even THINK about trying to drive it anywhere before completely rebuilding the brakes. You might get the old brakes to pump up,and even work. Right up to the time they don't,and the brake pedal goes to the floor.

 

Plan on new wheel cylinders,a new/rebuild master cylinder,and new brake lines (copper/nickel once again because they don't rust) and new brake hoses.

 

ALWAYS think "Safety first" because it protects both you and your investment.

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2021 by knuckleharley

[allbizz49]

Wouldn't hurt to drop the pan but no guarantees that there is sludge in your motor. I just resurrected a car that has been sitting since 87. Motor was spotless, had been rebuilt not too long before being parked. Still has crosshatch in the cylinders. You never know what someone has done before you, good or bad.

[Jerry Roberts]

If you see sludge under the valve side covers , there will be sludge in the pan . 

[knuckleharley]

4 minutes ago, Jerry Roberts said:

If you see sludge under the valve side covers , there will be sludge in the pan . 

It is a given these old engines are going to be full of sludge unless they have been rebuilt. They all used non-detergent oil back then,and was an even worse mixture than it is today.

 

Cars that were driving in rural areas tend to not be so gummed up because they ran long enough to get good and hot,but city cars that were driving only short distances and never really warmed up good tend to be seriously gummed up.

 

I don't worry about this when I start messing with a old car that has been sitting for years. First I worry about getting it unstuck and running so I can see if it holds good oil pressure and hear if there are any knocks or rattles. Once I know the engine to be good,I worry about dropping the pan and pulling the side plates to clean it out. Too much work to do initially to only find out  it has no oil pressure and knocks.

[Sniper]

8 minutes ago, Jerry Roberts said:

If you see sludge under the valve side covers , there will be sludge in the pan . 

The opposite isn't true though.  That core 230 I bought was real clean in the tappet area, but there was sludge in the pan, maybe a half inch, along with portions of #6 piston skirt,

 

Only way to know for sure is to drop the pan.

[knuckleharley]

3 minutes ago, Sniper said:

The opposite isn't true though.  That core 230 I bought was real clean in the tappet area, but there was sludge in the pan, maybe a half inch, along with portions of #6 piston skirt,

 

Only way to know for sure is to drop the pan.

BINGO! You just bought the car,so you have no freaking idea what,if anything is wrong with it. Once you find out the engine is good,drop the pan to clean it and the oil pump screen,and pull the side plates to clean that out.

 

Put 4 or 5 quarts of the cheapest modren 20 or 30 wt oil in the engine,start it up again,and let it run until it gets hot while keeping a VERY close eye on the oil pressure guage. 

 

Shut it down,and flush and repeat until the oil coming out is as clean as the oil you poured in there. That way you know you have gotten rid of all the sludge. Once this is done you can go ahead and fill it up with good quality 30wt non-detergent oil.

 

Unless of course you feel confident you got ALL the sludge out. If that is the case refill it with 30 wt high detergent modern oil.

 

Caution,do NOT just go ahead and pour modern high detergent oil in an old engine before cleaning it out. If you do,your oil pressure will drop to zero,and chances are you will end up having to drop and clean your oil pump,and flush your oil lines out. Not to mention having to change oil filters several times if you have one.

[JerseyHarold]

Welcome to the forum. Your car has great potential judging by the pictures you posted.  Being nearly rust-free is a major bonus.

I have a '51 Concord business coupe as well.  Mine hasn't run since 1973 and is composed of parts from about half a dozen cars and has badly rusted floors and rockers.  I'll get to it one of these days (or years...).

Don't hesitate to ask questions.  Someone always chimes in with an answer!

[Young Ed]

Only problem I see with that car is no back seat for the kid to ride in! Otherwise it sounds like a great project.

[Bryan G]

Something great about the unique naming of this website: any question you have, ANY question, just go to google and type "p15-d24" and whatever you want to know. There's very little that hasn't been covered. I've done countless such searches while resurrecting my car (which had been in mothballs long enough for the engine to be stuck.)

[chrysler1941]

13 hours ago, Bryan G said:

Something great about the unique naming of this website: any question you have, ANY question, just go to google and type "p15-d24" and whatever you want to know. There's very little that hasn't been covered. I've done countless such searches while resurrecting my car (which had been in mothballs long enough for the engine to be stuck.)

Here's a tip for faster search only on this website use "site". Let's say you want search fluid drive. Go to google and type

 

fluid drive site:https://p15-d24.com

 

You now see all topics with fluid drive for this site

[Logans51]

On 8/9/2021 at 6:46 PM, knuckleharley said:

 

 

 

 

 

Okay... so apparently i reached my limit of "likes" for the day because these responses and help is absolutely overwhelming and amazing.  Thank you all. Special shout out to knuckleharley because holy hell man....that is above and beyond what i was expecting and for you to take the time to write that (all of you) is humbling.  Thank you.

 

UPDATE

 

So yesterday the car was delivered to my families farm house and i got to look at it for the first time not covered in 30years of crap and up against a wall.  Im pretty sure I get why they say dont buy a car in low light, in a barn where you cant see it all, and have no history on it; because it was defiantly a punch in the gut after drinking it all in.  There is definitely rust and more than expected to say the least.  I had a suspicion that the captains side may need a small patch but the drinkers side definitely has the flintstone modification for sure along with the rocker/sill are toasty.  I got hit with the good ol licensee plates from the 70's under a lot of rubber mats but thats what i get for just jumping in.  Plus side i suppose is a few neat old license plates?

 

After seeing that and a few small areas in the trunk that will need some help, i wanted to just wash my hands of it.  Just a blow like that after all the stress of "what the hell am i doing?" to only get hit with that definitely took a toll.  I have never done massive body repair like that so seeing that is scary to say the least.  

 

So with my full day of moping yesterday in the 108 11 degree heat thinking "what the hell am i doing", it was my wife who kept saying "I dont understand why you are so upset.  You wanted a project car right?  Is this not what that means?  Whats the rush? Why dont you teach yourself how do do that work?  I would much rather see this in the garage with no floors for years vs some crap from the 1980s."  I know...she is amazing.

 

So after my wife put me in my place, i think it was decided to go at it one step at a time.  Lets get that engine going and see where we stand.

 

I will have weekends for the next few months to get this thing in "moving condition" so i can get it into my garage at home, so updates will be spread out and i will try and get some pictures soon!  it was just too hot and i was mentally exhausted to do so.

 

 

[Los_Control]

Looking forward to see more pics and progress.

3 hours ago, Logans51 said:

I have never done massive body repair like that so seeing that is scary to say the least.

I know the feeling. I once had a 1951 suburban station wagon given to me with same issue. No rust on the exterior rocker, but inner rocker and floor was rusted away and nothing left for the A pillar to attach to .... open the passenger door and it drooped down 5" ... I thought then that it was too far gone for me to fix. Would be a challenge for me today. While others just look at it and shrug ... just work get busy and get er did.

I think often this issue is caused from the cowl vent gasket leaking, water runs in on the floor. Kinda a common issue for these old cars.

My truck floor needs to be replaced because of this.

 

I'm just thinking you want to do the rocker first. Get the metal replaced and A pillar attached with door opening/closing. Now you have some good metal to attach the new floor section to.

 

I have no idea if you can find replacement patch panels for your car. If you can awesome ... if not don't sweat it.  Post a link to a video to make a tool you can bend curves in sheet metal ... or make your own rocker from scratch. You do not need expensive professional tools to bend metal. I used this idea and made a smaller 3' long version that can clamp into my vise.  I do not have a sheet metal brake to bend angles. I have angle iron that bolts in place on this contraption and can bend a straight edge.

I clamp the metal in place. Then add my weight to it and start bending it, then tap it with a hammer on the straight edge ...YES IT IS SLOW!

If you are just making a item for your car, just take your time and enjoy the journey.

Can't find floor replacement panels to fit your car? Buy some panels for a different model, Ford Dodge, Chebby ... who cares. Just find what you need and cut out the sections and weld in place.

You can take a scrap piece of metal, tack weld a piece of 1/2" pipe on it. Lay it in your concrete driveway and attack it with a hammer and bend the metal around the pipe.

This will stiffen the metal adding strength, you may need to do it 3 or 4 times using different lengths of pipe in different locations.

I know it sounds stupid crazy. The metal is so bent up when finished. Then you put it across your anvil and straighten it out. I am cheap and use a wood stump.

In the end you will use some seam sealer over it and throw a mat or carpet on it ... nobody is looking.

 

Just do not get overwhelmed from the process. Sometimes you stop and make a tool to get you further. Life is a journey.  If you are not having fun, then you are doing life wrong.

 

 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Los_Control

[desoto1939]

Logans51:  I feel your pain also. BUT, I also see this same thing happening to potential antique car owners.  They think that there will be lots of reproduction parts available for no matter what car and or what year they purchase.  Sorry but not true.

 

A lot of people purchase what is known as  A DIAMOND in the Rough, which means there is a lot of body work, rust out, engine rebuild, interior, painting, glass, trans and rear end rebuild, chrome plating and the list goes on and on.

 

They get the car out of the barn after they purchased the car or its put on the rollback and delivered to their home. Now the car is out of the dark barn and you get to see the true condition of the car/truck  and they get that sinking feeling in their stomach.

 

I am not putting you down for your purchase.  The big questions is if you have the time to invest to do a complete restoration, the funds, purchasing the required tools and hope you have some good friends that can help in these fix it areas and the real most important is the cash outlay.

 

So the best advise is to really take a full assetment of the situation write down what needs to be done put a dollar figure to each thing and then add about 20% more to that cost.  Add up all the potential costs because it is based on todays dollar figures and then add more because of the extra time needed to finish the project.

 

OK, so after reading the above, the next time going to look for a car or truck, consider buying one that is already done and is a good driver.  You can then immediatley enjoy the car/truck and then make refinements as you go along.  What happens in your case if that you lose interest and then you have a harder time getting rid of the car becasue the next potential owner is in the same boat and then realizes they are over their head and do not purchase the car.

 

Also suggest for the next car if there is one do a lot of leg work on that specific model to understand if it pays to restore the car or not.

 

Again this not trying to put you down or anything like that, I am trying to provide you with some direction and fore thought.

 

Rich Hartung

[Sniper]

the Plymouth Doctor makes a lot of the sheet metal you might need.

 

http://plydr.tgie-greyhounds.org/

[Los_Control]

Just now, desoto1939 said:

am not putting you down for your purchase.  The big questions is if you have the time to invest to do a complete restoration, the funds, purchasing the required tools and hope you have some good friends that can help in these fix it areas and the real most important is the cash outlay.

 

@Logans51 this is your decision. @desoto1939is correct in restoring a car. They have great information and does great work.

 

We are talking about your first project car. Are you trying to build a concourse restoration for shows? ... or something to drive to enjoy.

 

 

With my truck I am just building it good enough to drive the piss out of it. When I die I do not care what the next owner does.

The next owner can build a complete floor pan and make it look original ... I do not care.

 

Just saying with a very first project car, probably not a great idea to build a show car.

But you can build a car that is fun to drive and nobody cares ... just build it solid & safe.  Just have fun.

So we go from low level do it yourself to high end build a show car .... just build what you want. It is your car and build it your way.

 

@sniper my wife told me in very few words we are driving to San Angelo tomorrow. Just for the drive and shopping.

 

 

 

[JerseyHarold]

Repro floor and rockers are available from a couple of sources.  Price and quality vary.  In the old days, they even made outside trunk corner patch panels and 'dogleg' panels for the 4-door sedans (not applicable in your case).

 

I suggest you make sure you have a good title for the car before spending any money on it.  Depending on your state it may be relatively easy to correct missing paperwork or nearly impossible (for example, in Pennsylvania plan on hiring a lawyer and going to court if you need a title created).

 

Hope this helps,

Harold

 

 

[Sniper]

9 minutes ago, Los_Control said:

@sniper my wife told me in very few words we are driving to San Angelo tomorrow. Just for the drive and shopping.

 

Welcome. I might even be home tomorrow.  Now that I said that stuff will hit the fan in Van Horn or some other godforsaken part of west Texas and I'll be on the road.