Help! Where to Stop? 1951 Dodge P/U Restoration

[Plymouthy Adams]

19 hours ago, Merle Coggins said:

 

Doesn't your wife have a connection to Superior, WI? It's nice up there too. 

Merle, good memory...yes she graduated college in Superior WI.   Her parents lived in Lake Geneva and has siblings all about the area of Lake Geneva, her brother still operates a business founded by the family many years ago in Lake Geneva.  

[Julie]

On 7/26/2021 at 10:54 AM, Brent B3B said:

Brent, do you know if this is the correct hood ornament for the '52? I read another thread on here about hood ornaments and my head is exploding.

PN 1456249

https://www.ebay.com/itm/334053829972?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=334053829972&targetid=1263094004786&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9011798&poi=&campaignid=11755693395&mkgroupid=122298874797&rlsatarget=aud-622027676548:pla-1263094004786&abcId=9300462&merchantid=113690498&gclid=CjwKCAjwuvmHBhAxEiwAWAYj-EMevi9rr1H592SN8BzG9If4BJRgxzTyn-nTLyXVMV3Dxcwzvi9hERoCh-oQAvD_BwE

 

 

 

Welcome Julie! 51 or 52?

I’ve never “restored” a truck, so take it for what it’s worth. ?

I would make it safe and enjoy what you have.

 

LOL, But at minimum get the correct steering wheel and a horn ring ? 

 

well said on the resale JB

 

Edited July 27, 2021 by Julie

[Merle Coggins]

4 hours ago, Julie said:

LOL, thank you for translation!! I am trying to have a sense of humor about this right along now. I have gotten a lot of insight from you guys on here and I did drop him a note gently asking for a number (translation: in order to make the funds available), which I would hope would be inspiring. Agree it's a good looking truck and thank you very much. I am dying to drive it soon with the right hood ornament and steering wheel!!

 

I can be in Cottage Grove in under 2 hours if you need me to rough 'em up a bit... ?

 

Just kidding, I'm not that kind of guy. But we got your back. We want to see that truck back on the road too.  

[Julie]

3 minutes ago, Merle Coggins said:

LOL. No! Please don't rough him up until he puts my truck back together. They are actually two brothers and they are generally super nice. I honestly just think it's a case of the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Literally!! I wrote this a.m. taking your advice to ask for the hard quote two ways, with and without the body work. Stay tuned!

 

I can be in Cottage Grove in under 2 hours if you need me to rough 'em up a bit... ?

 

Just kidding, I'm not that kind of guy. But we got your back. We want to see that truck back on the road too.  

 

[Brent B3B]

9 hours ago, Julie said:

 

past, I know of a guy who, who knew a guy, whom had a ornament..... LOL

 

1097255

[wagoneer]

On 7/26/2021 at 8:36 PM, Julie said:

Thank you!! I am going to ask for both formally by email, along with a detailed checklist of what's been completed (per the invoices) and what I would ideally like costed out. I've asked several times verbally and by text. Latest response, by text: "Very hard to estimate complete builds as so much changes as we go along. But I'm certainly willing to discuss anything you or he have questions about."  

 

?

Stay tuned.

 

 

 

Maybe that is a sign that you need to say thank you very much for the work, and take it home to marinate a bit on how much you like it so far and what else, if anything, you may want to take to SOMEONE ELSE.

 

on more open ended builds, I have had a shop say to me - we take pictures and get approval every $2,000 to set expectations and not surprise customers. 
 

complete rebuilds can quickly go to $60k and much higher depending on the detail of work. 
 

if you want body work and paint, expect another 10k at least. That is also the kind of work other shops can do as well as upholstery. 
 

A bit of space from this shop will give you perspective and their underestimate reflects poor businesss practice . 
 

a detailed invoice of hours and parts cost is warranted and normal, so please don’t let the shop make  you think or feel  like you are asking them anything extraordinary. 

[Julie]

6 hours ago, Brent B3B said:

OMG thank you soooo much. I don't think any 14 numbers have ever made me happier. And I think they have one on ebay!! https://www.ebay.com/itm/194209094595?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=194209094595&targetid=1263433206214&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9011798&poi=&campaignid=11755690449&mkgroupid=122298872397&rlsatarget=aud-622027676548:pla-1263433206214&abcId=9300462&merchantid=6296724&gclid=Cj0KCQjw3f6HBhDHARIsAD_i3D-yTbRIzx3jTm0jy4jTjT8PxChRc9r9Kvx9eugNTK86h3SafmyIcoQaAmd3EALw_wcB
past, I know of a guy who, who knew a guy, whom had a ornament..... LOL

 

1097255

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Julie

[48Dodger]

Yep....that's your ornament, and a good price to boot.

 

Looks like the front bolt broke off in the deal there.

Take it to a Engine Machine shop and they'll clean it out for you.

Or maybe you get lucky and its not stuck in there to tight.

 

48D

 

Side note:    Turn signals were available for certain models going back before the 50's.

                     The mandate (law) was in 1955. The signals you have are aftermarket for the 1950's....maybe not the lens.

                      So....feel free to play around with your signal deal cuz what you have isn't factory.

                       I always take the signals off the top of the front fenders, and use the running lights  on the nose piece as the turn signals.

                      The Signal Stat 900 Sigflare is common (you might have one already), and older year turn signal/brake light brackets.

                       Use to be pre 1955 trucks had one light for brake indication, so finding a passenger side bracket was tough. Now they are made

                       for both sides. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by 48Dodger

[CO54]

Julie, 

Welcome, and nice looking truck. 

[Julie]

Hi there, thank you and thank you!! I am a lil in love with it myself. Oh the drama, though!!

[Julie]

3 hours ago, 48Dodger said:

Ugh, always a catch. Or maybe I will get lucky. I could use a little luck right now!!

 

Yep....that's your ornament, and a good price to boot.

 

Looks like the front bolt broke off in the deal there.

Take it to a Engine Machine shop and they'll clean it out for you.

Or maybe you get lucky and its not stuck in there to tight.

 

48D

 

Side note:    Turn signals were available for certain models going back before the 50's.

                     The mandate (law) was in 1955. The signals you have are aftermarket for the 1950's....maybe not the lens.

                      So....feel free to play around with your signal deal cuz what you have isn't factory.

                       I always take the signals off the top of the front fenders, and use the running lights  on the nose piece as the turn signals.

                      The Signal Stat 900 Sigflare is common (you might have one already), and older year turn signal/brake light brackets.

                       Use to be pre 1955 trucks had one light for brake indication, so finding a passenger side bracket was tough. Now they are made

                       for both sides. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Julie]

8 hours ago, wagoneer said:

 

 

Quote

So I took your advice (and pretty much everybody else's on here) and let them know I would be finishing the build with another shop. Now all I have to do is find one if you know any!! I am thinking I would like to keep it in the same general area or thereabouts so I'm not dragging it around the country on a trailer. Looking for recommendations, or maybe that's another thread. Oh, and also I need to convince these guys to return my truck to the running/driving condition I gave it to them in without breaking the bank. Right now I believe it's in about 10,000 pieces. Sigh.

 

Maybe that is a sign that you need to say thank you very much for the work, and take it home to marinate a bit on how much you like it so far and what else, if anything, you may want to take to SOMEONE ELSE.

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Julie

[JBNeal]

I am not sure your strategy so far will net the results that you are looking for...getting work done remotely has the biggest pitfall of not being able to follow-up on progress in person, then ya get put over a barrel with an open ended project and a lack of knowledge about the project, then ya shoot yourself in the foot by informing the first shop that you are changing to another shop without a concrete idea of just where they are in their build progress, which de-incentivizes them to do any quality work if they know the revenue stream has dried up.  Without straying too far OT, one of my projects that I scooped up years ago was someone else's build who hired a retired mechanic to fix up this old truck he'd found on Craigslist, mechanic completely tore it apart, stripped all paint, coronary, pushing up daisies, widow told owner to come get the piles of parts or it was all going to scrap...and this was a driving truck that needed new paint and an engine overhaul, not a basket case.  So much stuff was missing that it is just a donor now for another project.

 

Unfortunately, I think you are going to have to pay them to assemble it just so you can have some comparison with pictures you have.  If things are missing or not working any longer, deduct from the final tally.  Unless these guys are boy scouts, ya cannot rely on their honor to return your project intact, as I think they saw ya coming when they took the key from ya and whatever $$$ ya gave'm to get started.  These kinds of projects need timelines to follow so that delays can be dealt with and $$$ dispensed when certain accomplishments are made, with some kind of escape clause to deal with roadblocks or budget overruns or unwillingness to complete the project in a timely manner. 

 

I know this is not welcome news, but you will have to tread carefully and prudently in order to recoup a substantial portion of your investment.  This is a business transaction and it needs to be dealt with in a business like manner, as these guys you have been dealing with have you at a disadvantage and they know it.

 

One way to look at paying too much for something like this is to accept the overage as a Learning Tax...ya learned something, it cost something, ya try not to repeat the events that led to the tax being levied, and move forward...

[Julie]

Hi JB,

 

This is all super helpful, and defo appreciated. I am still struggling as to how to effectively use this site let alone do a major custom build, so bear with me!!

 

I am not sure your strategy so far will net the results that you are looking for...getting work done remotely has the biggest pitfall of not being able to follow-up on progress in person, then ya get put over a barrel with an open ended project and a lack of knowledge about the project, then ya shoot yourself in the foot by informing the first shop that you are changing to another shop without a concrete idea of just where they are in their build progress, which de-incentivizes them to do any quality work if they know the revenue stream has dried up. 

 

True that and spot on!! But also not exactly so. I gave a very specific list of what I wanted quoted (or at least estimated) for completion, and this was met only now after three-plus years with a flat out nope. I continue to assert that upfront, I said, look this is how much I have to invest, what can we accomplish with this figure?

 

Without straying too far OT, one of my projects that I scooped up years ago was someone else's build who hired a retired mechanic to fix up this old truck he'd found on Craigslist, mechanic completely tore it apart, stripped all paint, coronary, pushing up daisies, widow told owner to come get the piles of parts or it was all going to scrap...and this was a driving truck that needed new paint and an engine overhaul, not a basket case.  So much stuff was missing that it is just a donor now for another project.

 

Wow. Sad. Learning curve but still.

 

Unfortunately, I think you are going to have to pay them to assemble it just so you can have some comparison with pictures you have.  If things are missing or not working any longer, deduct from the final tally.  Unless these guys are boy scouts, ya cannot rely on their honor to return your project intact, as I think they saw ya coming when they took the key from ya and whatever $$$ ya gave'm to get started. 

 

Not boy scouts to my knowledge, but also not asshats!! 

 

These kinds of projects need timelines to follow so that delays can be dealt with and $$$ dispensed when certain accomplishments are made, with some kind of escape clause to deal with roadblocks or budget overruns or unwillingness to complete the project in a timely manner. 

 

Yes, this does sound like my best route. You are a pure genius!! Where were you in the beginning (middle and end)?? Lol.

 

I know this is not welcome news, but you will have to tread carefully and prudently in order to recoup a substantial portion of your investment.  This is a business transaction and it needs to be dealt with in a business like manner, as these guys you have been dealing with have you at a disadvantage and they know it.

 

Again, agreed. Perceptive and spot on. It's welcome news in the sense that it's accurate!! 

 

One way to look at paying too much for something like this is to accept the overage as a Learning Tax...ya learned something, it cost something, ya try not to repeat the events that led to the tax being levied, and move forward...

 

Learning tax, love that idea, you know except when it's my turn to pay!! Meanwhile, thanks a mill for your thoughts on all this. Beyond grateful.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Julie

[ggdad1951]

Honestly, if Merle would be willing to swing by the shop and get eyes on it, might not be a bad idea.....too much up in the air IMO.  Gotta keep remote workers honest somehow.

[JBNeal]

Make no mistake, I've paid my share in the Learning Tax (although I refer to it with more colorful terminology in private, such as D-A Penalty).  This is all accumulated knowledge from decades of engineering experience in R&D, construction and medium- to heavy-manufacturing, something that gets know-it-alls all riled up when I talk circles around them or use their own words to point out their mistakes.  Those sectors of the economy are prone to all kinds of delays, roadblocks, cost overruns, technology deficiencies, and mission creep.  I once had a much delayed project finally leave the shipping dock only to be held up in customs by Hurricane Katrina, and our European customers could not wrap their purty li'l heads around how big a problem that "little storm" was...anyways, it sounds like ya might need to take a field trip to give them fellas a good talkin-to, or at least arrange for a local proxy with some project knowledge to act as your agent to get that show on the road.  As for project management, it's imperative to define the scope of work, timeline for completion, financial budget limits and incentives, and in this case, arrangement for return of property.

 

If ya haven't done so, ya might need to invest in what we refer to as Bunn's Bible:

https://www.amazon.com/Dodge-Trucks-Restorers-Collectors-Reference/dp/1583880879

Don Bunn published several books regarding the Pilot-House trucks.  Some of the minor details have been called into question over the years, but they are chock full of information that can be relied upon as being accurately published.

 

additional information - Pilot-House Knowledge

[Julie]

11 hours ago, ggdad1951 said:

Thank you so much , guys, and agreed. Merle, can we chat offline?

I'm just so super disappointed right now and don't know where else to turn. Trying desperately to get this thing back on track. I love my Dodge and you guys are the greatest! Wish I'd joined this forum three+ years ago!!

 

Honestly, if Merle would be willing to swing by the shop and get eyes on it, might not be a bad idea.....too much up in the air IMO.  Gotta keep remote workers honest somehow.

 

Edited July 29, 2021 by Julie

[Merle Coggins]

8 hours ago, Julie said:

... Merle, can we chat offline?

 

Just sent me a message with the Private Message feature of the forum. 

[Tooljunkie]

Beautiful truck. I hope it gets the attention it deserves. 
 

now im not a builder by any means, but im a self employed mechanic. $20,000 can be burned up pretty quick depending labour rates. Difficulty disassembling,locating parts, expensive parts and repairing parts that are difficult to obtain. 
meeting expectations and budget are very far apart in my opinion. 
i have 500 hours into my truck, and not one speck of bodywork has been done. Used and reconditioned parts and very little done to the interior. 
start modifying for modern engines,steering, suspension and brakes and the hours fly by. 
electrical, thats another can of worms. And could stretch past $2,000 to make it perfect. 
 

if i got my regular shop rate, my 51 would be at the 40,000 dollar mark at this point. No paint no interior. No way i would ever have the heart to charge that amount. If i got $30/hr i would be happy with that. 
 

The advice posted from other members is great, and i hope you can get the project completed to meet your expectations without doubling your budget. 

[Julie]

8 hours ago, Julie said:

Thank you for that, all of this is so helpful but I think I arrived too late at the party. I have no problem with the hourly, $65/hr. in Jan. 18 when we started and went up to $70 this past year, it would be lots more in L.A. or Orlando, which is why I left it in WI. I am way over the body work and don't even want it any more, I was going to paint it the same color anyway and patina is kind of cooler anyway. Minimal rust (on the driver side running board) and no dents or scratches. My problem (aside from the $$) is with the communications, and to put it bluntly being constantly lied to about pretty much everything. I have alternately been ignored completely, one time for nearly a year, and this was when I was still living in the area. When I asked for a hard quote on completion costs after surpassing a written budget, I was told a flat no, denied there ever was a budget, written or otherwise (I had attached it to the email, so go figure), and sent a second billing (for labor only, no part!s) totaling $4066  inside the span of the last 3 weeks. He now claims that he and only he can reassemble, and again, for whatever it is he feels like charging and whenever it is he feels like delivering. Had it since Jan 2018. Seriously, wth?

 

Edited July 29, 2021 by Julie

[dcotant]

Merle, if you do end up swinging by the shop, and you want company, I am even closer to Cottage Grove and would join you if I am in town.

[wagoneer]

2 hours ago, Julie said:

 

 

Situations like this end up in court usually, and maybe even small claims court. Recommend documenting everything (all communication, pictures, timeline of events). 

 

Seems to me that trust with this mechanic is gone, and depending on him to put it together back again in good working order with warranty is unlikely to end well.

 

1. Find an alternate shop that you can trust and will put your build together. Call up every place in town or nearby towns and get some quotes, or even close to your home. You need shops that specialize in restoration so they know how to work on older cars.  

 

2. Expect at least $10k if not more from other shops, though I think the total should be no more than $5k. 

 

3. Settle on an amount (not the one billed) with this shop, and I would say 1/2 to max 2/3 the bill, and settle it, or threaten to take him to small claims court for any number of reasons (see below) the least of which is defrauding you based on false estimates. 

Learn All About the Law for Suing a Car Repair Shop [Pro Tips] (donotpay.com)

 

Erroneous estimates is a reason to sue, and you may need to do some more internet digging for what Wisconsin provides. 

 

 He may choose to make an alternate offer that includes putting it back together on a hard timeline. Not sure I would take that.  

 

A good mechanic (assuming nothing really mechanically needs fixing since you got new motor, etc), should be able to put together everything in 30 hours max.

 

~40 hours (1 week) * $100/hour should be no more than $5,000 given some minor things that invariably crop up and taxes. That is an upper estimate, in my mind. 

 

At their rate ($70/hour) shouldn't be more than $2-$3k max, and I would start with $1,200 for pure labor and put it together.

 

 

 

4. The reality is the vehicle itself is not worth more than $15k (max), and in parts, it's worth about $3k-$5k (sentimental reasons aside that do give it much more meaning and personal value).  $20k should have kept it in one piece at least.

 

Transporting the vehicle costs too - ~$2,000 cross country by transport. 

 

5. Expect to wait. You've unfortunately waited 3 years, and that is a hell of a long time indicating your build was low priority, as well as they were figuring it out as they go. 

 

6. Consider fixing it yourself - pack it up and bring it home to your own garage. You can join us here on the forum, pick up some tools, and one piece at a time put it all together, while farming some of the work out to local mechanics. 

 

Net:

 

He has the the vehicle and (unfortunately) it is in parts (though it's not clear how many).  This shop in question is certainly NOT the only mechanic to be able to put the truck back together as a forum of amateur mechanics is doing it in their spare time , but it will cost you money.

 

Find a new shop and shop around, but if you can negotiate a close to this situation for a fixed rate and fixed timeline with the alternative being court. 

 

Put reviews in Google/Yelp/BBB once this whole thing is settled. 

 

 

 

Frankly, not a good situation, altogether, but salvageable.  You may consider buying a working truck and using yours as a parts truck...

 

One thing that caught my eye in the early pictures was the engine laying on the floor - a v8. Did the mechanic swap the flathead for a v8 of some sort with a new tranny?

 

 

Edited July 29, 2021 by wagoneer

[Julie]

12 minutes ago, wagoneer said:

This is all super helpful, thank you so very, very much for walking me through. I feel so much better weighing through the options.

 

One thing that caught my eye in the early pictures was the engine laying on the floor - a v8. Did the mechanic swap the flathead for a v8 of some sort with a new tranny?

 

An engine swap out bought from Jegs, cost about $4k as I recall.  Transmission was re-built, brakes, fuel injection, electric, suspension. Nothing cosmetic, which is actually all I ever really wanted. I came in saying, literally, what can we do for $20K? I'm looking for safety and pretty. I have this in writing in numerous exchanges over these many years. I screen shotted them and re-sent them and he STILL denies their existence. Says a build of this size (what build? what size?) could never be done for $20K, without or without body work, which I also never asked for, btw. I brought it in running and driving and paid $7,250 for it. I have never restored a vehicle before but I have reno'd three 1920's houses (with contractors) and always end up project managing because I think like a producer (and teach film production). So I'm really good with timelines, schedules, budgets and don't mind doing it for them to get what I want. This one will have none of it. Honestly, we have never had a word of previous conflict before these last few days, and only because he went over the budget, showed no signs of stopping, and sought to re-write our entire history. I have never met a poorer or more reluctant communicator. Is now and has always held all the cards. Is telling me it is nearly impossible to deliver prior to reassembly and I can count on anyone (but presumably him, which is ironic) to lowball a quote to get me into their shop and blow it out later.

 

Thank all you guys for listening to my rant!! You have been very helpful. Much, much appreciated.

 

 

 

[Julie]

1 hour ago, dcotant said:

Merle, if you do end up swinging by the shop, and you want company, I am even closer to Cottage Grove and would join you if I am in town.

This is incredibly generous of you. Love Mt. Horeb and especially your trolls (which I guess means something else entirely on the internet! LOL. If it means anything at all to you guys, he is inviting my "car club pals" to weigh in any time. 

[wagoneer]

56 minutes ago, Julie said:

 

 

 

Hi Julie,

  This explains some of the complexity that others on the forum can detail better than I can for sure, as there are certainly those who have done a chevy conversion.

 

   Changing the engine to an unspecified Jegs engine ($4k might be an LS Swap) with associated tranny would necessitate changes to the mounts, drive shaft, tranny tunnel mods, steering, possibly axle, and other assorted bits and pieces.

 

  Wondering why this even necessitated an engine Swap? A good rebuild would have been $2500 and dropped right back in. A/C Could have been added ($1500), even a 12v conversion could have been easily done - $1500. Power steering - $1200, Front Disc brakes $2000 --  (parts only) plus labor. 

 

   Frankly this sounds like a lot of messy technical issues potentially, including the need to do further fabrication. The original estimate described adding air conditioning... which I don't see in the one picture you indicated and would be attached to the engine. 

 

 The cab is bare so all interior work would need to be done. This sounds like the mechanic bit off too much or could be his "chevy hammer" and every car his chevy nail. 

 

   You will need a clear picture of what has and has not been done, and what state it's in right now when talking to other mechanics.

 

We are now all in your superficially invested in your tragedy, so any description of the state or work done would be helpful for perspective on work .

 

Also knowledge about whether the original engine/transmission are still around, as that could be a possible route forward.