Do you get what you pay for?

[harmony]

2 hours ago, Sniper said:

 

Exactly, years ago I used to work in an semiconductor R&D plant keeping their machines running.  One machine had a high speed spinner that would need the bearings replaced about twice a year  The machine maker's rebuild kit was like $1500 that consisted of two bearings, a few wave washers and some snap rings.  When to the local bearing house and not only was I able to duplicate the kit for under $100, but they worked with me on a high speed version of the bearing that lasted much longer.  Time down was money lost as they say.  If you live anywhere near Ag country there is a good bearing house nearby and they should be able to handle matching the seals up too.

I don't mean to knit pick your advice but in my case the seals are still in the car and functioning ok, but they are showing signs of starting to leak so I want to get them before I need them.  The last think I want to do is pull them out and then have the car non-functional while I try and find replacement seals.  

[Sniper]

Not nitpicking, a valid point you made.

 

However, consider this, what if the seals you are sent are wrong and you don't find out about it till you pull the old ones out?  At least by taking the old seals to a bearing house you can get the right ones and they may very well be on the shelf.  Just something to think about.  

 

In any case, this is just an option, regardless of which bearing or seal you may be replacing.  Been more than once that the parts book/computer number is wrong and having the old part in hand when buying the new one has saved me, the Dorman oil pan drain plug for my 51 comes to mind.  

[Sniper]

15 minutes ago, Booger said:

few people possess the mechanical skills you do, Sniper.. simple to see. as for me I can wrench..Im no Mechanic.. but coming here and sharing the wealth of knowledge is awesome! Learning from some of the best, new and old. I know the newbies dig it.  I sure do after 50 yrs of Flatties.Where else do you find this info? thanks for sharing, everyone

 

I appreciate the compliments, but lots of it was hard learned.  Some of the things I learned was that patience is indeed a virtue and cheap parts cost more than quality parts in the long run (as in a lifetime warranty means you'll spend the rest of your life replacing it, lol). 

 

Sometimes I get overwhelmed when I look at a project in it's entirety and all that is involved in it,  so I put it on hold till I can break it down in my head to small sections easily completed.  That helps.

[harmony]

28 minutes ago, Sniper said:

Not nitpicking, a valid point you made.

 

However, consider this, what if the seals you are sent are wrong and you don't find out about it till you pull the old ones out?  At least by taking the old seals to a bearing house you can get the right ones and they may very well be on the shelf.  Just something to think about.  

 

In any case, this is just an option, regardless of which bearing or seal you may be replacing.  Been more than once that the parts book/computer number is wrong and having the old part in hand when buying the new one has saved me, the Dorman oil pan drain plug for my 51 comes to mind.  

Jeeze now you've got me thinking about my parts car that I completely disassembled.  I'll bet the outer seals are still in the backing plate so I can use them as samples.  As for the inner seals. I didn't have room to keep the differential so it went off to the metal recycler and I probably didn't have the foresight to pull the seals out to use them as samples.  Nor did I pull the pinion seal either.  But as for the inner seals I can use the p/n that Keith supplied earlier for the CAT seals. 

[Eneto-55]

6 hours ago, kencombs said:

I've heard that story too.  It's not true as the rules are very clear, the product must be marked with its country of origin.

Here is the Wiki article about the city in Japan called Usa.  

 

Usa, Japan

 

This write-up does state that the city was organized in 1967 (by combining two smaller towns or cities).  That is somewhat late in respect to the time period when "made in Japan" was considered a negative thing, rather than a mark of quality, as it is today, at least in most industries.  But it DOES seem a bit suspicious, and I also recall having heard this story well before the internet era, and the argument in the Wiki article (that if it said "made in Usa, Japan" it would have been caught) is not really convincing (imo).  There are all sorts of fraudulent markings on products even still now-a-days, and I would imagine that it would have been much easier to get past the authorities back in those days.  I lived in Brazil for 18 years, and imitation electronics (usually with a name that is just almost identical to a real quality brand) were very common in the open markets.  (Sort of like the "Rolex" watches you can buy real cheap on the street in NYC.)

 

[Maybe someone older than I can better remember when the reputation of Japanese products became positive.]

Edited May 25, 2021 by Eneto-55

[kencombs]

20 minutes ago, Eneto-55 said:

Here is the Wiki article about the city in Japan called Usa.  

 

Usa, Japan

 

This write-up does state that the city was organized in 1967 (by combining two smaller towns or cities).  That is somewhat late in respect to the time period when "made in Japan" was considered a negative thing, rather than a mark of quality, as it is today, at least in most industries.  But it DOES seem a bit suspicious, and I also recall having heard this story well before the internet era, and the argument in the Wiki article (that if it said "made in Usa, Japan" it would have been caught) is not really convincing (imo).  There are all sorts of fraudulent markings on products even still now-a-days, and I would imagine that it would have been much easier to get past the authorities back in those days.  I lived in Brazil for 18 years, and imitation electronics (usually with a name that is just almost identical to a real quality brand) were very common in the open markets.  (Sort of like the "Rolex" watches you can buy real cheap on the street in NYC

 

[Maybe someone older than I can better remember when the reputation of Japanese products became positive.]

Here is my source that debunks the story as it is normally interpreted

.https://www.komando.com/lifestyle/is-a-japanese-town-renaming-itself-to-usa-so-products-can-say-made-in-usa/566609/.)

 

And here is a commercial interpretation by a company that deals solely with import and export.

https://www.flexport.com/help/207-country-of-origin-labeling-requirements/

 

I distinctly recall walking around in an old 5 and dime store when I was about 12 (1955 or so).  There was a big bin of little metal toys, the kind that had parts joined by a tab in a slot and bent over to retain them.  One had been stepped on in the for and came apart.  It was a beer can piece stamped and turned label inside.  Printed 'Made in Japan' on the bottom. 

 

But in the early 70s Japanese cars had already gained a reputation for value and durability.  First Toyota I worked on was a Corona that had been overheated and needed rings.  It was just about identical to a 55 Chevy 6, just missing two cylinders.  Solid, simple engineering copy of a reliable engine.

 

About the same time their bearings where recognized as equal to the best.

 

Lots of progress in a relatively short time

 

[keithb7]

The last few times I went to a local bearing house to match up bearings I left frustrated. They made a lousy effort to try. They really were not interested in helping me. I do the work myself and get the results I need. I’m old enough to remember when a good partsperson was very valuable to someone who worked on automobiles.  That person was able to earn a decent living too.  Before computers dumbed down the partsperson trade. 
 

Do you get what you pay for? Today you may need to work a little harder to earn what you get in value. If you would rather just flop out $100 bills and buy parts with little effort you’ll get what you get. Might be good or could be bad junk.
 

If you aren’t interested in doing any research, odds are you may not be able to identify a good value part.  I guarantee Richard Desoto recognizes good quality parts. 

I do my research. I have purchased parts manuals. Multiple service manuals. $100 for a vintage Hollander Exchange. $100 for another decent service manual. $50 for a parts manual. Another $50 for another parts manual. Another $100 invested in 2 Motors Manuals. Dyke’s encyclopedia and more. I’ve seen good sized home technical libraries where people have invested considerably.  Some of us spend countless hours reading old technical text books and visiting sites like this one. Researching, and also helping others. I personally have countless hours producing You Tube videos to help others. 
 

Karma is real. I help others in the hobby constantly. Free info and good advice comes my way too. Scanned data and old reference material also finds its way to me too, free. I share what I have too. I am rewarded when I am able to help those who also want to help themselves. People who roll up their sleeves and get greasy, I have no problem helping ouy. Every dollar I’ve spent on technical books or any other technical literature was spent for my sole personal benefit. If it can also helps others, great!

 

It's a hobby. I like surrounding myself with like-minded hobbyists. 
I like to share what info I may have and know. I like it when others do the same. We all win when combined, we share our knowledge and some resources too. Within reason. I won’t be scanning my entire 1938 Parts or Service manuals. Lol.  

 

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by keithb7

[Bryan G]

When it comes to new production reproduction parts I've generally been disappointed. Granted, my experiences have been non-Mopar up to this point but I'm not expecting a big difference. My worst track record has been with weatherstripping. Of course, with them and with most of the items we need, old stock just isn't an option. Typically the issue seems to be that they were either using old, worn-out tooling or did a less-than stellar job at matching new tooling to an old part. Trouble is you don't often have much choice. In one case my original motor mounts lasted 65 years before the rubber came loose from the steel; the new ones, made in India, started coming apart within a couple years. Unless there are 2 companies reproducing them there isn't much incentive to do better.

 

I agree 100% with investing the time to do your own research and being able to walk into the auto parts store with the part number. I've found plenty of basic items that are available at any NAPA either in stock or next day yet the computer says it doesn't fit. For one of my cars that included a generator bearing, oil filter element, brake light switch, etc. An hour spent on Google and I learned my local Ford dealer had a brass float in stock for the sending unit on my 70 year old Fordor, because it also fit a Bronco. I needed a tiny spring for a generator, available online for a ridiculous price. The local alternator/starter rebuilder has them but won't sell them. I visited a local old-time tractor repair shop and he had a dozen in an old parts cabinet. It's quite amazing what you can find for cars like ours with some patience and creativity.

 

Most recently I needed some piston rings. Bernbaum lists them but I learned they were new production and the manufacturer was moving from the US to Mexico when Covid hit. They haven't ramped up again as of yet. Thanks to a buddy with a parts book I have the OEM number, and Deception Gap out in Washington had them in stock...all it took was a net search of that part number.  Personally I like that kind of challenge!

[Marcel Backs]

Buy North American and avoid buying cheap crap made by the huge Orwellian garbage factory across the pond! If everyone stuck together and left the big garbage factory out in the cold, they may be more apt to becoming better global citizens and not feeding us shizzle and poorly constructed rocket parts that haphazardly fall back to earth!  M

[soth122003]

Something else to think on as well. Planned Obsolesence. When they used to make good quality products, no matter where, it was hard to sell after the first to second year due to no one needing a replacement. So a lot of companies starting in the late 70's set about making a product that didn't last as long so they could sell the next best thing and people would buy it knowing that what they had was on it's last legs or the new and improved model was better. I mean look at the I-Phone. Every model that came out since the original only had one or two improvements (usually the camera). The trouble with people now a days is all they see is the fun shiny object and they will wait in line for days just to get it. Same with cars. Most people used to buy them every 8-10 years now less than 5 years. Also with all the plastic used to make cars lighter, the sun and heat kill them rather quickly.

 

The only household invention that was worth anything was the flat screen tv. I had a 36 inch sony tube tv for over 20 years. I had to take it to the shop once for a fix and that thing weighed a ton. After it went out again, bought a 40 inch flat screen that I could carry with one hand. There are very few companies that make a good product, mostly in Japan, A lot of American companies moved overseas mainly for the cost saving benefit, but the quality suffered even more after that. Buy any pair of shoes from a second or third world manufacturer and no 2 pair is really the same size.

 

Last thing I'll mention is scientific advancement. Up until the development of the transistor, product development was at a sedate pace. With the transistor, products that were newly developed were obsolete in just a few years due to advancements in electronics then printed circuit boards, microchips, carbon fiber, the list goes on. We have developed more new things in the last 30 years than in the last 300. While scientific advancement is good, the number of new things is so overwhelming, you don't know what's good or bad until it's been out for a while and by then something new has come along.

 

Back to the question of worth, usually the more expensive the better (for parts at least) depending on the the country of origin. America's manufacturing base is slowly coming back but so is the price tag that comes along with it. Between cost of living and the wages today is it any wonder people buy cheap and hope for the best.

 

Joe Lee

 

[kencombs]

On the subject of bearings and seals, there is a vast amount info on the manufacturer's websites.  Seal type, dimensions etc are all out there along with part number ids.  Takes a lot of digging but one can usually find a number that can be used to order or cross-reference.  Also a lot of bearing grade info, especially for ball bearings as they can be really cheap and sloppy of super high precision.

 

Wheel bearings and seals are often available from multiple sources.  A lot of old stuff inside transmissions and differentials is specific to that use and doesn't xref well,  But water pumps, generators, alternators, blower motors etc often use a generic part.

 

Once you identify the makers part number or nomenclature 'getting what you pay for " is much easier to determine as there are more sources and comparisons.

[harmony]

Fortunately I did still have the outer seals in the backing plates of my parts car.  However strangely, they are different numbers for each side.  Both by Victor one number is 46292, the other number is 62160.  Timken has a cross reference for the 46292 which is 483793.  They show the measurements of it on line and I still have the parts car axles so I'll take some reading just to be sure. As for the inner seals, like I said previously, I can use the CAT number Keith gave me for the inner seals. Even though Timken aren't made in North America, at least they aren't made in China and I've never had an issue with Timken bearings or seals over the many decades.

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by harmony

[Tooljunkie]

On 5/24/2021 at 2:06 PM, Dartgame said:

Over 40 years ago I installed a TRW timing set for a small block mopar. I installed it according to the timing marks on the pieces. Guess what - the marks were off by one tooth. Engine ran, but I sensed it was running oddly. Tore it apart and voila, discovered the marking issue. Since then I always check cam centerlines. Bottom line - assuming TRW parts were made in the US back then, there is no guarantee of quality regardless of where it was produced. But in general anything electrical made today for the aftermarket especially from overseas is a gamble. I've had new water pumps fail because of the impeller loosening on the shaft after installation as well.

There was a brand way cheaper than trw, i cant seem to remember the name off hand,but they had the identical parts in the box. Only difference was trw had a nicer finish. They manufactured for trw. 
 

10 minutes and it came to me. Elgin manufacturing. 
 

as far as finding a good parts guy, they gone, maybe not. But the books that had all that great information are all gone. 
i went back to work in a parts store for about a month. No dam books. The younger generations decided books are unnecessary. Really? Try looking up a head gasket for a 3 cylinder british made ford tractor. 
i did find an old victor-reinz book in the back and changed up the number. And it was right. 
but no listing for it in the system. 
 
i did the parts thing in the 80’s and 90’s. 

ya, its way different now. I wont do that again. Pretty much destroyed a friendship over it. Buddy wanted me to go work for him. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Tooljunkie

[Sniper]

My local NAPA still has the books. 

[Plymouthy Adams]

so does our Advance....I often time pop in and ask to view one or two of the books if looking for something special without my knowing what car may or may not have had it installed.  The books are a great help to those that do a bit of special install work.

[harmony]

On 5/24/2021 at 11:15 AM, keithb7 said:

Parts Tip: Rear inner axle seals.   Your local Caterpillar equipment dealer has these. Direct fit replacement seal.  Part number 2B-1869. Much savings $$$ too. These are a decent quality seal. 
 

There are probably 350 plus Caterpillar dealers in North America. Active and doing good business today.  They look after probably a million pieces of Cat equipment. Likely thats a low guess. Economy of scale. They might  be building 10,000 of these seals per year. Again, guessing.  Call up your local dealer. Report back and let us know the price in the USA. 

 

 

Keith did you happen to record the inner and outer dimensions of that CAT inner oil seal? Was it for your 53 Chrysler? Or for your 38 Plymouth? I found a thread on here from about 7 years ago I think and a fellow had discovered that Chrysler changed the inner size of the oil seal part way through the 1948 year.  Meaning you'd have to source it through your serial number.  However I don't see any mention of that in the parts manual.   

Anyways for the inner seal, all I have is the axle dimension taken from the axle of my parts car, of where I think the inner oil seal would be and that dimension is 1 13/32"or 35.6mm or 1.4045 in.  So the CAT seal inside measurement should be slightly less I would think.   

Edited May 31, 2021 by harmony

[DJK]

On 5/24/2021 at 2:15 PM, keithb7 said:

Parts Tip: Rear inner axle seals.   Your local Caterpillar equipment dealer has these. Direct fit replacement seal.  Part number 2B-1869. Much savings $$$ too. These are a decent quality seal. 
 

There are probably 350 plus Caterpillar dealers in North America. Active and doing good business today.  They look after probably a million pieces of Cat equipment. Likely thats a low guess. Economy of scale. They might  be building 10,000 of these seals per year. Again, guessing.  Call up your local dealer. Report back and let us know the price in the USA. 

 

 

Keith, I used Cat bolts for my head bolts.

[Sniper]

What would be nice is a listing of part numbers when we find stuff that works.  Maybe in the tech section?

[Plymouthy Adams]

Caterpillar seems to have had the only listing for a hydraulic fitting I was researching one time....they do have a ton of parts....most parts are spec referenced making them a bit easier to locate in the chain...specs is what led me to their inventory