Please give your opinion

[JBNeal]

It sounds kinda like the problem is in the rear axle...the QuadCab has had some brake issues for quite awhile now, and those have slowly started clearing up, but your lockup problem kinda sounds similar to what the truck has been throwing at me when the rear calipers would get in a bind...however, the turning at the end of your driveway will cause the differential to do its thing, kinda sounds like some binding going on when it's still cold...but once the diff and oil warm up, the problem goes away...maybe an axle or carrier bearing or both are on the worn side...but that would produce a howling noise at highway speeds...maybe go through the Rear Axle Fundamentals to see if anything sounds familiar

[Hamilton]

I'd still be looking at the brakes.  You might try avoiding the pedal while backing  out, using the parking brake to slow/stop the car.  If it still locks up then I'd resume my search for other causes.  If it doesn't, look harder at your braking system.

 

_

[kencombs]

I have had drum brake vehicles act similarly.  It was due to drums forming a slight film of rust with disuse.  That caused the shoes to stick on the first application when moving.  Usually just causes a jerk or grab on first use.    Try lightly dragging the brakes when backing up to wipe the drums clean and heat the lining a bit to dissipate any moisture.

 

My theory is that some organic linings, which replaced the original asbestos ones, absorb moisture causing this.  Just a theory.

 

I currently own a 97 F150, bought new that will grab badly after setting overnight in humid weather, or really badly after a week.

[greg g]

Next time it occurs, shut off the car, get out and see if the brake light is still on.  If the hydraulic pressure is not completely released, shoes are still in contact with the drums and the pressure may keep the light on indicating the fault.  Since this is occuring with the wheels turned, I would suspect a bad rubber brake line. Change the hoses. Next time you drive the car, back it in so you can drive out in forward.  Same symptom??  Also check the two holes in the bottom of the mc fluid reservoir.  There should be 2.clean them out with a piece of mechanics wire.  Rust and debris will also cause an incomplete release of fluid pressure.

[Eneto-55]

9 hours ago, kencombs said:

I have had drum brake vehicles act similarly.  It was due to drums forming a slight film of rust with disuse.  That caused the shoes to stick on the first application when moving.  Usually just causes a jerk or grab on first use.    Try lightly dragging the brakes when backing up to wipe the drums clean and heat the lining a bit to dissipate any moisture.

 

My theory is that some organic linings, which replaced the original asbestos ones, absorb moisture causing this.  Just a theory.

 

I currently own a 97 F150, bought new that will grab badly after setting overnight in humid weather, or really badly after a week.

I had a Chrysler Town & Country (2000) that once drug both "back legs" all the way out of the garage before they started turning.  Same deal - ran it in the rain, then parked it for several days, stuck fast.

[Robert5]

14 hours ago, JBNeal said:

It sounds kinda like the problem is in the rear axle...the QuadCab has had some brake issues for quite awhile now, and those have slowly started clearing up, but your lockup problem kinda sounds similar to what the truck has been throwing at me when the rear calipers would get in a bind...however, the turning at the end of your driveway will cause the differential to do its thing, kinda sounds like some binding going on when it's still cold...but once the diff and oil warm up, the problem goes away...maybe an axle or carrier bearing or both are on the worn side...but that would produce a howling noise at highway speeds...maybe go through the Rear Axle Fundamentals to see if anything sounds familiar

Thanks for the thoughts. I have no howling at highway speeds but that's an interesting thought. How long would it take for the diff and oil to warm up?

[JBNeal]

If ya take a look at the mechanisms in the differential, there are big thick gears, big roller bearings, and thick gear oil to deal with the torque input and heat generated from resistance inside cast iron casings...the gear oil doubles as a coolant for the surfaces that are in direct contact with the torque transmission...it takes a lot of heat to raise the gear oil average temperature, so there are hot spots at contact surfaces before the gear oil reaches a uniform temperature...add to this the fact that the ring gear slings the warmer oil against the casting and the flow rate of gear oil, then that brings into question where the gear oil is when your problem occurs.  After a week of sitting, part of the differential isn't dry but it has a very thin film of gear oil.  That film can act as a shim, and if the film is too thin, then the wear in the differential gears is unmasked and that could be the source of the binding.  But once that film thickness increases because of the distribution of the gear oil during operation, then you have a differential that appears to operate normally, but right at the edge of failure.  Differential settings are done with a dry diff so that tolerances are measured accurately, and this was all designed so that the gear oil will coat the contact areas but not be completely displaced so that heat dissipation is uninterrupted and wear is reduced.

 

After sitting for a week, maybe a test drive in the drive way, as short as it is, could help...instead of just backing out into the traffic, back to the end of the driveway and forward to where ya started a few times...this can get that gear oil moving to build up the film on the differential parts...it may seem silly to onlookers, but if that short amount of time doing preventative maintenance can delay the need to rebuild that differential that can take hours if not days to complete, then the math speaks for itself

[Robert5]

20 hours ago, JBNeal said:

It sounds kinda like the problem is in the rear axle...the QuadCab has had some brake issues for quite awhile now, and those have slowly started clearing up, but your lockup problem kinda sounds similar to what the truck has been throwing at me when the rear calipers would get in a bind...however, the turning at the end of your driveway will cause the differential to do its thing, kinda sounds like some binding going on when it's still cold...but once the diff and oil warm up, the problem goes away...maybe an axle or carrier bearing or both are on the worn side...but that would produce a howling noise at highway speeds...maybe go through the Rear Axle Fundamentals to see if anything sounds familiar

Thanks for the thoughts. I have no howling at highway speeds but that's an interesting thought. How long would it take for the diff and oil to warm up?

 

2 hours ago, JBNeal said:

If ya take a look at the mechanisms in the differential, there are big thick gears, big roller bearings, and thick gear oil to deal with the torque input and heat generated from resistance inside cast iron casings...the gear oil doubles as a coolant for the surfaces that are in direct contact with the torque transmission...it takes a lot of heat to raise the gear oil average temperature, so there are hot spots at contact surfaces before the gear oil reaches a uniform temperature...add to this the fact that the ring gear slings the warmer oil against the casting and the flow rate of gear oil, then that brings into question where the gear oil is when your problem occurs.  After a week of sitting, part of the differential isn't dry but it has a very thin film of gear oil.  That film can act as a shim, and if the film is too thin, then the wear in the differential gears is unmasked and that could be the source of the binding.  But once that film thickness increases because of the distribution of the gear oil during operation, then you have a differential that appears to operate normally, but right at the edge of failure.  Differential settings are done with a dry diff so that tolerances are measured accurately, and this was all designed so that the gear oil will coat the contact areas but not be completely displaced so that heat dissipation is uninterrupted and wear is reduced.

 

After sitting for a week, maybe a test drive in the drive way, as short as it is, could help...instead of just backing out into the traffic, back to the end of the driveway and forward to where ya started a few times...this can get that gear oil moving to build up the film on the differential parts...it may seem silly to onlookers, but if that short amount of time doing preventative maintenance can delay the need to rebuild that differential that can take hours if not days to complete, then the math speaks for itself

JB I will try that. It will be interesting to see if it has an effect. I will report back. Thanks.

[Sam Buchanan]

3 hours ago, JBNeal said:

If ya take a look at the mechanisms in the differential, there are big thick gears, big roller bearings, and thick gear oil to deal with the torque input and heat generated from resistance inside cast iron casings...the gear oil doubles as a coolant for the surfaces that are in direct contact with the torque transmission...it takes a lot of heat to raise the gear oil average temperature, so there are hot spots at contact surfaces before the gear oil reaches a uniform temperature...add to this the fact that the ring gear slings the warmer oil against the casting and the flow rate of gear oil, then that brings into question where the gear oil is when your problem occurs.  After a week of sitting, part of the differential isn't dry but it has a very thin film of gear oil.  That film can act as a shim, and if the film is too thin, then the wear in the differential gears is unmasked and that could be the source of the binding.  But once that film thickness increases because of the distribution of the gear oil during operation, then you have a differential that appears to operate normally, but right at the edge of failure.  Differential settings are done with a dry diff so that tolerances are measured accurately, and this was all designed so that the gear oil will coat the contact areas but not be completely displaced so that heat dissipation is uninterrupted and wear is reduced.

 

After sitting for a week, maybe a test drive in the drive way, as short as it is, could help...instead of just backing out into the traffic, back to the end of the driveway and forward to where ya started a few times...this can get that gear oil moving to build up the film on the differential parts...it may seem silly to onlookers, but if that short amount of time doing preventative maintenance can delay the need to rebuild that differential that can take hours if not days to complete, then the math speaks for itself

 

Ok...inquiring minds are pondering......if the above is valid why isn't this a common problem with our cars, many with worn difs, when they sit between weekend drives? 

Edited September 9, 2020 by Sam Buchanan

[Young Ed]

Also have you tried parking it in the driveway the other direction?? 

[Robert5]

1 hour ago, Young Ed said:

Also have you tried parking it in the driveway the other direction?? 

Not yet. But after trying a few other suggestions next time out (maybe tomorrow if it doesn't rain) I will 

park it that way.

[Robert5]

17 hours ago, Young Ed said:

Also have you tried parking it in the driveway the other direction?? 

Not yet. But after trying a few other suggestions next time out (maybe tomorrow if it doesn't rain) I will 

park it that way.

[Robert5]

OK......weather cooperated this morning.

 

First thanks to everyone who has responded so far. Appreciate all your thoughts and suggestions.

 

Now on to my report. Drive up and down driveway several times before starting to back out and into street to drive. Seemed to have no effect.

When I did back out of driveway, drop her into first and turn wheel hard left to go down my street, I felt the resistance. Rather than try to overpower the resistance this time I put it back into reverse and turn steering back to the right and back up just a little more. Then back into first and turning hard left again, resistance gone and car moved forward happily. Hmm.

 OK....drive a mile or so.....no further issues as is always the case. I pull into a church parking lot. Try to duplicate the problem by doing the exact movements several times.......no problem at all. Cannot duplicate problem.

Once it disappears....it's not coming back that day.

Completed my little cruise, including fueling up.

When I got back home I backed into the driveway as suggested and left car is reverse (as driveway is pitched slightly towards the street ).

It will sit now for anywhere from 2-5 days depending on the weather.

 My conclusions are .just not be rear because trying warm rear and gear oil had no effect. I feel the issue is in the right front wheel/ brake area. And once it goes away......it will definitely not happen again that day. Next time out we will see if driving straight out and turning right to go forward causes a problem or not. To be continued..........

[Robert5]

Have not moved the car today, gonna do so tomorrow.

but .I don't trust the wheel cylinders and yes there are 2. Not leaking. But if they were made a little off.....perhaps the piston in them gets a bit out of kilter with all the steering girations, I dunno. I ordered 2 wheel cylinders and gonna replace them....can't hurt. And maybe it solves my problem.

[RobertKB]

You need to pull the right front drum if you suspect the problem is there. Easy and quick to do. 

[Robert5]

11 minutes ago, RobertKB said:

You need to pull the right front drum if you suspect the problem is there. Easy and quick to do. 

It's  been off. Everything looks good. Shoes are good. Springs are good and release. Wheel cylinders do not leak. Wheel bearing and race are fine. That was all checked a month ago.

But I ordered the new wheel cylinders anyway and will replace the ones on there anyway. Just in case internally one of the pistons get slightly off center when I go through the left, right process of backing out of the driveway.

[RobertKB]

Ok. Left rear would tend to do the same. I’m pretty sure your trouble is brake related. Could be master cylinder related. Check the two holes below the cap. Easy to do with a flashlight. I had that problem once. Hope you get things sorted soon. It can be very frustrating. 

[keithb7]

Lots of ideas. I can’t offer much more insight. Its starting to sound like a “Spray & Pray” job. You spray different controlled areas with parts and pray that you solved it. If. Not spray and pray some more. 
 

Reading what I have here so far, I’d probably start with those two front brakes and the master. 

[keithb7]

Lots of ideas. I can’t offer much more insight. Its starting to sound like a “Spray & Pray” job. You spray different controlled areas with new parts and pray that you solved it. If. Not spray and pray some more. 
 

Reading what I have here so far, I’d probably start with those two front brakes and the master. 

[Robert5]

18 hours ago, RobertKB said:

 

blockquote widget

[Robert5]

Ok..sunny day today. 

Drove car straight out driveway and made right onto the street. This was possible because car was backed in.

And no resistance was noticed. Not sure what that indicates.....but I like it.

So, it is backed in again.

Wheel cylinders for right front are ordered and will go on anyway.

 

 

[Sam Buchanan]

58 minutes ago, Robert5 said:

Ok..sunny day today. 

Drove car straight out driveway and made right onto the street. This was possible because car was backed in.

And no resistance was noticed. Not sure what that indicates.....but I like it.

So, it is backed in again.

Wheel cylinders for right front are ordered and will go on anyway.

 

 

 

Give the return springs a hard look while you are at it.

[Robert5]

1 hour ago, Sam Buchanan said:

 

Give the return springs a hard look while you are at it.

They have been already given that hard look. Even tested while on a lift. They are fine. But thanks for your thought.

[Los_Control]

On 9/10/2020 at 10:57 AM, Robert5 said:

turn wheel hard left to go down my street, I felt the resistance. Rather than try to overpower the resistance this time I put it back into reverse and turn steering back to the right and back up just a little more. Then back into first and turning hard left again, resistance gone and car moved forward happily. Hmm.

I do not know the age and condition of your brake lines master cylinder etc ... My first thought was master cylinder ... after reading this ...

I wonder about condition and age of rubber brake lines.

As they age and deteriorate they can fail from the inside out. Meaning they look fine on outside, but falling apart inside.

If you are turning the wheel, and the line is collapsing inside and blocking the fluid return, that wheel brakes will not release.

Is it possible you have brake lines on front that are to long, that when you turn the wheel they kink and possibly cause early failure?

[Robert5]

17 hours ago, Los_Control said:

I do not know the age and condition of your brake lines master cylinder etc ... My first thought was master cylinder ... after reading this ...

I wonder about condition and age of rubber brake lines.

As they age and deteriorate they can fail from the inside out. Meaning they look fine on outside, but falling apart inside.

If you are turning the wheel, and the line is collapsing inside and blocking the fluid return, that wheel brakes will not release.

Is it possible you have brake lines on front that are to long, that when you turn the wheel they kink and possibly cause early failure?

 Brake lines fairly new.......3 years perhaps. My b-i-l who was a mechanic by trade.....retired now, feels that most times if the brake hose collapses inside it doesn't usually uncollapse. I dunno.

We'll see if replacing the wheel cylinders in the R F wheel changes anything.