butt connectors / whats the deal, pickle :)

[3046moparcoupe]

Seems to me like there can be only one obvious answer to this question, but you folks whom might have come to know me here on the forum know that I just can't stand to be in doubt or to assume in regards to much of anything, so here we go. 

 

Picked up a clean headlight switch, factory correct part for the car (P15) see attach pic #3 100-5297 jpg. Requires the bullet connectors on the 4ea output feeds coming off the switch itself.

 

On the original wiring harness I removed from the car (I've realized how lucky I was in that the harness had been taped up so the colors were extremely well preserved except for around the ends, and the harness had not been cut up too badly, only in that someone had replaced the original headlight switch with a 2 position toggle switch and the high low beam switch had been replaced with an aftermarket that required spade connectors), see attached pic #100-5293.jpg. Having the electrical schematic drawings in the manual, and the original harness almost all intact, has really allowed me to move forward with confidence in duplicating what I need with fresh wiring and connectors from stem to stern,....interesting that Mopar had a dash mark legend on the wires themselves, (a broken hash mark line tat ran the length of the wire), as follows: 16 ga = one single dash mark, 14 ga = a double dash mark (like an = symbol angled at a 45 degree angle down the wire), 12 ga = a triple dash mark symbol, and 10 ga had no dash mark - but was just the solid color of the wire.

 

I made the decision to just run 14 awg everywhere 16awg was all that was actually required. so I didn't have to purchase reels of both the 14 and 16 awg…..so I need to run 2ea 12awg wires with the bullet connectors and 2ea 14 awg wires with the bullet connectors from my headlight switch....

 

I was lucky in that the original bullet connectors were still in the wiring harness (when the replaced the headlight switch with the toggle switch and the h/l beam switch they didn't cut the original bullets off, they used a female bullet barrel and pig-tailed off the original bullet connectors).

 

So today, I took my soldering iron and removed the old solder and wires from the bullet connectors, see attached pic #2 100-5295.jpg.....some of the connectors had 12 ga wire soldered into them, some had 16 ga, 14ga...etc....and I didn't pay much attention as I removed the solder and wire other than trying not to get burned by the tip of that iron.

 

Once I was finished, I was proud of my oem mopar butt connectors, thinking I have the right size connectors, with the correct angle on the butt, oem parts that were made to go together - yahoo !! success....then I looked down the barrel of each connector and the round hole opening for each connector appeared to be exactly the same size....yet I had just removed some factory 12 awg wire from a couple of these butt connectors..???

 

So I stepped over and stripped a short end section of my new 12awg flex wire, and of course it wouldn't stick up inside the freshly cleaned barrel hole of the butt connector.....

 

So I'm guessing here, (unlike when you crimp on a terminal end and you try to be as careful as possible not to cut into your wires when removing the sheathing), that I need to do (and what the factory must have done) is to remove enough strands so that the 12ga wire will fit through the hole in the butt connector, then solder it up...??

 

Never having seen this before, I was expecting to find different size hole openings in the different butt connectors, gauging them for the different wire sizes, but from what I'm seeing here on my harness - that is not the case ??

 

Reaching out to you mopar electrical guru's who have been there , done it, and got the t-shirt to prove it....for confirmation about this, before I move forward....

 

thanks again, my forum friends..Steve

[Young Ed]

I gotta ask why aren't you just using new bullet connectors? They are readily available at an auto parts store or hardware store

[Andydodge]

Ed..........I have found that the "new" bullet connectors that are of the crimp style with either red or blue insulation are of a slightly larger diameter than the ones that are shown in 3046's second pic.......they CAN be used and in fact I DO USE them but I had to carefully enlarge the four "holes" on the headlight switch......works o/k but as I have found the original bullets and their holes are smaller......at least here in Oz they are...........andyd     

[Dennis Detweiler]

I just finished rewiring my 39. Someone used crimp connectors on everything (new to old wires). A few of them came loose easily with a slight tug. I gutted all of it and ran new wires. When necessary, I removed the plastic insulators from a few new crimp connectors and soldered the barrels onto the wires. Then used shrink tubing to insulate. I also added two fuse panels and separated the components with individual fuses. One fuse panel is hot all the time and the other works from the ignition switch. I also added high and low beam relays. Also, a horn relay. Plus, an electric fuel pump for priming and backup. The only original wires remaining are the dash lights, which were in good condition. I used new Autozone bullet connectors on the headlight switch and they seem to fit perfectly.

[Plymouthy Adams]

do not cut strands of wire...when you do, you just took that wire to a smaller gauge and no longer rated for the amperage the original wire calls for...you may need first to assure you have the correct gauge wire to begin with...remember, connectors for automobiles are usually sold in red, blue and yellow insulators...each reflect the max wire it will allow to be fixed in place.....red is smallest, then blue then the yellow....I believe we discussed this on the phone when discussing the proper crimping tool you will need.

[Young Ed]

8 hours ago, Andydodge said:

Ed..........I have found that the "new" bullet connectors that are of the crimp style with either red or blue insulation are of a slightly larger diameter than the ones that are shown in 3046's second pic.......they CAN be used and in fact I DO USE them but I had to carefully enlarge the four "holes" on the headlight switch......works o/k but as I have found the original bullets and their holes are smaller......at least here in Oz they are...........andyd     

I had that trouble at first too. One of the guys at Napa showed me that along with the different colors for the wire end there are actually a couple sizes of bullet ends too. We were able to match some up that fit nicely in the headlight switch. 

[Pete]

Found some 10-12 bullet connectors on Amazon. Came from China and took forever to arrive, but they fit the larger diameter wire without cutting strands:

 

Baomain Flared Vinyl Insulated Electrical Wiring Male Bullet Connectors 12-10AWG 0.156" ,Yellow,50Pack

 

[3046moparcoupe]

Thank you so much again everyone for all your excellent feedback and posts. Every single post response on this was helpful to me, I really appreciate it.

In response to the great reply's back, I would greatly prefer to use crimp over solder as I now have a good T&B crimp tool and using it in combination with the good connector terminals that have the built on 3m adhesive heat shrink makes for a beautiful secure connection. But with these bullet connectors (and I read and would definitely agree with one of Plymouthy's old posts on this, the bullet seems like a real good place for trouble, so one needs to pay close attention to what's going on there, corrosion, etc..)

 

When I looked at the modern bullets I was finding, they were all crimp on, none had their own heat shrink and they all had those large yellow hard plastic sleeves (that's OK, I can add my own heat shrink, it doesn't fit as nicely over the hard plastic sleeves after you crimp and maybe I'll just remove the hard plastic before I crimp), but also the physical size of these male bullet heads themselves were all over the place, and all were larger than what I had here on this harness, all those bullet heads also appeared (when I looked at the pics of them on the computer) to have a split in them (a seam if you will),  where the metal was rolled to form the head of the bullet (rather than like these old connectors that are a solid chunk of material),..made me wonder if the modern bullets would remain tight in the female barrel,etc...

 

So knowing me and the way I over analyze things, it seemed somewhat like a no brainer to just use the original bullets used at the factory, then I discovered the hole size issue, and ran to my forum buds for help and direction.

 

I would agree again with Plymouthy, removing any strands sure doesn't set right with me, (course your gauge wire is sized to carry your amperage load with a minimal voltage drop, in telecom it was equal to or less than a 1% allowable voltage drop),...so you use a 12 gauge wire to carry your amps say 5 ft on a 10ft loop feet run,  ( having a 1/4 inch of your wire trimmed down to 14 gauge at the bullet connector is not gonna be the kiss of death, and the fact that I'm using a marine gauge flex wire (with more physical surface area / circla mills / in respect to standard wire with fewer  - but larger individual strands), also helps in respect to this - but still - it's definitely not good  practice and especially with it being on the feeder end of the power run, so I also am not comfortable in doing that..

 

After receiving all the great reply's back, (it really helps to know that many of you have used modern bullet connectors and have not had any issues), I'm gonna proceed accordingly: 

 

I do shop a lot on ebay, and typically I just won't buy from a Chinese seller (not so much in that it's because the part is from China, we all know how that goes these days), but because as the fella above mentioned, it either takes forever, (or in my case, I just never get the item),...but I'm gonna go look for the connectors he spoke of.....and I'm also gonna go visit my napa guy "Jay" and see what they have in the line of bullet connectors...

 

This forum is the best, thank you all so much. I really appreciate you all for taking the time to read through my long post and to reply back. Nice hearing from some new folks out there this time, and Plymouthy, Ed and Andy,...you guys have been helping me like a brother for years now..your like family, that's how much this all means to me and how much I appreciate everyone's help.

 

Steve'o

Edited June 20, 2018 by 3046moparcoupe

[Dennis Detweiler]

I soldered all of my connectors. I used the new bullet connectors, but stripped the wire to fit all the way to the end of the bullet, then ran solder all the way through the bullet to make it solid. Use a wire stripper set for the proper wire size to eliminate cutting through the strands. Also pre-solder the bare end before inserting it into any connector. Then heat the connector with a soldering gun and melt more solder into the joint. You'll have a good solid joint. After seeing all of the previous crimp connectors on my project, I would never use them without solder.

[3046moparcoupe]

I appreciate the reply back Dennis, glad it's worked out for you - and hopefully it will continue to,...I have read information regarding this and can't help but see in my mind how it would make sense to be true. 

 

My problem with soldering and crimping, (especially soldering the wire before you crimp it) is that the crimp tries to crush the solder, and if it doesn't crush the solder it can try to break the wire in its effort to crush the solder as you crimp the connection,.... there's some information out there on this in regards to aviation and marine electrical wire connection standards...

 

I have built complete wiring harnesses back in my boating days, when we ran the flat bottom jets drive boats, and never had a single connection come apart (using crimp only), and flat bottom jet drives take a pretty good pounding on the water and a lot of vibration just about 100% of the time....the key (and I am quoting a good friend of mine here on the forum who has helped me like no other), is in the quality of your crimp tool.

 

Thanks for your reply to help and best of luck your way.

 

[Young Ed]

I use the modern connectors like you mentioned above. Throw away the plastic colored piece. Crimp then solder and then heatshrink over the joint. 

[Dennis Detweiler]

What I was saying is, not to crimp. Just solder. Crimping wouldn't work well on a pre-soldered wire. Crimping vs soldering is kind of similar to bolting two pieces of metal together as apposed to welding them together. The previous wiring job that the previous owner did on my 39 was all crimp. A few crimps fell apart from a weak crimp (probably was arching) and a few fell apart from crimping through the wire (too tight). My experience, solder is the most reliable connection.

I always remove the plastic colored insulator, solder,  then heat shrink. It's a slower process, but much more secure and reliable.

[kencombs]

Crimp or Solder???  that question comes up a lot in various forums.  IMO, the real question is should I buy a quality crimp tool or solder?  Any crimp done with a cheap crimp tool is suspect.  A crimp done with a quality terminal piece and tool is as good as it gets.

 

I spent a lot of years with a major airline.  At first I was an administrative employee in aircraft overhaul.  Then I moved to our computer center as a programmer/tech/supervisor/manager over the years.  All our computer wiring was crimped.  Anywhere from 2=25 pins per connection both ends of the cables.   Never, not once, did I see a soldered connection in thousands of miles of wiring.  I don't know of any aircraft electrical technicians that even have a soldering tool in their toolbox.  But they all have access to a company owned crimper that works.

Edited June 20, 2018 by kencombs

[Dennis Detweiler]

I would guess, the quality of wire would have some effect on a crimp also. Some of the Chinese wire that is carried at local auto parts stores would be questionable?

On a similar subject, I have been a musician for over 50years. Most amplifiers have molex connectors connecting one circuit board to the next or a reverb section to a board, etc. 90% of the problems that eventually develop after several years of use is the connectors loosen and have to be disconnected, re-crimp the female pins, lubed and reconnected. The same happens to the plug in style pins on the power transistors. removing the molex connectors and soldering the boards together would solve the problem, but would be a time consuming expense to pull a circuit board for repairs. Crimps and molex connections are much quicker and keeps the cost down.   

[TodFitch]

1 hour ago, kencombs said:

Crimp or Solder???  that question comes up a lot in various forums.  IMO, the real question is should I buy a quality crimp tool or solder?  Any crimp done with a cheap crimp tool is suspect.  A crimp done with a quality terminal piece and tool is as good as it gets.

 

I spent a lot of years with a major airline.  At first I was an administrative employee in aircraft overhaul.  Then I moved to our computer center as a programmer/tech/supervisor/manager over the years.  All our computer wiring was crimped.  Anywhere from 2=25 pins per connection both ends of the cables.   Never, not once, did I see a soldered connection in thousands of miles of wiring.  I don't know of any aircraft electrical technicians that even have a soldering tool in their toolbox.  But they all have access to a company owned crimper that works.

 

One problem with soldering a connector on is that some solder will wick up the wire making it stiff and subject to fatigue failure. If I recall correctly, the aerospace factory I worked at right out of college all connectors were crimped. But, and this is a huge but, they had specific crimping tools for each application and the tools were sent for calibration and adjustment on a very regular basis.

 

Since I don't have that type of equipment, just a higher end retail customer type wire crimping tool, I lightly crimp the connector on mostly to hold it in place long enough to solder it. And I take care to keep the heat on the connector, not the wire, to reduce the amount of solder that wicks into the wire outside the connector. So far, I've never had a failure of a connector I've attached this way.

 

1 hour ago, Dennis Detweiler said:

I would guess, the quality of wire would have some effect on a crimp also. Some of the Chinese wire that is carried at local auto parts stores would be questionable?

On a similar subject, I have been a musician for over 50years. Most amplifiers have molex connectors connecting one circuit board to the next or a reverb section to a board, etc. 90% of the problems that eventually develop after several years of use is the connectors loosen and have to be disconnected, re-crimp the female pins, lubed and reconnected. The same happens to the plug in style pins on the power transistors. removing the molex connectors and soldering the boards together would solve the problem, but would be a time consuming expense to pull a circuit board for repairs. Crimps and molex connections are much quicker and keeps the cost down.   

 

At another small company I worked for some of the original designs had lots of connectors and individual boards to hold the electronics. Experience showed that the most failure prone parts were the connectors. On later designs we got a much more reliable product by reducing the number of separate circuit boards (and thus the associated connectors) as much as possible.

[Don Coatney]

My dad was part of the team that designed the first transistor radio. Note the soldering process in this film clip.

 

 

 

 

[DJ194950]

I have found on crimp type connectors with sleeves or with out as mentioned earlier have as split in them- sometimes hard to see but almost all have them.

 

Never never put the crimping side of the pliers over this split. Crimp opposite the split with the rounded side  of the crimp pliers under the split. Most parts store crimp type connectors will split the cheap-ass plastic covers when crimped tightly-as I believe they need to be. Some quality commercial grade crimp connectors that are much more pliable and easily stand up to a good tight crimp.

Where to buy them? Used to get mine at work, even if I had to pay for them!?

 

Also I always like a crimp pliers with a wider crimp area on them say about 3/16" instead of some with only  1/8" or less. Often use my Cresent Tool brand I purchased at Harbor Freight a few years back.

Just IMO,

 

DJ

[3046moparcoupe]

Many thanks for all the continued reply's, I'm learning and appreciate the info....here's what I discovered about his all today, and how I plan to proceed forward:

 

The industry standard today for bullet connectors is for the bullet end diameter to be either .157 " or .180" for a bullet connector that handles 14-16awg wire. (that's it, that's all that's out there, you can find them with out any plastic, with the yard plastic worthless sleeve, some with a better nylon sleeve, and some "mostly marine grade" with a adhesive lined heat shrink attached...………….then for the 10-12 awg wire, all bullet connectors today have and male bullet diameter of .195, and same thing as above - you can find them with sleeves and without.

 

The original bullet connectors that came off this factory wiring harness have male bullets that measure in diameter at around .165 (some .163 some .167), and as Plymouthy has coached me, I took a drill bit - used it as a measuring gauge if you will - and found that I could just get a 5/32nd drill bit to fit tightly inside the female bullet barrels of this light switch. My computer tells me that a 5/32nd drill bit should equal .1567 of an inch,.....when I measured my drill bit with my calipers, I was getting around .153 ", course that's on a used drill bit that's been chucked up, etc...I also believe I'm suspect to using a bit more ( pressure/tension/slightly squeezing),... with the calipers than I should..

 

Anyway - the smaller .157" bullets for the 14-16 awg wire, with the adhesive lined heat shrink are cheap enough at around $4 for 10-15ea, so I ordered some.

I also ordered some of the larger .180" bullets for the 14-16awg wire, again with the adhesive heat shrink, we'll see how they actually measure up, once they get here, and I ordered a small pkg of the 10-12awg .195 male end bullet connectors, again with the built in heat shrink.

 

For the 1ea larger #12ga run, from post "H" on the headlight switch down to the high/low beam floor switch, I decided to try and follow suit with what Andy Dodge described above and I as carefully as I possible could, worked to open up both the inner copper female bullet barrel and the outer steel barrel to a larger diameter to accept the new .195 standard 10-12awg bullet connector end..see the attached pic..

 

I've got the H terminal barrels opened up to where a drill bit measuring .180" fits snugly in the inner barrel, and the outer ring is of course out of the way enough to allow the inner barrel to move as required. if the new bullet connectors do truly measure out to be .195", then at present I would have around a .015 " expansion fit...…(according to what I measured off the old original harness, there was around a .010-.015 expansion fit in place on the original bullet connectors..

 

not trying to make this harder than it has to be, but I would think that a new wiring harness is only as good as it's weakest link,...so I'm trying to build something that will hold up and provide a good service life..

 

This sure would have been a lot simpler, had I just bought a new aftermarket light switch, with screw terminal lugs on it but NO, I've gotta have my original knobs and bezels all matching, etc...

 

I'll post again on this, when I get the connectors in and do some stare and compare, etc..

 

Steve

[Pete]

The Amazon link I posted above is for 0.156 bullet connectors for 10-12 gauge wire. They were the only ones that size I could find. That's why I was willing to wait on shipment from China. I pull off the yellow insulation and use heat shrink. They fit my 1939 headlight switch without modification. So they do exist...

 

 

[3046moparcoupe]

Pete, you are 100% correct, I stand corrected on my comment that 10-12 awg bullets could only be found in the .195 diameter male bullet head,.....look at what I found at Home depot today ?

 

The brand is Gardner Bender, and the .156 fit inside the female barrel of these bullet connector is very nice, very snug, you can see the female barrel upon up what looks to me like at least .005 or so when you insert the male stud into it.... I'm gonna remove the plastic and crimp one to see how it crimps.

 

This 10 pack at Home Depot cost $1.96....but you only get 5ea male connectors as they are selling them in a set as pairs......still cheap enough.

 

I attached a picture...( I just noticed it's a little blurry, for those that might want it - the part # is 15-162P

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply and your help with this.

 

 

Steve

Edited June 21, 2018 by 3046moparcoupe

[3046moparcoupe]

Just wanted to add a final note to this post as maybe it will help someone out someday. The Gardner bender Butt (bullet connectors) I show pictured in my last (the previous) reply to this post,..are a perfect fit for the headlight switch barrels on the P15 headlight switch. They don't come with the nice adhesive heat shrink built onto them like a marine connector, but the fit of the bullet into the barrel is perfect. I also ordered some marine grade bullet connectors (with the nice heat shrink), that were listed as the smaller size bullet, that should also fit into the barrel on the headlight switch, but they are a bit too large, so to use them your gonna have to spread your outer ring on the switch out a bit,...

 

These Gardner Bender Bullet connectors are available at Home Depot. I just removed the hard yellow plastic from the connector - crimped it up, and used some good heat shrink around it.

 

The part numbers are as follows: 

 

pp# 15-163p , desc: Bullet Splice .156" dia. 14-16 awg cost $1.96, gets you 5ea males and 5ea females

pp# 15-162p, desc:     "          "           "         "   10-12 awg          "                       "                    "                   " 

 

I also found these same Gardner Bender connectors  on ebay, but they've jacked the price up to something like $15 for 10 connectors...(but of course - you get free shipping

 

Steve

[LazyK]

3M company has a broad line of connectors. insulated and non insulated. vinyl and nylon insulated. butted seam and brazed seam.  wire gauges from 22ga to 6ga

https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/807103O/3m-wire-terminals-2013-product-catalog.pdf