Valve Work - 1953 L6 264.5 CI C60 Windsor Deluxe

[keithb7]

Hi folks, I thought I would start a new thread on the valve work I will be doing on my 53 Windsor Deluxe. L6 engine. New to me car, so I'll have some questions to ask as I move along. The head is off, RF inner fender well removed. I have ordered a valve spring compressor tool. The straight scissor type. Its not in yet. Today however I was hoping to compress the springs, maybe with a pry bar, remove the keepers and finally the valves.

My hope was that I could do this, while leaving the intake and exhaust manifolds in place. I am thinking that is not the case. Here is a pic as it sits today. I don't believe I would be able to use the valve compressor tool with this limited access. So shall I proceed to fully remove manifolds? 

I read in the shop manual that it's best to adjust the valves with the car running, and at operating temperature. Is that possible with this limited access? #6 valves being the most difficult to access. Thanks for your help. - Keith

Edited June 10, 2017 by keithb7

[Plymouthy Adams]

it's doable but in the end both you and it are done for....many will set the valves cold a couple thou loose...(better to hear them than burn them) ..others will run to temp...adjust a couple valves with engine off....run it a bit more to maintain temp...adjust a few more....while waiting for you tool, best to have this tool to help keep track of the retainers over flipping them with a pry bar to who knows where...do a bit of playing with access available to find your groove...

[Dodgeb4ya]

I have done many valve jobs with the manifolds on... just need the correct tools and knowledge... I always grind the seats with a Sioux grinder  and a bluing quick lap check to be sure of seat location and width.

Be sure to plug all the tappet chamber drain holes so you don't lose the keepers down into the basement.

[Bingster]

Those are great photos!  have any more?

[keithb7]

Moving right along here. Manifolds are off. The valve spring tool I orderd looks exactly like yours @Dodgeb4ya.

I must say, these old cars are a pleasure to work on compared to new cars. I recall the painstaking experience my son and I endured, replacing the 16V dual OH cam cylinder head on his 1993 Honda Prelude a few years ago. Ha, what a job that was compared this 53 Chrysler.

That's some real nice sludge in some of the oil pockets around the valve tappets. I really should be proceeding to pull the complete engine and rebuild it. The timing is just not right. I have some big financial commitments coming up soon. I need some time to squirrel away some cash for the parts and machining I'll need. I am hoping to get by for the summer on just a repair at this time.

I found the culprit that caused the bent valve, a small screw. It was sitting down in the intake manifold.

 

Edited June 10, 2017 by keithb7

[40plyguy]

I found it easy to use a standard "c" type spring compressor to remove the valves once the head and manifolds were off. Just needed to turn the cam as needed to get to the bottom of the lobe. I actually 1st tried a scissors type but. couldn't get enough leverage to break the valve retainers free

[DJ194950]

In your pictures with the intake/exhaust still on motor- question what is that hex side screw in fitting hanging down on the underside in front of the #4/5 valve cover area  that looks like a air/hose fitting?

On the exhaust manifold to exhaust flange it appears that the flange face in Not at all flat. If so with a straight edge to check flatness it requires filing until it is flat to stop and exhaust leak.

Very nice car! Enjoy!

DJ

[Young Ed]

I've seen lots worse valve chambers! Keep going-don't think rebuild until you get it running and see what you've got.

[knuckleharley]

4 hours ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

I have done many valve jobs with the manifolds on... just need the correct tools and knowledge... I always grind the seats with a Sioux grinder  and a bluing quick lap check to be sure of seat location and width.

Be sure to plug all the tappet chamber drain holes so you don't lose the keepers down into the basement.

"bluing quick lap test"

For those of you who aren't machinists,he is talking about using "Dykem Blue". It's a liquid coating/dye machinists use to to coat items they are going to machine so they can tell where the cutters are hitting and where they aren't in order to get a perfectly  flat surface,or to make sure two parts are in perfect contact with one another. Pretty handy stuff to have in your tool box.

Edited June 10, 2017 by knuckleharley

[Dodgeb4ya]

3 hours ago, DJ194950 said:

In your pictures with the intake/exhaust still on motor- question what is that hex side screw in fitting hanging down on the underside in front of the #4/5 valve cover area  that looks like a air/hose fitting?

On the exhaust manifold to exhaust flange it appears that the flange face in Not at all flat. If so with a straight edge to check flatness it requires filing until it is flat to stop and exhaust leak.

Very nice car! Enjoy!

DJ

There used to be or should be a 1/4" choke stove pipe tube extending out the bottom of the exhaust manifold a 1/2" and a 1-1/2" X 3" long "Tub" steel cover that was screwed to the bottom of the manifold and covered the tube. .

The other top end of the tube went up to the carb thermostatic choke housing 

All this so heat would be pulled up the 1/4" heat tube into the choke thermostatic spring winding so as to let the choke plate open  as the engine warmed up.

[DJ194950]

So it does Not leak exhaust then if left as is or does it?

Thanks,i am still trying to learn from the masters! 

DJ

[Dodgeb4ya]

It won't leak exhaust gas (noise) unless the tube is burned out where it goes through the middle of exhaust manifold.

[55 Fargo]

7 hours ago, keithb7 said:

Moving right along here. Manifolds are off. The valve spring tool I orderd looks exactly like yours @Dodgeb4ya.

I must say, these old cars are a pleasure to work on compared to new cars. I recall the painstaking experience my son and I endured, replacing the 16V dual OH cam cylinder head on his 1993 Honda Prelude a few years ago. Ha, what a job that was compared this 53 Chrysler.

That's some real nice sludge in some of the oil pockets around the valve tappets. I really should be proceeding to pull the complete engine and rebuild it. The timing is just not right. I have some big financial commitments coming up soon. I need some time to squirrel away some cash for the parts and machining I'll need. I am hoping to get by for the summer on just a repair at this time.

I found the culprit that caused the bent valve, a small screw. It was sitting down in the intake manifold.

 

button her up and drive, how well did she run before the bent valve incident? This engine once rebuilt again should put out some nice torque......

[pflaming]

I used a heavy gasket sealer for my head gasket, when dry it sets up hard. After torquing the head, I let it all seal before starting. The sealer ozzed over under one valve and ... no compression in that cylinder. It took Me a long time, several head installs before I found that small remaining hard gasket sealer under the top edge of the valve. Will use a spray on sealer when I return. 

[keithb7]

I was thinking I would use Permatex Orange spray on gasket sealer. Is this ok? Seen here https://fortnine.ca/en/permatex-copper-spray-a-gasket-high-temp-sealant

@55 Fargo Spitfire, the engine seemed to run pretty good before the bent valve incident. As I mentioned the car is new to me, so I am unsure what the engine should make for power, when healthy. I am sure it will be better when I am done as I seal up the valves.

I pulled few valves today. Spring compressor has not arrived yet, so I used a pry bar and make up some small blocks of wood to improve leverage. I learned today whey #6 cylinder was dead. It too has a slightly bent valve intake valve and was not sealing well at all. You can see in the photo, after I cleaned the valves up and put a flash light into the intake bore of the head.

See #6 intake, and #5 intake lit up here:

I am left wondering what was going on, on the valve faces of number 5 and 6 intake? Aside from the bent valves, see the corrosion? I cleaned up the valves with a wire wheel on my bench top grinder. Here is a pic comparing what 5 and 6 intake look like compared to all the rest of the valves. 5 and 6 exhaust are not pitted this this.

Edited June 12, 2017 by keithb7

[55 Fargo]

On 6/11/2017 at 8:47 PM, keithb7 said:

I was thinking I would use Permatex Orange spray on gasket sealer. Is this ok? Seen here https://fortnine.ca/en/permatex-copper-spray-a-gasket-high-temp-sealant

@55 Fargo Spitfire, the engine seemed to run pretty good before the bent valve incident. As I mentioned the car is new to me, so I am unsure what the engine should make for power, when healthy. I am sure it will be better when I am done as I seal up the valves.

I pulled few valves today. Spring compressor has not arrived yet, so I used a pry bar and make up some small blocks of wood to improve leverage. I learned today whey #6 cylinder was dead. It too has a slightly bent valve intake valve and was not sealing well at all. You can see in the photo, after I cleaned the valves up and put a flash light into the intake bore of the head.

See #6 intake, and #5 intake lit up here:

I am left wondering what was going on, on the valve faces of number 5 and 6 intake? Aside from the bent valves, see the corrosion? I cleaned up the valves with a wire wheel on my bench top grinder. Here is a pic comparing what 5 and 6 intake look like compared to all the rest of the valves. 5 and 6 exhaust are not pitted this this.

Its amazing how these engines keep running even in "wounded and worn condition",.

Here is the 265 engine I just bought, sat for 30 years, was rebuilt once, got a little moisture in cylinder 6 so a small spot of rust in the top of the cylinder.

The lifter chamber was super clean, the oil pan had a tiny bit of sludge, and the brass water tube pulled out easy and is clean as a whistle.

I have not deciced if it will get rebored and new pistons and rings, or measure things and hone with new rings.

It was rebuilt by Piston Ring pistons .040, rods .010 and mains .020, and was run a few seasons in a combine. Its a Chrysler Industrial 265 bored to 270.

[keithb7]

@Don Coatney, in another valve thread you posted an old tool for cutting intake valve seats. I need to do some work on my valve seats. Did you find the tool effective? Thinking I'll buy the one on Ebay shown below.  I need 1.5" for exhaust and 1.75" for intake. I was thinking if I use new valves that are cut at 45 deg, and use this 45 deg cutting tool on the seats, then lap, it may be ok. The rear 3 exhaust valve surfaces on my '53 are pretty rough. Probably due to heat. Maybe partially plugged water distribution tube, as someone else mentioned. A full proper valve job means pulling the entire engine. I am hoping to avoid that until winter.

This one I found does 45 deg and 30 degree at 2" and under. 

 

Thx. Keith

 

 

Edited June 14, 2017 by keithb7

[Don Coatney]

That tool does have abrasive cutters so it should work to clean up hardened exhaust valve seats.

[keithb7]

Thought I would post an update for those following along. 

I have been working on puling the valves without the spring compressor tool. It's in the mail, but I want to continue to move ahead in the mean time. It's struggle with what I have been using. However I am making progress.

I cannot get the bent valve out without the spring compressor it seems. Hopefully it will allow me to do that. Otherwise what are my options? Cut the valve spring with a small cutter disc to release tension? I went ahead and ordered all new valves, full set of spring and retainers. All new head bolts. New water distribution tube as well.

Not much left to do other than pull the rest of the valves, then wait for parts and tools to arrive.

[55 Fargo]

Hey once those valves are cleaned aup, here is my engine, it most likely will need boring and new pistons and rings, valve grind possibly.

I am very tempted to run it as is on the floor and see what it does.

Your engine with a valve job, might be good for a while.

 

Edited June 14, 2017 by 55 Fargo Spitfire

[dale]

Looks like a spring replacement is in order.

[keithb7]

My tooling has finally arrived! The right tool makes the job so much easier. I pulled the remaining valves all out this evening using the valve spring compressor tool. Can you spot the bad valve?

Several of the valves above I cleaned out of boredom, waiting for parts and tooling to arrive. 

Several of the exhaust valves looked like this:

Here is the vintage valve seat cutting tool. The pilot goes down in the valve guide. It's a 45 degree cut. First time for me doing this job, so any tips on grinding the seats are appreciated.  Use a drill? Forward and reverse? The tool came with several course and fine pieces of replacement emery cloth.

 

Edited June 22, 2017 by keithb7

[DJ194950]

Does the tool guide fit tightly in the guides?- it should. Have you replaced the valve guides or checked them for where?

If it moves around now, you will Not center the valve seat grinding (sanding) them. Not good for longevity, good seals.

Appears to me the drive end of the tool is meant to be done by hand slowly-not by powered tools.

DJ

[Andydodge]

Keith..........have been following your exploits and that pic of all the valves out made me laugh........lol.........I reckon you could fix that valve with a hammer in a vice...........lol............a new meaning on the leaning tower of power and I think the valve edges may have seen better days........again, maybe chuck the valve in a drill and have at them with a flat bastard file..........or maybe not....lol.....you are doing good tho'.........andyd   

[keithb7]

Thanks folks. The valve guides do show some wear. The pilot for the tool fits tight in most guides. I suspect one or two are close to out of spec. I have not rebuilt one of these engines before. This is my first time going in. I suspect to change the guides you need to pull the cam and roll the engine over?Use a punch and from the basement, push them out toward head deck. Am I right? 

The engine ran pretty good until the bent valve incident. It did not burn oil. The car is new to me and I'd really like to get some use out of it this season. So I am attempting to perform a patch job. This repair was unplanned so I am trying to deal with it without having to pull, and completely rebuild the engine. Sure, it is due, by the looks of things. However, I'd like to squeeze the summer out of the car, by patching it up. I went in far enough that I figure I might as well put in all new valves, springs, and cut new seats. A new head gasket, new head bolts, new intake & exh gaskets, and run 'er. If she fires up and runs good again, I plan some short trips in town to local car shows for the summer. That's it. Then come fall, I'll tear the engine out for a full rebuild over the winter. That's the plan. Maybe it's full of holes. We'll see once I button it back up and hit the starter.

I picked up some kerosene, off to cut some valve seats now. - Keith

 

Edited June 23, 2017 by keithb7