Sometimes this hobby just blows!

[James_Douglas]

In this case it is oil blowing into the water system.

 

I have confirmed with Phosphorescent  Dye that oil is in fact getting into the water cooling system on my 1949 Desoto. 

 

What really stinks is the engine is running real well.  If I keep running it however, I can see a repeat of last month with the oil emulsion getting into the head and creating hot spots which lead to head cracks which lead to a dead engine. 

 

After three years of restoration, this is a kick in the head.  We did make it to the one show that Sondra really wanted to make.  See photo.

 

But now I am looking at the task of sourcing another engine, building it, and then trying to do a swap with a car that does not even have a paint swirl yet! 

 

I may take the car to my place out of town and toss a cover on it for a few months and not think about it. 

 

James

 

[Young Ed]

James you've got a bad situation there. Dad and I did basically the same thing with his 51 vert. Bad rebuild job or sat too long in the shop and got contaminated. Either way at 172 miles on a freshly restored car we were swapping engines. Take your time go slow and use a lot of blackets etc to protect everything!

[Don Jordan]

It's a beautiful car. If it was a bucket the decision would be easy. Once it's fixed and you're motoring down the highway with the wind in your hair it will be a memory of the past. I know how you feel. Every time I get a little money in savings the god of old cars sends me a problem that will cost that exact amount of money. I've resigned myself to the fact that so far I'm told you can't take it with you.

[Dodgeb4ya]

Thats a very odd situation you have there James. It does look like a completey different engine is in order. Possibly why it ended up sitting till you got it or the previous owner.

Put it on the back burner to clear your mind till you are ready to have at it!

You have had your share of frustrating flathead issues. Sorry to hear that.

Bob

[Frank Elder]

James, sometimes time apart will give you a new perspective whether it has tits or tires, it doesn't seem to matter........my wife hates it when I say that tho..lol.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Frank Elder

[Jeff Balazs]

James;

Sorry to hear this. Your car is a real beauty though......fwiw: you deserve to have it back on the road.

 

Jeff

[littlemo]

I agree, that is "one beautiful ride" !!! Take a deep breath, reorganize, and look at it as a "new road to travel" !!!  Good luck, hang in there !!!       Cass, alias littlemo...

[ledfootslim]

Sometimes a little break helps you get excited about digging back in; after about a week of my 1948 Desoto running great......it died, and could not be revived. Eventually, after I took a week long sabbatical, we pulled the fenders off and performed a valve job and lapping, even though it had been done just a few years ago, and she fired right up! Hang in there, and I would think it might be easier to do the engine work and pulling with the fenders off, but that is my opinion, I haven't tried it with the fenders on.

[pflaming]

How many ways can oil get into the water? Head gasket, simple fix; oil pump?? I don't know but why not isolate that culprit and fix it?

What ever, that is a NICE car and I understand the down side of redoing what was once done. Lost six months due to a fire but. . . it's either quit or get back to work and I've chosen to get back to the task. Best wishes to you.

[James_Douglas]

Thanks for the kind words everyone.  What a PITA this is.  I strongly suspect that the latent water in the bottom of the cooling jacket must have found a porous spot.  When sitting for 40 years it probably rusted just  little hole down into the oil gallery. 

 

If you look at the attached photo, you will get the idea.

 

I will toss a blanket on it and think about it in a month or so.

 

James

[Young Ed]

Thanks for the kind words everyone.  What a PITA this is.  I strongly suspect that the latent water in the bottom of the cooling jacket must have found a porous spot.  When sitting for 40 years it probably rusted just  little hole down into the oil gallery. 

 

If you look at the attached photo, you will get the idea.

 

I will toss a blanket on it and think about it in a month or so.

 

James

 

Could this problem be solved with a sleeve rather than an entire new engine?

[Dave72dt]

Could this problem be solved with a sleeve rather than an entire new engine?

If it was water into the oil, possibly.  Oil into water, would need to locate where in the oil galley the leak is, be able to access it, both unlikely and/or near impossible.

[TodFitch]

Over on the AACA forum a fellow with the ID of Barry Wolk has a long thread worth reading on "1932 Ruxton, Or how I became an unwitting restorer." Apparently the water jacket on the engine had real issues and getting a new engine block was not possible. So they used some sort of cement that has the same thermo properties as cast iron to seal the water passages. I am wondering if, worse comes to worse, that might be an option for your engine.

 

AACA thread is at http://forums.aaca.org/f169/1932-ruxton-how-i-became-unwitting-365342.html

And an earlier thread about it with more on the cement is on the Lincoln forum at http://www.thelincolnforum.net/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=44158

[Tom Skinner]

James,

Good Luck, stay with it, you have a really nice ride there.

Tom

[1941Rick]

Are you getting water into the oil?

If the water jacket rusted into an oil gallery you would get water into the oil when the engine was not running. I have a hard time accepting the rust theory. But never say never.

Head gasket would not put oil into coolant as there is no oil to the head. Coolant would get into oil with a bad gasket, around the rings.

Are you running a pressure cap on the rad?

Is there an engine oil cooler?

In all my years I have only seen oil in water when an oil cooler fails. Even then you get water in the oil as well. Talking industrial engines now.

Don't give up on it until you can say "this is the problem". I never accepted the "I think this was it" from my mechanics. Would send them back to the job to find the problem.

Its frustrating at times, but its part of the game.

Taking a step back is sometimes the way to go.......good luck

[Dave72dt]

Oil pressure is higher than coolant pressure so oil pressure wins when face to face.  With no oil pressure against it and water's natural cohesive nature, it won't go through as small a hole  as oil under pressure so you end up with no water in the oil.  I've got to believe it's an extremely rare occurrence also and the few I've seen have normally been an intercooler seal or cooler that has failed, but I doubt the car has an engine cooler in it.  It's somewhat of a stretch to think it has a trans fluid cooler hooked up inside the radiator either.  The only compartments where oil and water share the same housing is the block.  All the coolant areas are above all the oil levels so the oil would have to be pumped into the coolant to get it there.   It's not going to splash up there and hit some minute hole in the water jacket, especially with no water getting in the oil. That means the oil has to be coming from one of the passages.

 

I don't know if the water pump can be greased or not.  Excessive greasing in that case, could blow the pump seal and provide some oil like contamination into the coolant system and it's possible of course, there was a pocket somewhere that wasn't thoroughly cleansed after the initial discovery and this is a residual that is being found now.  That can explain what's there now but not how it got there to start with.

 

That's my logic to the problem.  If there IS a cooler, yeah, first place to head.

[Jeff Balazs]

James mentioned that he has done a dye test. That dye may upon tear down indicate where this is happening. I wish I knew more about these blocks. It just seems to me that this has to be as a result of a crack somewhere near the valves?

 

Jeff

[Dave72dt]

I think the dye  test is more like a chem strip deal than a tracer although I think you can get some that work with uv lights.  There's some you can use for combustion gases in the coolant also.

 

A crack in that area would have to be large enough for oil to run in by gravity.  My guess is it would be large enough for coolant to come out when engine is warm and maybe under a bit of pressure and that would mean water in the oil.  That's not happening as far as we know at this point.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Dave72dt

[Jeff Balazs]

Dave;

You are probably right. I thought maybe there was pressurized oil up high in the block for the valves. I have not had one of these engines torn down that far.

Maybe a crack or fissure around the water distribution tube would allow some oil to flow into the cooling water? Again this is just a guess.

 

Jeff

[Niel Hoback]

This is adding up to a cracked block somewhere that you will not see without a complete tear-down.  It doesn't sound minor at any rate.

[DJ194950]

Way out there thought.

Has anyone ever added a soluble oil to the radiator?

 

Many years ago when working on bigger used, just bought, Rough terrain forklifts  my rental co. always flushed the radiator and then added antifreeze,

some water. 1 cup of soluble oil and a can of bars leak to every motor just before topping off rad. while running- Most of which where Chrysler flat heads

 

Per the older owner instructions!

 

Open the rad. cap and always had an oil slick look on top.

 

Oil in water of the engine oil type will congeal into a gooey mess and Not mix when heated just make a mess.

 

I know a very, very long shot!

 

DJ

[Jeff Balazs]

I have not but I have a friend who runs it in a early 70's Chevy Truck. He swears by the stuff.

It doesn't seem very likely though. I would assume the test dye was put in the crankcase.......and that shouldn't show up in the cooling system.

 

Jeff

[DJ194950]

Guess I should add that I've never added soluble oil and Bars Leak to anything that was working OK.

Even then-No soluble oil! 

 

DJ

[James_Douglas]

Hi Guys,

 

Oil in the water.  No water in the oil.

 

There are no oil galleries above the centerline of the camshaft bearing bores in a flathead six.

 

Someplace, under pressure, oil is being pushed into the cooling system.

 

The cooling system was cleaned very well.  We had the head off, the pump off, the pan off, and the manifolds.  No visible problems anyplace on the block we could see.

 

I pulled the valves and did not see anything in the intake or exhaust ports, but this is not of much concern as the oil never gets close to those.  Water yes, oil no.

 

If you look at the attached, you will see the oil path. 

 

One thing I was thinking, short of taking the engine out, is to drain the water out.  Put a pre-oiler on the car.  Run pressurized oil with the dye in it and then use a bore scope through some of the engine head bolt holes to look down into the water jacket and see if I can spot the problem spot.  If I am lucky and the hole/crack is BEFORE the main bearing oil gallery I can make a sleeve and tap it in.  If it is after the main oil gallery (at a 90 degree angle down) then the crankshaft would have to come out to drill a hole up into the sleeve.  In that case, then I may as well just toss the block and build a fresh one.

 

James 

[Jeff Balazs]

James;

It might be worth pulling the oil pressure relief valve and inspecting the bore there for a crack.

Another test you could try would be to drain the oil......leave the plug out..... and put a pressure test on the cooling system. I don't know if your cooling system is up to this test but I had 12# on mine for well over an hour. Something like this could force a leak to show up in the crankcase.

 

Jeff