Questions about trailer towing with my D25

[bamfordsgarage]

We've been planning to drive my '24 Model T Speedster to Oregon for an event on Labour Day weekend but I am now considering trailering it out there — the idea would be to have a real period look with the beat-up '47 Dodge pulling an even rougher-looking '30s trailer carrying a '20s sort-of race car.

I've been offered a home-built job based on an old car frame utilizing what is thought to be a '30s Mopar front axle. It needs some different decking and lights but those are straightforward.

The trailer would end up at 500-600 lbs and the car is about 1,500. In Alberta we need supplemental brakes on a trailer if the loaded weight is over 2,000 lbs. I have no 12vt available so would use hydraulic surge brakes actuating the drums still present on the trailer axle. I've looked under the car with an experienced hitch guy and we've found what looks like good solid mounting points for a custom hitch (tongue only for looks, not a receiver type)

This is still very much in the thinking stage and I welcome comments from those who have pulled anything similar with a basically stock engine — we have to cross the Rockies — and also any suggestions about a sturdy add-on hitch.

The crummy photos show the front axle (trailer is upside down) and a bit of backing plate detail... the axle curves down in the centre and also to the front (or maybe the back). Does this look like '30s Mopar?

[Rusty O'Toole]

I think I know what you are getting at. Would like to point out a few things.

I am sure that in the forties, someone towed a race car around to various tracks, on a home made trailer, with a 40s Dodge.

But that was a long time ago when the car and trailer were 70 years younger than they are now and road conditions a lot different (slower and less crowded).

They probably never went over 40 MPH and usually around 30.

They did make trailers from old car axles. They were not very good or reliable, the tires and wheel bearings being severely overloaded. Blown tires and broken spindles were not unknown.

I'm not saying what you want to do is impossible. Just not very practical.

By the way you can use a modern trailer, or trailer axle with 12 volt brakes. They will work on 6 volt. Just turn the brake controller up. Usually they are so fierce you have to turn the voltage down.

[Rusty O'Toole]

The axle looks like a Dodge truck axle. They had an I beam axle with a forward bend in the middle. This was for engine clearance, they wanted to push the engine as far forward as possible. Have seen the bent axle on 1938 Plymouth as well but that big rack of springs makes me think truck axle. Probably from the fifties.

As there is almost a month to labor day you may be able to get there on time if you hurry.

I wouldn't want to be behind you when you are crossing the rockies.

[Rusty O'Toole]

Seriously, I recommend you use a late model pickup truck or car, with a good Reese hitch, and a new trailer with new tires and electric brakes.

[TodFitch]

Seriously' date=' I recommend you use a late model pickup truck or car, with a good Reese hitch, and a new trailer with new tires and electric brakes.[/quote']

We're dealing with a fellow that recently drove a 65 year old car, basically stock, as far north as you can go in winter in North America.

Looks more like a truck axle than a passenger car axle to me which, I guess, means that it may have fairly high load rating.

[ptwothree]

Most racers back then couldn't afford the luxury of a trailer. Most used a tow bar. Home built to be sure. Could be a bit hairy on the downhill parts of the Rockies but it'd be authentic!

[DJ194950]

Shurge brakes actuated by the trailer pushing forward against the tow vechicle to apply brake pressure to the trailer are ok with Short single axle trailers or longer Dual axle trailers, but you always get some initial push from the trailer. Single axle trailers load and unload foward pressure as the trailer moves up and down over bumps much more than a dual axle trailer but still have some of the same effect, only less. On a perfectly smooth road, no problem, but on a rough road and trying to slow down, the brakes will become intermintent,

braking then nothing,pushing again until trailer brakes come on then and off again. Not good with 2000# as stated.

I would suggest a new dropped axle with electric brakes for this trailer/load.

Newer springs? Actually these trailer parts are reasonably priced, from past experience in the rental business.

Safety over looks! Splash mud over everthing before starting?

Keep the rest of the old time appearence.

Jealous about your trips but really enjoy your sharing,

Doug

[55 Fargo]

We're dealing with a fellow that recently drove a 65 year old car, basically stock, as far north as you can go in winter in North America.

Looks more like a truck axle than a passenger car axle to me which, I guess, means that it may have fairly high load rating.

They also drove to Hershey Swap meet, 2 years ago, then south to Florida, across the deep south then north to Alberta Canada. I believe they also drove from Alberta soutwest to Arizona a few years before/ The arctic adventure ended up in Inuvik, on the arctic ocean, in early March, that was all through the rockies, BC, NWT, Yukon, Alaska.

Chris and Jerry are brave souls, modern day explorers, they have my utmost respect and admiration.

Now Rusty-Crusty, how about some supportive advice, you sound like all those trailer queen owners, that need a 3/4 ton diesel with all the trimming, to haul there covered trailer to the Concourse show..........bah

Edited August 3, 2012 by Rockwood

[Frank Elder]

Seriously' date=' I recommend you use a late model pickup truck or car, with a good Reese hitch, and a new trailer with new tires and electric brakes.[/quote']

You haven't read any of Bam's adventures have you?????

Another round of pi$$ poor advice from the tool.....Bam is the king of make do with what you got.....not with what you can buy.

He strives to make everything he drives and uses on his cars period correct, in fact when the d-25's heart was rebuilt that was the most modern motor he had worked on .....

[T120]

And... Who else can say?... "Yeah, drove 'cross North America in a 64 year old Dodge with the engine in need of a rebuild,even climbed Pikes Peak, made it back to Edmonton, rebuilt the engine and then headed North......."...and the story goes on - Chris, "Go for the gusto"

Edited August 4, 2012 by Ralph D25cpe
punctuation :)

[Plymouthy Adams]

a well engineered hitch will go long in safety..remember that in the old days all the hitches were bumper clamp-ons..yeah....just how safe is that compared to today's frame mounted hitches...only concern I would have here and express is attention to the braking capacity..do this upgrade and ensure trailer brakes which I know he will due to the law..and you should be fine..

[52b3b Joe]

If this mercury can do this, then your d25 will have no issues with what you want to do!!!

and this (even with the camera tilted):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySlvATogvgk

I plan on pulling a model A doodlebug with my 52 1/2 ton when its done which will be about the same weight as what your planning.

Go for it! But safety first as others have said.

[bamfordsgarage]

...I am sure that in the forties' date=' someone towed a race car around to various tracks, on a home made trailer, with a 40s Dodge...I'm not saying what you want to do is impossible. Just not very practical...I recommend you use a late model pickup truck or car, with a good Reese hitch, and a new trailer with new tires and electric brakes.

...12 volt brakes will work on 6 volt. Just turn the brake controller up...[/quote']

Rusty, good points every one, just ask my wife. Simply not to my taste — we all have our eccentricities and mine is the Full Vintage Motoring Experience. I also don't own a pickup and my modern is a FWD station wagon.

BTW, there was a Model T race series in Alberta during the late '40s with the cars running on horse tracks in various cities and towns; as it is not practical to flat-tow a Model T any great distance, most would have been trailered or driven from track to track.

I was pleased to learn that electric brakes should work fine on 6 volts — that information and Doug DJ194950's cautions on surge brakes encourage me to have a much closer look at electrics, although my positive ground could still be a problem. A modern electric brake axle under the period frame and springs would be less offensive than the hideously-modern surge brake hitch. I wonder if my spare D25 wheels would mate up to the hubs...

Tod, Fred, Ralph, Frankie, Ralph, Tim and the nameless ones, thanks for your kind words — Jerry and I sure have great fun with the old heap.

Anyway, I'm still just thinking about it. In some ways it would be more practical to just drive the T to Oregon like we did last Labour Day to Spokane... it gets better mileage than the Dodge, rehabilitating this trailer would make for a busy August, and the T would likely be quicker — it has a 47 mph sweet spot, a speed we might not often see with the Dodge and trailer combo.

Photos: First three from the '40s Alberta T Racing Series; my Speedster as it was from 2003-2011 (driven every year and never stopped or ticketed); and with the engine rebuilt and body back on the morning we left for Spokane.

[JerseyHarold]

Chris,

I heard that Model T's have a hard time going up hills because they don't have fuel pumps. Have you installed one on your T??

[bamfordsgarage]

You sorta heard right. All Model Ts were built with gravity feed and no fuel pump (and, for that matter, no water or oil pumps) and hills were sometimes a problem.

Until 1926-27 the fuel tank was generally under the front seat and even with a low-mounted updraft carburetor, the engine could starve for fuel climbing a steep hill when the tank level was low. The answer was to turn around and back up the hill, which gave good fuel pressure, a still lower gear ratio, and better oil delivery to the front rod bearings which sometimes starve for oil on long hills.

I run no pumps of any sort on my Ts, although I do use a period air pump to pressurize the tank on another gravity-fuel-feed car that otherwise has trouble even on level ground when the tank is only 1/3 full.

Edited August 4, 2012 by bamfordsgarage
speling mistak

[Robert Horne]

I would rather use my 48 Dodge to tow 2000lb, than use a 5000 lb modern vehicle to tow a 10,000 lb camper, like many people do.

Anyway, one can have just as much enjoyment on a trip getting to a destination, as when you get there.

My family and friends tow or haul, (1500 miles total), their Harley Davidson cycles to the Daytona bike week, (2 weeks), every spring. My wife and I road our Goldwing 4200 miles on our trip to Fla. We just load up our pup tent, and hit the road. It would take us 6 days to get to Fla, and 6 days on the return, two days in Fla was plenty.

Many race car trailers are very light compared to other trailers.

If you look at a pontoon boat trailer you will see that all you need is just enough material to fit what you intend to haul.

Here is a photo of a camper trailer I stripped down to use for hauling ATVs. There is just enough material to haul 3 ATVs, no problem.

Best of Luck...

[TodFitch]

...I wonder if my spare D25 wheels would mate up to the hubs...

I've gone through a number of trailer supply web sites while thinking about what it would take to make a vintage (1930s) design camping trailer and it seems like they have hubs for most every wheel bolt pattern. Does your D25 use the 5 on 4.5" that seems to be standard for full size Plymouths from '32 or '33 up? If so, those are certainly available.

[Robert Horne]

Many campers, boat trailers, and utility trailers still use the 5 on 4 1/2 bolt pattern.

My stripped down 1987 camper had 13 inch 5 on 4 1/2 wheels, 6 ply..

My boat trailer, now a tow dolly, had 14 inch wheels, 5 on 4 1/2 wheels.

My friend gave me his pontoon boat trailer wheels that are 12 inch, 5 on 4 1/2.

The 16 inch wheels from my 37 Plymouth would fit any of the trailers....

[greg g]

I might give a thought to upgrading the axle and braked hubs with modern stuff rated to exceed the weight of the trailer and load, and use modern trailer tires with the correct load range, then keep the looks of the rest of the trailer. Looks like you could also lighten the trailer a bit by removing wood decking except where the T wheels need to be.

I had a set up for my Bug Eye sprite. Car weighed about 1300 lbs, trailer less the 250.

I towed it without trailer brakes with a Volvo 122s, a Nissan Stanza, a Mazda Rx4, and a Datsun 1600 King cab Pickup truck. Granted I did not cross the Rockies, but I never felt under powered or under braked Drivig all over NY and PA. most of those vehicles had less power and torque than the D 24, and probably less brakes also, although the mazda and Datsuns had front disc brakes.

[bamfordsgarage]

I might give a thought to upgrading the axle and braked hubs with modern stuff rated to exceed the weight of the trailer and load, and use modern trailer tires with the correct load range...

I found there is lots of trailer hardware out there that would do the job, although I would have drawn the line at modern wheels and tires — I have a couple weathered 16" Mopar rims that have just the right look albeit shod with new 600x16 bias tires.

However, I have abandoned the project for at least the time being. Reasons include tight timing to get this job done before Labour Day along with remaining work on the Model T and also a bit on the Dodge ahead of a long trip.

The Lady Michelle and I drove the D25 400 miles thru central Alberta and the foothills this weekend — the temperature gauge ran high during the heat of the day and while there was no boiling or coolant loss it suggests the radiator etc may not be up to the task of mountain towing.

Additionally, my fuel costs would be higher and travel speeds slower than just driving the T— on the other hand we would have enjoyed comfort en route and the time-warp coolness of using the old car to pull a still older trailer carrying an even even older car. Dang.

Thanks again to all who offered opinions, suggestions and encouragement. Much appreciated.

[Plymouthy Adams]

dang..I could have hooked you up with a nice set of artillary rims..

[Rusty O'Toole]

They also drove to Hershey Swap meet, 2 years ago, then south to Florida, across the deep south then north to Alberta Canada. I believe they also drove from Alberta soutwest to Arizona a few years before/ The arctic adventure ended up in Inuvik, on the arctic ocean, in early March, that was all through the rockies, BC, NWT, Yukon, Alaska.

Chris and Jerry are brave souls, modern day explorers, they have my utmost respect and admiration.

Now Rusty-Crusty, how about some supportive advice, you sound like all those trailer queen owners, that need a 3/4 ton diesel with all the trimming, to haul there covered trailer to the Concourse show..........bah

I gave him a hell of a lot more supportive advice than you did. Including suggestions for how to do what he wanted to do safely with the old car and trailer, plus another suggestion of how to do it even more safely (with a newer car and trailer).

We are still waiting for your brilliant advice.

[55 Fargo]

I gave him a hell of a lot more supportive advice than you did. Including suggestions for how to do what he wanted to do safely with the old car and trailer' date=' plus another suggestion of how to do it even more safely (with a newer car and trailer).

We are still waiting for your brilliant advice.[/quote']

I didn't realize I was required to offer advice, Rusty,maybe I should offer you the same advice that got you banned, but not going to lower myself.

I dunno Rusty, do you always feel the need to be Mr Right, or what seems to be your trouble, as you sure seem to stir it up on this forum. Really,I guess at the end of the day,as long as you think your the "Go To Guy", how can anyone be of help to you.

I think you have plenty of knowlegde,and good ideas, but you seem to be the type who cannot admit when He is wrong, or when He does not know.

Anyway maybe you should follow your own advice ,and get good and drunk tonight.

Looks like Chris came to His own conclusions this week, while you were in the "Dog House". Hey Rusty, have a good evening, no hard feelings and all.