Water pump replacement

[Rodney Bullock]

The wife and I took a tour of the area in the Plymouth after the storm. I had greased the water pump the day before and it stopped all that noise. We rode for a good while and the noise returned. :mad:I will have to replace the pump. I call napa and they should have some by sept 10 I called my good friends at Burnbaum's and they had it on the shelf. I will be replacing it as soon as it gets here.

Question, I have looked at a number of threads on the subject of internal and external by-pass water pump I know I have a internal. My question is can I take that pump off without removing the fan,radiator,hood. As you all know I have a 1940 with the butterfly set up. It would be a headache to remove all that. In the achives Jim said he did it without removing the fan Jimand others can you chime in. Thanks:)

[TodFitch]

Don't know about the 40 for sure, but on my 1933 you can get the pump off without removing the hood or radiator. I usually end up scraping my knuckles on the radiator when getting the fan bolts off...

[Don Coatney]

The fan is bolted to the water pump. Are you asking if you can remove the water pump with the fan still attached? I am not sure that is possible as the pully may be in the way of the bolts. But I am not 100% sure.

[Young Ed]

Rodney you are probably getting a rebuilt pump instead of a new one. Also if you have the original engine your 40 should be external bypass.

[greg g]

If you can get the bolts holdig the fan to the pump, you chouls be able to get the pump off without pulling the radiator. I know On mine I can not as when I swapped engines, I just assumed that the spacers that were between the fan on the old set up needed to be on the new when I swapped engines. And since I had the radiator out it wasn't and issue on reassembly.

But I only have about 3/16 of an inch between the heads of the bolts and the radiator core. So it depends on how much room you have with your set up.

[Young Ed]

Greg on my p15 I couldnt do it either. I had to pull my radiator twice last summer when I changed the pump. The first time I changed it the gasket failed right away so it all had to come out again. Could be the result of too many front end collisions making mine outta wack.

[desoto1939]

Rodney,

i have a 39 Desoto and have removed the pump several times. This is what needs to be done.

1. Loosen the generator and remove the fan belt

2. Drain the radiator

3. You will need a 1/2 wrench. I have a fan blade tool that makes it very easy to remove the bolt without scrapping your knuckles.

4. remove all 4 bolts in the fan pul the fan off the hub. Then pull the hub off the water pump.

5. Take off allthe hoses to the pump and radiator.

6. Take the bolts that hold the wp to the block

6a. Remove backing plate watch how the bolts go onthe unit ther is one that is differnet.

7. Put the backing plate backonthe back of the pump with new gasket.

8 put the pump back on the block attach hoses and bypass on top of pump.

9 attach the hoses

10 Fill with Green antifreeze do not do not use the extended style antifreeze.

11. Add in a can of water pump rust inhibutor get from NAPA.

12. I also add in 2 pints of Radiator relief. This helps with the cooling it is very similar to Wetter water.

Rich HArtung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[plymouthasc]

From the 1940 service manual:

Remove the fan belt and disconnect the water pump hose. Unfasten the pump from the engine and push the pump against the radiator core. With stud pliers or a pipe wrench used on the studs begween the pump and the block, remove the studs and lift off the pump and fan balde assembly. To facilitate installation, clean and oil the threads of the studs so they may be installed without difficulty. Make sure all mating surfaces are clean, use new gaskets and attach pump securely to cylinder block.

[Mark D]

I completed the water pump replacement in a little under three hours without pulling the radiator. By and far the most difficult thing was reinstalling the fan blade. I'd suggest chasing the fan bolt threads with a die and running them into the water pump mount before you reinstall the pump. By in far, the worst part of the whole task was the hour+ spent trying to get the old bolts to catch in the new threads. There's not much room to get a socket there, so you'll be stuck using an open end box wrench.

A few weeks after the install I took a rode trip up to the WPC meet in St. Johnsbury where I promptly developed an intermittent water pump squeak. Greg G took me down to the local autoparts store and had me buy some water pump lube. A pint went right into the radiator and I haven't heard a peep outta the pump since then.

Good luck and go slow so the radiator doesn't bite your knuckles too much.

[desoto1939]

In the attached picture is a tool to the right of the hammer, It is a fan blade tool. This is a thin flat pice of metal with a short 1/2 inch socket that is welded onto the bar.

This permits you to reach into the tight space between the radiator and the fan to un loossen the fan blade botls.

After the fab belt has been remove you then put the tool onthe fanblade bolt then spin the fan in a clockwise manner and the fan blade bolt is removed. You do this for each bolt. Do the opposite to install the bolt.

I can take measuerment on this tool if needed. This is an old mechanics tool and stopps you from ahving those scrapped knuckles. I have used this several times and it has saved my hands.

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[Rodney Bullock]

I have a 1951 Plymouth 217 it has an internal bypass. I don't know what happened to the original motor. I think I like this one better;) it's fast. I think I must have tightened the belt to much when I built this car the pump should have lasted longer. I would like to removed the fan and the pump as a unit. From Don's pic's I don't think I can. I think I have a wrench like that in my box to get to the fan bolts. I will look.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Rodney Bullock

[Mark D]

Rich - all I can say is; ingenious, wish I new about that tool a couple months ago...

Have you used it? Does it stay on the head of the bolt as you spin the fan?

[Young Ed]

Rich - all I can say is; ingenious, wish I new about that tool a couple months ago...

Have you used it? Does it stay on the head of the bolt as you spin the fan?

I've used a very similar one and yes they work great. At least into the 70s they were available from snapon and probably all the other major tool makers.

[Flatie46]

I wonder if the new pump you get will have the grease fitting or be a sealed unit? I'll be buying one this week for my sons '52 Plymouth. I think I'll keep the one that comes off of it and put a kit in it [if you can still get a kit]. Be nice to have around just in case.

[Rodney Bullock]

I wanted the non grease fitting pump. They said it would be a perment seal. It does not have a fitting.

[Alshere59]

Napa carries them its a universal for both internal and external bypass. Mine was new and not rebuilt with no grease fitting. $71 and the part number is TFW 42554 and it is a special order as Rodney discovered.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Alshere59

[Andydodge]

Rodney I think all the new pumps that are around now have sealed bearings, which are probably a better bearing than the original greasable type anyway.........also I replaced the pump on my 1941 P11 Coupe a yr ago, enough clearance to undo the fan & pump without pulling the radiator, apart from draining it, undo the generator, & lower hose.........not a difficult job........andyd

[Don Coatney]

Problem with the water pumps with the grease fitting is if you give it that last squirt from the grease gun it will blow out the seal because there is too much internal hydraulic pressure. A grease gun can produce a tremendious ammount of pressure once the hydraulic connection is sealed (free of air) and intact.

I once was in charge of two coal fired boilers requiring an annual pressure check. To do this pressure check the water side of the boiler was saturated (filled) with water to the higest point. Then a grease zerk was installed at this higest point. Using a hand operated grease gun, grease was pumped into the sealed water side until the internal pressure exceeded the normal working pressure of the boiler. Liquids (grease and water) do not compress.

[TodFitch]

Problem with the water pumps with the grease fitting is if you give it that last squirt from the grease gun it will blow out the seal because there is too much internal hydraulic pressure. A grease gun can produce a tremendious ammount of pressure once the hydraulic connection is sealed (free of air) and intact.

I once was in charge of two coal fired boilers requiring an annual pressure check. To do this pressure check the water side of the boiler was saturated (filled) with water to the higest point. Then a grease zerk was installed at this higest point. Using a hand operated grease gun, grease was pumped into the sealed water side until the internal pressure exceeded the normal working pressure of the boiler. Liquids (grease and water) do not compress.

I'll not dispute the fact that water and grease are effectively incompressible. But the water pump on my 1933 has a hole near the grease fitting where excess grease escapes to make a huge mess inside the pulley area (pulley and hub are integral on the 1933 pump). At least on that pump it seems like it would be hard to get too much pressure in the grease cavity.

[RobertKB]

Rodney, water pumps with no grease fittings are the only way to go in my opinion unless you are having the car judged. All my flatties have water pumps with no grease fittings. I only take originality so far and the new water pumps are just better. Also, you are supposed to use a special water pump grease if they have a grease fitting, not just plain old chassis grease. I also have no trouble changing the water pumps on my cars without removing the radiator. Things are tight but not unworkable. Just be careful when you loosen the fan bolts as you can scrape your fingers or tear a nail. I know from personal experience!

Edited August 30, 2011 by RobertKB

[desoto1939]

Rich - all I can say is; ingenious, wish I new about that tool a couple months ago...

Have you used it? Does it stay on the head of the bolt as you spin the fan?

Yes the socket is deep enough to hold onto the bolt head. I have been thinking of trying to make some of these and sell them. I have used this tool several times over the past 25 years of owning my 39 Desoto. As stated in a posting snapon also had these. They do come up on ebay. If you can get one do buy one they are well worth the money and also worth not getting skinned knucles and the frustration of trying to the bolts in and out.

If therer is any interest please let me know an I will see if I can get some made.

Rich Hartung

desoto1939@aol.com

[John Mulders]

I second that, water pump replacement was one of the first things I did.

tight but possible.

Watch those knuckles

John

[Dodgeb4ya]

I think most of the new Napa and other replacement pumps have no grease fittings.

I have always used either a 1/4" flex head ratchet or a flex head ratcheting wrench to remove the fans on all my 1946-52 6 and 8 cylinder cars and trucks. Of course nimble strong fingers are a requirement too.

Fast and easy!

Bob

[Rodney Bullock]

I agree with you guy's a water pump that is sealed is better. Don, I was always scared of pumping grease in that water pump. I know I did not use the correct grease as my grease gun only has chasis grease in it. So if that's what made it fail it's my fault. That pump has always been suspect. I have that wrench someplace and I can't find it:rolleyes: just when you need something. I think I now have the confidence to do it.

PS, Bob do I see two grease fittings on your pump?

[Flatie46]

I know most people would rather have a sealed bearing as there is basically no maintenance but the way I always looked at it was that the sealed bearing will eventually loose what grease it has over time but cannot be replaced. If you have a grease fitting you can add it back to the seal/ bearing. Don I agree alot of people do more harm than good with a grease gun. A little goes a long way and the seal is easily blown. In most seals in the suspension I'll add it till the seal just begins to swell. I know on a water pump you can't see the seal so you kinda have to guess. My sons car has been parked for a couple years at different times. Most of the time if a water pump sets a couple years the seal dries out and after driving it a while she starts to leak. Being it had the fitting, we were able to grease it and not replace the whole pump.

Also, I haven't used speacial water pump grease in my pumps. I bought a tube of marine grease. That's what I've always used, I'm not reccomending it. It may not be the right stuff for it, just saying thats what I've used. To each his own on the seal, I can see both sides. Just my two cents.