Seat Belts

[kencombs]

On 10/8/2023 at 1:02 PM, Eneto-55 said:

But the question I still have is whether this type of injury is because the upper body is flung forward, or if the vehicle frame collapses behind the front axle, pushing the steering column back into the driver's chest.  I

 

from my observations at the salvage, most were due to the body moving forward, not  the wheel moving rearward.   The exceptions were almost always a car hitting a low, solid obstacle such as a concrete end of a culvert, or a high hit levering the frame upward and back.. 

 

But, in the case of  pickups, especially the 54 up, the steering gear is outside the frame in front of the axle and vulnerable to impact directly on it.  So it can move independent of the frame with a really solid hit.

 

Early seat belts, starting with the 56 model year with some makers were  only lap belts.  And the early shoulder harnesses had no effective inertia reel so a lot of upper body movement happened.   Late stuff actually tightens the belt before much, if any movement.   Since I'll be using salvage belts or aftermarket I'll plan on no active restraint only the initial 'snugness'.   So some movement is likely, thus my new column.

[Malu]

On 10/8/2023 at 1:41 PM, Los_Control said:

I do not know about the cars, our trucks have a seat base that is brazed to the floor. It is mounted pretty solid to the cab.

Then the lower seat tracks will unbolt from the base.

I'm suggesting that a guy could remove the seat, then reinforce the 18 gauge base with some 3/16" metal. then attach the lap belts to the base.

It would be just about the same as a factory installation with the belts bolted to a reinforced floor?

 

Now my base is already modified some for installing bucket seats. It would not be a big deal to add lap belts to it also.

The belts would work the same for a factory bench seat or buckets.

 

In my case I have mid 90's Chebby Silvarado seats, if you get into the 2000's, they come with 3 point shoulder harness built into the buckets.

They should bolt right into place as my existing seats .... so I'm not spending a lot of time yet on them ... just replace the seats when I find some.

 

 

 

 

Yes Los_Control, I was thinking on the same lines & I have a 1993 6.2 Chevy with the same seats in it with a center console & cup holders. I'm so glad I joined this forum. Just measured the Dodge PU and I can't get the console in. But I do have a narrower one that might fit.  

[Malu]

2 hours ago, kencombs said:

 

from my observations at the salvage, most were due to the body moving forward, not  the wheel moving rearward.   The exceptions were almost always a car hitting a low, solid obstacle such as a concrete end of a culvert, or a high hit levering the frame upward and back.. 

 

But, in the case of  pickups, especially the 54 up, the steering gear is outside the frame in front of the axle and vulnerable to impact directly on it.  So it can move independent of the frame with a really solid hit.

 

Early seat belts, starting with the 56 model year with some makers were  only lap belts.  And the early shoulder harnesses had no effective inertia reel so a lot of upper body movement happened.   Late stuff actually tightens the belt before much, if any movement.   Since I'll be using salvage belts or aftermarket I'll plan on no active restraint only the initial 'snugness'.   So some movement is likely, thus my new column.

Thanks Ken, I've decided to use seats out of my 1993 Chevy which was suggested by Los_Control and I hope to incorporate the seat belts with that seating arrangement. 

[Eneto-55]

4 hours ago, kencombs said:

 

from my observations at the salvage, most were due to the body moving forward, not  the wheel moving rearward.   The exceptions were almost always a car hitting a low, solid obstacle such as a concrete end of a culvert, or a high hit levering the frame upward and back.. 

 

But, in the case of  pickups, especially the 54 up, the steering gear is outside the frame in front of the axle and vulnerable to impact directly on it.  So it can move independent of the frame with a really solid hit.

 

Early seat belts, starting with the 56 model year with some makers were  only lap belts.  And the early shoulder harnesses had no effective inertia reel so a lot of upper body movement happened.   Late stuff actually tightens the belt before much, if any movement.   Since I'll be using salvage belts or aftermarket I'll plan on no active restraint only the initial 'snugness'.   So some movement is likely, thus my new column.

I didn't remember that the steering sector is ahead of the axle on the PUs, OR that it is mounted outside the frame.  But your description of the impact events makes me wonder; could the modification to the column be made under the hood instead of inside the cab?  I realize that (at least on the cars) one would have to convert the shift mechanism to some type of cable system, but the point at which the steering column mounts to the bottom of the dash is so close to the steering wheel itself, that I have not thought of any way to modify the stock column, to make it so that it would collapse on impact.  (The other big issue for the non-engineer is of course knowing how 'weak' the mechanism needs to be so that it will collapse when necessary, and NOT collapse during normal driving, or when you lay on the horn too hard....  I just know that I am not capable of determining that.)

Edited October 10, 2023 by Eneto-55

[Los_Control]

12 minutes ago, Malu said:

Thanks Ken, I've decided to use seats out of my 1993 Chevy which was suggested by Los_Control and I hope to incorporate the seat belts with that seating arrangement. 

NO  NO  NO! I never suggested you do that.

Thats what I'm doing because I'm cheap and lazy. .... My seat came in terrible condition and missing springs,  kid a block over from me advertised the chebby seats for $50.

 

I would rather drive 1.5 hours one way to a wrecking yard and choose better seats with seat belts built in ..... Simple fact, I'm to lazy to drive 3 hours and spend the time to shop for better seats.

 

Then because I'm cheap, when the $50 seats came up 1 block over .... I said I can make those work ..... I'm not saying it is my first choice.

 

It is obvious I pulled my seat base out a few years ago knowing I would do something different .... it was pretty bad.

Used a cutoff wheel and a grinder to cut the brazed welds loose from the floor. ... I had to repair some rust holes on the floor where the seat goes, and a complete new lower floor where your feet go ..... I had reason to pull the seat base out.

 

I have 10' of 1.5" x 3/16" angle iron welded in place for the new seats to mount to. .... I still have 3' leftover but that will be for the console.

I decided I liked flipping the seat base over, it was wider and flatter and more surface to weld to the floor.

The seat base is sloped & sits higher in front then the rear ... lays you back. But the Chebby seats also have the same slope .... when you combine the 2, the front of the seats are too far off the floor to be comfortable.

So I had to cut my welds loose then remove 1" off the front of the base to level it out ...... (Dear Lord please teach me to tack weld before finish welding ... Amen)

There was still a slight angle but it was ok, I learned if I switched the base from left to right & upside down it is just right for my chebby seats.

As a bonus, I will use the wider base flange to bolt the base down .... I have 10, 3'8" grade 5 bolts holding it to the floor, same 4 bolts holding each seat .... It all unbolts for removal if needed in the future .... right now I need them out to run a new wire harness under the dash. ..... It is handy to have a flat floor to lay on.

All I'm saying is I did a fair amount of fabrication to make the chebby seats work with the original base.

 

The console will be very interesting. The base of the seats are 15" apart, when you get to the base of the seat cushions, it is 7" apart.

The seats have arm rest, all we really need now is cup holders ..... there is a lot of space between the seats ..... .......You get where I'm going?

 

My suggestion was, you can remove your existing seats then add support to the seat base to mount your lap belts. Then mount your original seat back in, snake the lap belts up between the crack of the seat and call it a day ..... You do what you want.

 

[Malu]

On 10/9/2023 at 7:26 PM, Los_Control said:

NO  NO  NO! I never suggested you do that.

Thats what I'm doing because I'm cheap and lazy. .... My seat came in terrible condition and missing springs,  kid a block over from me advertised the chebby seats for $50.

 

I would rather drive 1.5 hours one way to a wrecking yard and choose better seats with seat belts built in ..... Simple fact, I'm to lazy to drive 3 hours and spend the time to shop for better seats.

 

Then because I'm cheap, when the $50 seats came up 1 block over .... I said I can make those work ..... I'm not saying it is my first choice.

 

It is obvious I pulled my seat base out a few years ago knowing I would do something different .... it was pretty bad.

Used a cutoff wheel and a grinder to cut the brazed welds loose from the floor. ... I had to repair some rust holes on the floor where the seat goes, and a complete new lower floor where your feet go ..... I had reason to pull the seat base out.

 

I have 10' of 1.5" x 3/16" angle iron welded in place for the new seats to mount to. .... I still have 3' leftover but that will be for the console.

I decided I liked flipping the seat base over, it was wider and flatter and more surface to weld to the floor.

The seat base is sloped & sits higher in front then the rear ... lays you back. But the Chebby seats also have the same slope .... when you combine the 2, the front of the seats are too far off the floor to be comfortable.

So I had to cut my welds loose then remove 1" off the front of the base to level it out ...... (Dear Lord please teach me to tack weld before finish welding ... Amen)

There was still a slight angle but it was ok, I learned if I switched the base from left to right & upside down it is just right for my chebby seats.

As a bonus, I will use the wider base flange to bolt the base down .... I have 10, 3'8" grade 5 bolts holding it to the floor, same 4 bolts holding each seat .... It all unbolts for removal if needed in the future .... right now I need them out to run a new wire harness under the dash. ..... It is handy to have a flat floor to lay on.

All I'm saying is I did a fair amount of fabrication to make the chebby seats work with the original base.

 

The console will be very interesting. The base of the seats are 15" apart, when you get to the base of the seat cushions, it is 7" apart.

The seats have arm rest, all we really need now is cup holders ..... there is a lot of space between the seats ..... .......You get where I'm going?

 

My suggestion was, you can remove your existing seats then add support to the seat base to mount your lap belts. Then mount your original seat back in, snake the lap belts up between the crack of the seat and call it a day ..... You do what you want.

 

I have the whole winter to decide. I already have the seats so, I'll play around with what I want to do. I do have a lot to do before I decide. I hope the seats work out for you. It seems you have done a lot of work to get to where your at. 

[Los_Control]

I remember you saying you want to try and keep yours as original as possible .... IIRC.

I feel the same way but within reason .... I want stock suspension, flathead motor, 4:10 rear end. .... I will get the old truck driving experience.

 

I need to rewire the truck & my generator is not putting out ..... I'm switching to a 12 volt chebby alternator and 12 volt wire harness.

Everything about 6 volt systems cost more to replace .... Cheaper , more reliable, easy to find replacement parts on the road ....Does not interfere with old truck driving experience.

I can run the slant 6 electronic ignition hack with 12 volts, .... I get a lot of advantages with 12 volts.

 

Same with the seats, A terrible old truck bench seat on a long day of cruising would be more appropriate for the old truck experience ..... I'm fine with having some comfortable bucket seats.

 

My master cylinder was shot, so I installed the Toyota Camry 2 stage master cylinder .... Not original but a improvement in my mind.

 

I'm sure I make some purist cringe on how I'm putting my truck back on the road ... I'm ok with that.

I'm totally expecting to drive the truck as a daily driver for all my needs around town. I expect to pick up greasy used engines, lumber, groceries ... go for a long Sunday drive .... I'm building it to drive. .... I kept it out of the scrapyard ..... if someone else wants to restore it after I'm dead .... I wont care .... I just want to drive it while alive.

 

With all that said, I think the chebby seats are a great choice ... my daily driver is a 1991 chebby truck ... I love the seats.

 

[Malu]

Thank you everyone, you all were very helpful and I will decide what I would like to do in regards to my seat belt dilemma. Thanks again ???

[Old CWO]

I have installed three-point retractable seat belt systems in vintage cars using a kit from this company:

 

Seat Belts (julianos.com)

[Plymouthy Adams]

I am happy to see julianos moved away from the silly assed washers they used to push as 'adquate' backing for old tired metal compromised by surface rust on each side of the panel.

[JBNeal]

additional information - seat belts

[Eneto-55]

On 10/8/2023 at 2:02 PM, Eneto-55 said:
But the question I still have is whether this type of injury is because the upper body is flung forward, or if the vehicle frame collapses behind the front axle, pushing the steering column back into the driver's chest.
 

On 10/9/2023 at 3:31 PM, kencombs said:
from my observations at the salvage, most were due to the body moving forward, not  the wheel moving rearward.   The exceptions were almost always a car hitting a low, solid obstacle such as a concrete end of a culvert, or a high hit levering the frame upward and back.. 

....

Early seat belts, starting with the 56 model year with some makers were  only lap belts.  And the early shoulder harnesses had no effective inertia reel so a lot of upper body movement happened.   Late stuff actually tightens the belt before much, if any movement.   Since I'll be using salvage belts or aftermarket I'll plan on no active restraint only the initial 'snugness'.   So some movement is likely, thus my new column.
[END QUOTE]

 

I was re-reading this now, and wonder if I understood you correctly.  I had understood your comment about "the body moving forward" as referring to the body of the driver.  Now it occurred to me that you could have meant the body of the vehicle being torn loose from the frame, and moving forward, pinning the driver between the seat & the steering column.

 

One other comment. As I recall, the shoulder belt in my 72 Dodge Coronet was adjusted as snug as you could tolerate, and it didn't give at all.  (Not even to lean forward to reach the radio more easily, or the cassette player I had mounted under the center of the dash.) So except for that inability to move much at all, it would seem to me that it would fairly effectively restrain forward movement of the torso.
 

{EDIT: I was attempting to format a double quote here, first my comment of 10-8, then Ken's response of 10-9, followed by my comments of today.  But this site doesn't do this like other forums I'm on, so it didn't come out the way I expected.}

Edited October 27, 2023 by Eneto-55
clarification

[kencombs]

6 hours ago, Eneto-55 said:

On 10/8/2023 at 2:02 PM, Eneto-55 said:
But the question I still have is whether this type of injury is because the upper body is flung forward, or if the vehicle frame collapses behind the front axle, pushing the steering column back into the driver's chest.
 

On 10/9/2023 at 3:31 PM, kencombs said:
from my observations at the salvage, most were due to the body moving forward, not  the wheel moving rearward.   The exceptions were almost always a car hitting a low, solid obstacle such as a concrete end of a culvert, or a high hit levering the frame upward and back.. 

....

Early seat belts, starting with the 56 model year with some makers were  only lap belts.  And the early shoulder harnesses had no effective inertia reel so a lot of upper body movement happened.   Late stuff actually tightens the belt before much, if any movement.   Since I'll be using salvage belts or aftermarket I'll plan on no active restraint only the initial 'snugness'.   So some movement is likely, thus my new column.
[END QUOTE]

 

I was re-reading this now, and wonder if I understood you correctly.  I had understood your comment about "the body moving forward" as referring to the body of the driver.  Now it occurred to me that you could have meant the body of the vehicle being torn loose from the frame, and moving forward, pinning the driver between the seat & the steering column.

 

One other comment. As I recall, the shoulder belt in my 72 Dodge Coronet was adjusted as snug as you could tolerate, and it didn't give at all.  (Not even to lean forward to reach the radio more easily, or the cassette player I had mounted under the center of the dash.) So except for that inability to move much at all, it would seem to me that it would fairly effectively restrain forward movement of the torso.
 

{EDIT: I was attempting to format a double quote here, first my comment of 10-8, then Ken's response of 10-9, followed by my comments of today.  But this site doesn't do this like other forums I'm on, so it didn't come out the way I expected.}

Yes I was speaking about the human moving, not the car.   The early shoulder belts were almost never used as you described as most folks didn't like the restriction.  So, they donned them loose enough to reach the radio, heater controls etc.  Thus the movement I mentioned.  Even worse, due to lack of education and laws, most were worn under the drivers rear!   Being a new driver well before lap or shoulder belts, I didn't develop the buckle up habit until much later.  And, it still isn't automatic for me.  Sometimes I find myself buckling as I drive after realizing I forgot to do so.

[TodFitch]

47 minutes ago, kencombs said:

Yes I was speaking about the human moving, not the car.   The early shoulder belts were almost never used as you described as most folks didn't like the restriction.  So, they donned them loose enough to reach the radio, heater controls etc.  Thus the movement I mentioned.  Even worse, due to lack of education and laws, most were worn under the drivers rear!   Being a new driver well before lap or shoulder belts, I didn't develop the buckle up habit until much later.  And, it still isn't automatic for me.  Sometimes I find myself buckling as I drive after realizing I forgot to do so.

You had different parents than me. My father installed seat belts in our '61 and when that was replaced with a '63 in late 1963 he installed seat belts in that. And my parents required us to wear the belts anytime we were in the car so I got in the habit of fastening the seat belt long before I started learning to drive in the late 1960s.

[Malu]

On 10/8/2023 at 9:21 AM, greg g said:

With a body on frame vehicle YOU DO NOT WANT BELTS ANCHORED TO THE FRAME.  

You don't want to be tied to the frame while the body pulls away from its base.

Hi Greg, there is no where on the frame to fasten seat belts. I thought I might look into fastening to the seat base.

[Malu]

On 10/23/2023 at 8:12 PM, Old CWO said:

I have installed three-point retractable seat belt systems in vintage cars using a kit from this company:

 

Seat Belts (julianos.com)

Thanks Old CWO, I will look into that company.

[Malu]

1 hour ago, TodFitch said:

You had different parents than me. My father installed seat belts in our '61 and when that was replaced with a '63 in late 1963 he installed seat belts in that. And my parents required us to wear the belts anytime we were in the car so I got in the habit of fastening the seat belt long before I started learning to drive in the late 1960s.

I know Tod, I will find a way to fit seat belts.

[kencombs]

2 hours ago, TodFitch said:

You had different parents than me. My father installed seat belts in our '61 and when that was replaced with a '63 in late 1963 he installed seat belts in that. And my parents required us to wear the belts anytime we were in the car so I got in the habit of fastening the seat belt long before I started learning to drive in the late 1960s.

Well, I learned to drive on a 58 Ford, new drivers ed car at school, Dad's car that I learned most on was a 54 Dodge, then 57 Plymouth.   I don't remember seeing a seat belt in any car in the wild until the early '60s and that was rare.   I know Ford offered them in either 55 or 56, but optional and few takers.   Dad's new Fury III in 65 had them,  So not different parents, different age.

[Eneto-55]

My Dad installed lap belts in the 53 DeSoto that became the family car in 1960.  I'm not certain how soon he did that, and it was also only in the front.  We did the "free range" deal in the back seat while traveling - one on the floor boards, another on the seat, and one on the package shelf.  (I felt a bit sick just now, thinking about traveling while laying on the floor boards....)  The family car before that, a 48 Dodge, I cannot remember if he had installed belts in that one. He had it just a little while after getting the DeSoto, then traded it (as I recall) for a 53 Dodge PU 3/4 ton.

 

I know there were seat belts in the 62 Chrysler, too, that replaced the DeSoto as the family car in 66.  But I don't know for sure if it came that way, or not.  I think so, because of the way the color of the belts matched the seat upholstery.  None in the back set on that one, either, as I recall.

[Dodgeed]

[Ivan_B]

That model probably needs two pillows to sit high-enough to actually see where she is going. Also, I would like to see her operating the pedals with those high-hills... Could probably use feet extension, though ?

Sorry for the off-topic.

[Plymouthy Adams]

we can tell the old folks here...they still seeing appointments of the car...

[DJ194950]

I noticed the headliner and poor condition of the sun visor  and what appears to be seat covers.  Using and old and oor condition car for seat belt ad ??

 

Poor choices on the part of the casting people for sure!

 

DJ

[Mopar-Boy]

On 10/27/2023 at 3:04 PM, TodFitch said:

You had different parents than me. My father installed seat belts in our '61 and when that was replaced with a '63 in late 1963 he installed seat belts in that. And my parents required us to wear the belts anytime we were in the car so I got in the habit of fastening the seat belt long before I started learning to drive in the late 1960s.

@TodFitch did you put belts in your 33 Plymouth?  If so, where did you attach them?  Thanks again. 

[TodFitch]

1 hour ago, Mopar-Boy said:

@TodFitch did you put belts in your 33 Plymouth?  If so, where did you attach them?  Thanks again. 

For the front seat only. Outboard used a body/frame mount bolt. Inboard used large washers under the floor. Not ideal and there are arguments against using the frame but I figured if the accident is bad enough to shear the body off it is all over anyway.