Tires wheel question

[uncleaud]

Are radial tires compatible with my original rims? The car is a 1947 Chrysler Saratoga. Somewhere I got the idea that original rims wouldn't work well with new radial tires. Just checking to see if I can just buy new tire or do I have to look for wheels too?

[Plymouthy Adams]

this is a subject that comes up often, plain and simple there are a few white papers on this.....this link has a paper within the paper.....enjoy and then report back your conclusions.

 

Mounting Radial Tires on Classic-Vehicle Rims | Specialty Equipment Market Association (SEMA)

[desoto1939]

The AACA does not approve of radial tires on the older antique cars. Their statement is that the car was engineered to use Bias Ply tires and that the front suspension was made for these types of tires.  

 

The use of radial tires is not approved because of the way the tire is designed to roll and the geometry of the frame and front suspension was not designed to handle this type of roll and so is not approved.

 

We all know that people are running radials on their antique cars.  The option is totally yours, but if you plan to have the car judged in an AACA show they will deduct major points for the radial tires.

 

Rich hartung

 

 

[Plymouthy Adams]

well there are so few 'road cars' in judging classes of the AACA  for trophy and points and thus we have the DPC with limitations on those participating in the DP Class....which are driven vehicles enjoyed by their owners that must only meet safety inspection, they are tolerant of mods and such and would be more in line to a best choice as that of a local cruise or benefit show.  There are more ins and outs to this class I am sure but this is the general outlook.  Rich may spring more or you can read about it on the AACA website.  

 

Caster is all important in setting a car up for running radials.  

[Sam Buchanan]

1 hour ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

this is a subject that comes up often, plain and simple there are a few white papers on this.....this link has a paper within the paper.....enjoy and then report back your conclusions.

 

Mounting Radial Tires on Classic-Vehicle Rims | Specialty Equipment Market Association (SEMA)

 

 I couldn't find a link to the white paper.

[Plymouthy Adams]

in the first paragraph, in red letters.....click on that

[Los_Control]

I will toss in my 2 cents. My problem with radial tires on original wheels, the newer tires are to wide for the old skinny wheels.

I have a old trailer I bought for parts and it has original 16" wheels on it with modern 235-75-16 tires.

The tire beads are sucked in on too narrow of a wheel so the crown or tread area is round & does not sit flat.

They will not wear properly or perform as you would expect. ....... Yes they do sell smaller tires that fit kinda better .... they are also shorter then what you might want.

 

In my ideal world, I like steel wheels from the 70's they are wide enough to sit a radial tire comfortably and they look good with dog dish hubcaps & beauty rings.

What I have on my truck.

I have 2 original wheels, still need 2 more for a set .... I would like to put some original bias ply tires on them & use as a extra set for dress up days.

[Sam Buchanan]

59 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

in the first paragraph, in red letters.....click on that

 

Yep, that takes you to the Wheel and Tire Council propaganda site, but no link to the white paper....that I can find.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Sam Buchanan

[Doug&Deb]

There are bias look radials available that will fit properly and are the correct height. They are not cheap however but it’s an option. Because of the design of the wheel you may or may not need to run tubes. When I had my D24 I ran radials on the original rims with no issues or leaks. My 52 Coronet has 15x7 police wheels which allows for a larger tire that matches the height of the bias tires.

[Plymouthy Adams]

well, you not sifting through all the propaganda I guess.....there is seldom a one catch all issue paper...get out of it what you put into it....there were many links on that page that led to other links.....don't follow the bread crumbs, can't find the kitchen

[Sam Buchanan]

I'm not that hungry......

 

I did poke some of the links but I suspect the white paper link is long gone since it would be over eight years old by now, the site has probably be freshened since then.

[Plymouthy Adams]

I wished when looking I had save the actual paper I read...but I got there from the link.....I pop back and forth a lot for like you said, it does not take but a minute to see the bogus and hype from tests and facts in print.....sorry I let you down....

[andyd]

I've had my 1940 Dodge since 1971, its been hotrodded since 1973 & has used radial tyres since 1975/76 on the front with alloy wheels.......rides, drives, steers in a predicable & safe way.......I'd forgotten what a "joy" it was to drive a car with crossplies until I bought the 1941 Plymouth Coupe.......what fun......all over the road like a mad womens ****...followed every mark and deviation on the road..........after 12 months I installed a set of Wheel Vintique Chrome Smoothies & Coker Classic Whitewalled radials...........a new car........much safer, easier, more predicable and just more pleasant to drive.......so yeh, its every owners choice depending on what their aim is with their car...........you makes your choice and you accept the results.........andyd.  

[bacelaw]

I just put Diamondback Auburn radial tires on my '41 yesterday.  They required tubes to work with the original rims, but made a major difference - cornering is much better, the road noise is way quieter, almost silent, no more tracking in grooves in the road.  I will say, the radials are more difficult to turn at a dead stop. But, I'm pretty happy with them.  They look very similar to the bias plys, with maybe a bit more bulging at the sidewall.  

 

I debated back and forth and read all the pros and cons.  To me, it's more important to have the modern technology of a radial. 

[FarmerJon]

17 hours ago, desoto1939 said:

The AACA does not approve of radial tires on the older antique cars. Their statement is that the car was engineered to use Bias Ply tires and that the front suspension was made for these types of tires.  

 

The use of radial tires is not approved because of the way the tire is designed to roll and the geometry of the frame and front suspension was not designed to handle this type of roll and so is not approved.

 

We all know that people are running radials on their antique cars.  The option is totally yours, but if you plan to have the car judged in an AACA show they will deduct major points for the radial tires.

 

Rich hartung

 

 

Seems like a pretty weak argument. Why not just tell the truth: Modern Radials are Ugly, and reduce the original appearance of a otherwise correct car. Limit it to period correct tires.

It is pretty easy to prove that nearly every (metal wheeled) car preforms better with radials, which is why many people ran them in the '50s and '60s as a premium tire.

Sizing of modern radials IS a concern, however.  And again, they do look stupid under an old car.

 

 

Patented in 1946, and on Markey by 1949, radials arent some newfangled thing that manufacturers had no way to account for.

Per Michelin: "Radial touring tire - 1949: the Radial touring tire is sold under the name MICHELIN X
Radial heavy truck tire - 1952: Michelin adapts the radial technique to heavy truck tires."

 

https://www.michelin.com/en/news/the-x-radial-tire-is-70-years-old/

Edited August 23, 2023 by FarmerJon

[Plymouthy Adams]

beauty is in the eye of the beholder....radials are no exception.  On the older car...one cannot expect to see the more common wheel and tire of the day as the move that direction is for handling by means of lower profiles of the sidewall and associated larger diameter rims.  Back in the original concept of the radial, tires were 83 and 80 series and I believe you will find the original X series Michelins were 80 series tires...so the look was correct except for maybe the tread pattern and initial lip of the side wall as the radial makes use of this patch for road contact in handling verse the flat faced bias and the look of the rigid edge look.  So yes on many cars the tread and edge will look a bit out of place.  Concede this to FarmerJon but with some reservation as in, if the technology made it to America back in that day, well, 50 model and up tires would have the correct look with the radial.  Slightly behind the curve was our industry verse Europe.  

[Curt Lee]

Assuming running radial tires despite appearance; what are the best steel wheels to use? Not interested in mgs or alloys, just bone stock MoPar. 15" for P15 specifically.

[bacelaw]

58 minutes ago, Curt Lee said:

Assuming running radial tires despite appearance; what are the best steel wheels to use? Not interested in mgs or alloys, just bone stock MoPar. 15" for P15 specifically.

The diamondback auburn radials look exactly like bias plys...Coker makes a radial too that looks just like the vintage bias ply.

 

 

[Booger]

1 hour ago, Curt Lee said:

Assuming running radial tires despite appearance; what are the best steel wheels to use? Not interested in mgs or alloys, just bone stock MoPar. 15" for P15 specifically.

I chose not to put on a modern tire on a 75 year old rim. Steelies are out there for around $100 ea

[Plymouthy Adams]

Steel wheels for this application from the car era disappeared from the market about 1989 with the last of the rear wheel drive cars.  FWD tend to run a lot of positive offset that will, given they fit the drums in the front, (only one that I recall and it is alloy)  likely cause for issues like the tie rods hitting the tires.  You can as suggested get steelies in a variety of diameter, widths and offset.  You will be giving up stock poverty caps in the process unless you also opt for the baby moons most have/offer optional with their wheels.  I had zero problems with Diplomat/5th Ave wheels of RWD vehicles.  Some Dakota early wheels were also 4 x 4.5 and were in 14 and 15 inch.  

[Curt Lee]

Aight then; I guess I'll be hunting aftermarket chrome or Diplomat wheels to run modern tires on, once I get to that stage. Maybe preferably the chrome smoothies because I can modify their moon caps to add Plymouth branding to them.

[Los_Control]

I am a fan of the chrome smoothies ... I think they look good.

 

Think painted wheels are my favorite. You can paint them the same body color as your car.

Solid chrome is nice, the paint just adds a little more zing to them .... thats just my personal choice.

 

This photo is from summit racing website. They sell the wheels shipped in primer you paint. Then the hub cap & trim rings they offer also.

Many places offer and sell the same or different wheels.

 

I only chose this random photo because is painted wheel, modern tire you can buy from anywhere, installed on a old car. I think it looks great.

 

[Sniper]

If you remove the aligning pin from the hubs, any mopar steelie with the 4.5" bolt pattern will fit up.

 

 

 

[Plymouthy Adams]

Many mopar wheels have 5 smaller holes between the mount holes for some of the dressing centers they had.  You need only to enlarge one of these or drill a hole for the alignment pin between your lug holes.  I would not suggest break of the pin as many folks do simply as it does support the weight of the tire and wheel assembly on install using the bolts....convert to studs...you can easily lose the pin.  

[FarmerJon]

Don't let me get yall too upset: I run radials too.

 

6 hours ago, bacelaw said:

The diamondback auburn radials look exactly like bias plys...Coker makes a radial too that looks just like the vintage bias ply.

 

 

When I buy tires, that is what I am planning on- they look much more appropriate,  and hopefully will not rub like my current fatties.

5 hours ago, Booger said:

I chose not to put on a modern tire on a 75 year old rim. Steelies are out there for around $100 ea

It is important to check old wheels carefully, fortunately it is pretty easy to spot problems with steel wheels:

Heavy rust pits-these are hard to spot with the tire on. Usually wheels that still have air in their old tire are a safer gamble than flat junkyard ones.

 

Stress cracks- around the lugs. If in doubt, have a shop magnuflux them. Or get a dye penetrant kit and check them yourself (also works on old alloy wheels)

 

Dents, bends, Wallowed out lug holes- Big ones should be obvious, tire shop can spin them to spot the rest.