Fun with no spark

[SuperGas61]

Hey, everyone. So I took the '51 Concord (218 flathead 6) out of storage a couple of weeks ago, and it ran and drove great. Decided to wash it a couple of days later, and now it turns over but won't start. I've got fuel in the carb but no spark at the plugs, and there was a whole bunch of new surface rust in the Nos. 4, 5 and 6 spark plug wells, which I'm assuming came from the water pouring in (not sure where it came in, although there was an obvious opening in the seam that runs down the center of the hood, which I've since sealed up with some clear silicone). I cleaned up the plug wells, and since I had a set of new plugs on me, threw them in (I realize I should have changed the plug wires while I was at it, too, but I didn't have any on hand, and I was being impatient). Anyway, still no start. So I just picked up a new condenser from O'Reilly's, and I'm planning to pop it in the next day or two (without taking the dizzy out, although I'm open to doing that), once the latest batch of rain comes through (the car's outside, under a cover). I've read a bunch of great posts on the site about this problem, and I realize that I'm addressing the problems in an inefficient, scattershot way, but I just wanted to post my problem and see if I'm missing anything obvious. Thanks in advance!

[desoto1939]

Did you check the gap setting on your plugs? What plug did you install.  Also remove the dizzy cap and check to see if there is any moisture inthe cap. Might have to dry out the cap. Did you push the ends of the wires firmly down onto the top of each plug.  Check the wires from the center of the coil to the dizzy cap is it firmly connected to the coil and also the cap.

 

Did you put the correct sparkplug wire back onto the appropriate sparkplug?  When changing Sparkplugs only do one plug at a time so that you do not cross the wires. Are you getting gas to the carb or are you out of gas.

 

After you get the car running go out side when it is realy dark open the hood start the car do not use a flashlght. Look to see if you are getting blue flashing from each sparkplug wire. If you are thne the wires are leaking and need to be replaced, BUT and again BUT only replace one wire at a time to insure you are connecting the proper wire fromthe dizzy cap to the appropriate plug.

 

Also check all of you wire connection to make sure they are clean and tight

 

Check on these areas and let us know what you find.

 

Rich

Desoto1939@aol.com.

[Sniper]

Simply take one plug, pull the coil wire out of the distributor, plug the spark plug into it and lay the plug on the head so that the metal housing touches the metal of the head. 

 

Have someone crank the engine over and see if that plug sparks.  If it does then everything from the coil wire back is ok, including the points.   Let us know what you find and we can go from there

[Jerry Roberts]

You didn't mention the points , they need to be clean and gaped correctly . 

[joecoozie]

I am leaning towards moisture in the distributor cap since this started happening after it rained. Try popping the cap and use a hair dryer or there is a spray that is sold which removes moisture. Then try to start it.

As far as the plug wells getting filled with water that seems to be a common problem - it used to happen to my cars if left outside in the rain - and I think you may have fixed that by sealing the hood seam.

[SuperGas61]

Hey, guys...thanks for the quick replies. I actually did check for spark, first with an inline spark checker and then with Sniper's plug-on-the-head method (and because I was alone, I put my phone in the engine bay and turned the video on for that one), but I didn't see a spark or an indication of a spark in either case, so I'm fairly sure there isn't one. I'll try to recheck it in the dark.

 

The carb is squirting fuel.

 

I also pulled the distributor cap, which was bone dry, and I marked the plug wires--I did take a couple off at one point, but I remembered that the No. 1 cylinder plug wire went into the distributor at the 5:00 position, and then it's just 5-3-6-2-4 clockwise from there, right? In any case, I didn't take any of the wires off at the dizzy end, so it should be good...

 

I put ACDelco R45 plugs in (the old ones were Autolite 303s) and gapped them to .35, per the service manual recommendation for resistor plugs...

 

I'll make sure to check the connections. I have a multimeter, but honestly, I haven't used it much, so if there are specific things that I can use it for (i.e., tracking down shorts), feel free to send your suggestions...

 

Thanks again for the help!

 

Gary

 

 

[DonaldSmith]

5:00 o'clock?  The No. 1 plug wire usually goes to the 7:00 position.  If someone gets the dizzy 180 degrees off, No. 1 will be at 1:00.  

 

If yo really meant 5:00, Check Top Dead Center for the compression stroke, and see where the rotor points.  

[Sniper]

1 hour ago, DonaldSmith said:

The No. 1 plug wire usually goes to the 7:00 position.

That is my recollection as well. 

[Tom Skinner]

Static Time it (Time it with the engine off).

There are directions in the Technical Section or FAQ Section here on the Thread for this.

In this way you should achieve a Spark at the plugs.

Good Luck!

If Static Timing doesn't work in might be your Ignition Coil.

Tom

[Plymouthy Adams]

the aforementioned 7:00 position is only if your car was properly indexed in the past to reflect this.  It is more important to ensure that at top dead center number 1 firing position that the rotor is pointing to the distributor cap tower that number one plug wire is affixed.  There is no guarantee that the 7:00 position is in play.

[Sniper]

Static timing won't fix a no spark issue.  #1 plug wire location won't fix a no spark issue.

 

Let's get a spark going then we can worry about other things. 

 

Get a meter, turn the key to run, measure the voltage at both coil terminals and let us know.  If you have a test light hook it to the terminal connected to the points, crank the engine and tell us if the light is flashing.

[Plymouthy Adams]

you are correct that it will not fix the no spark...but I would not want the man to address a timing issue when it is not needed at this time and possibly induce another problem along the one he has now....thus my post that the 7 position is NOT IN STONE....

[Tom Skinner]

Static Timing is just a cheap way to see if there will be any spark without using tools.

I think we all realize here on the thread that it fixes nothing, however, indicates something indeed is needing fixing/repaired.

Most likely, it is points, or perhaps a coil. I always look at replacing the cheapest part first. Not the most expensive first.

Measuring the Voltage at the Coil first sounds best, then.....

Tom

[Plymouthy Adams]

I always default to using tests (most always outlined in the manual) and my VOM most always correctly identifies the bad component to eliminate guesswork.  If you do not have a manual, or do not have  a firm knowledge in the operation of the system, these systems are down right generic and a good white paper found on the internet will more than guide you along eliminating guessing to what is or is not wrong.

 

In the above I am not pointing a finger at anyone and hope is it not assumed that I am....there is a reason test equipment and procedure were developed...they are cheap and easy tools to use....save you many hours, dollars and headaches....

Edited July 9, 2021 by Plymouthy Adams

[chrysler1941]

With these caps it's easier to see spark. More fun if shop lights are off

With VOM you could also measure resistance/connectivity from distributor cap to spark plug terminal-

[Sniper]

3 hours ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

there is a reason test equipment and procedure were developed...they are cheap and easy tools to use....save you many hours, dollars and headaches....

 

I am a firm believer in this.  I mentioned int eh OT forum I replaced an AC compressor in an 07 Honda hybrid.  When I was done the owner said it was acting funny on takeoff and not shifting right.  Parked it and the next day I spent the money for a decent OBDII scanner, one that will read ABS and transmission codes as well as engine ones.  Bunch of missing signals from the transmission popped up.  Turns out I failed to fully seat one of the two connectors.  If I hadn't of had those codes to point me I probably would have just eyeballed the connectors as well as I could, they are pretty buried, and said "they look good",  But I squoze a meathook in there and pushed on both, one moved and went click.  Problem solved.  Cost me $100 up front for the tool, but saved me I don;' know how many hours in the hot sun trying to guess it out. 

[Booger]

21 hours ago, Sniper said:

Simply take one plug, pull the coil wire out of the distributor, plug the spark plug into it and lay the plug on the head so that the metal housing touches the metal of the head. 

 

Have someone crank the engine over and see if that plug sparks.  If it does then everything from the coil wire back is ok, including the points.   Let us know what you find and we can go from there

1st thing I thought of. Now go bassackwards

[allbizz49]

If it ran great before you washed it, it has to be something simple. Swapping plugs, checking timing is good and all but it wouldn't have ran great before washing if they weren't right. First thing I would do is turn the ignition on and check for power at the coil. If you had it sitting in storage you could have a loose or corroded connection. Water may have gotten in there and made it worse. If you don't have power there. Check and clean your electrical connections including the ones at the switch. Good luck, hope you fix it.

[SuperGas61]

Well, you know, it's funny...because the car was turning over, I just assumed the battery was fine. The thing is, there are two batteries in there--the normal 6v, plus a 12v just for the starter. The 12v was reading fine on the multimeter, while the 6v was...dead. So yeah, a dead battery was the source of all my angst, and I took the car and the dog on a long ride yesterday... ? I'm curious to know if water from washing the car somehow contributed to the battery failure, or if it was just a coincidence. In any case, I was glad to get the rusted plugs replaced and the plug wells cleaned up, so once again, thanks for everyone's rapid responses! I'll try not to bother you for a while... ?

[wagoneer]

2 hours ago, SuperGas61 said:

Well, you know, it's funny...because the car was turning over, I just assumed the battery was fine. The thing is, there are two batteries in there--the normal 6v, plus a 12v just for the starter. The 12v was reading fine on the multimeter, while the 6v was...dead. So yeah, a dead battery was the source of all my angst, and I took the car and the dog on a long ride yesterday... ? I'm curious to know if water from washing the car somehow contributed to the battery failure, or if it was just a coincidence. In any case, I was glad to get the rusted plugs replaced and the plug wells cleaned up, so once again, thanks for everyone's rapid responses! I'll try not to bother you for a while... ?

 

Dual battery technology?! you separated the ammeter connection and the starter solenoid as two independent circuits? Could you share some pictures, and schematics on how you wired it up? Are you using the original starter but starting on the 12v? I imaging that is giving your starter some extra juice and helping with turning over the car quickly.

 

I had a dead spark issue in my truck build...turned out to be my ammeter was grounding the circuit, so the secondary was never firing. In all the painful (but fun) investigating, I did notice how "slow" the engine turns over with the existing 6v battery->starter setup. Having a second 12v battery is also clever solution to supporting modern electronics, though how do you handle charging?

[SuperGas61]

Just now, wagoneer said:

 

Dual battery technology?! you separated the ammeter connection and the starter solenoid as two independent circuits? Could you share some pictures, and schematics on how you wired it up? Are you using the original starter but starting on the 12v? I imaging that is giving your starter some extra juice and helping with turning over the car quickly.

 

I had a dead spark issue in my truck build...turned out to be my ammeter was grounding the circuit, so the secondary was never firing. In all the painful (but fun) investigating, I did notice how "slow" the engine turns over with the existing 6v battery->starter setup. Having a second 12v battery is also clever solution to supporting modern electronics, though how do you handle charging?

Hey...I wish I could help you with more details, but the two-battery setup came with the car. Not sure if the previous owner or someone else made the change, but I'll try to get some photos and some more info on the setup for you. It can only help me, too!  ??

[desoto1939]

I have a 6volt pos ground in my original 1939 Desoto. I always have good turning over power with the 6volt system. Yes with the new ethanol fuel it might be harder to start when the engine is hot but I get plenty of cranking when starting the car.

 

Check you connections and make sure they are clean with no corrosion, battery is fully charged. suggest getting a trickle charger. How old is your battery. Have you check it to see how much water or battery fluid is in each cell. Only add distilled water and not tap water.

 

Rich Hartung 

[47 Coupe Tom]

On 7/13/2021 at 8:00 AM, SuperGas61 said:

Well, you know, it's funny...because the car was turning over, I just assumed the battery was fine. The thing is, there are two batteries in there--the normal 6v, plus a 12v just for the starter. The 12v was reading fine on the multimeter, while the 6v was...dead. So yeah, a dead battery was the source of all my angst, and I took the car and the dog on a long ride yesterday... ? I'm curious to know if water from washing the car somehow contributed to the battery failure, or if it was just a coincidence. In any case, I was glad to get the rusted plugs replaced and the plug wells cleaned up, so once again, thanks for everyone's rapid responses! I'll try not to bother you for a while... ?

SuperGas61 - one of my other toys is a '57 Morris Minor. My wife and I were fortunate to live and work in Melbourne, Australia for a couple years. While we were there I found the Morris and decided to bring it home with us when we were repatriated by our employer. One of the EPA requirements to import the car was that the car had to be steam-cleaned (with a receipt to prove it) from a licensed garage. There was one nearby where we were living, so I scheduled an appointment and took her there. I could walk to where the garage was so I went home and waited for the phone call. After a few hours I got a call that they were done, but the car - which had ran great previously - wouldn't start. I walked over to the garage, and sure enough, she cranked but wouldn't fire. I asked if they had any WD-40 (a lot of things common here aren't available there), and fortunately they did. I took off the dizzy cap and blew it out with compressed air, reattached it and then sprayed the outside of the cap and wires with WD-40. The car started immediately. WD-40 ("Water Displacement formula 40) doesn't "dry" anything, but it does, literally, displace moisture from wherever it has gathered and allowed the sparks to follow their intended path, instead of shorting to the least path of resistance (via moisture).