Newbie needs help with Brakes

[RecklessBattleBorn]

I just bought a 1950 Plymouth Deluxe, the brakes are leaking like crazy and rather than just repair them I'd like to upgrade the front brakes to disc brakes. Is there a bolt on kit that anyone would recommend or a caliper, rotor and bearing combination that I can fabricate a bracket for? honestly any help in the right direction would be massively appreciated. 

[Sniper]

https://p15-d24.com/topic/28870-front-disk-conversion-project/#comments

[Doug&Deb]

I used a Scarebird kit on my 52 Coronet. It’s a bolt on with no modifications necessary other than removing the residual valve from the mc. The other kit that members of the forum use is Rusty Hope. I’m quite happy with the conversion.

[Loren]

I am not a fan of disc brakes.

I do not feel the change is worth the effort and expense.

You have to ask yourself what purpose is served by doing this?

If you want better brakes why not up grade to Chrysler or DeSoto 12 inch brakes?

They use exactly the same hydraulic parts and since they are exactly the same design, you are not re-engineering the car.

A Chrysler Windsor weights 600 lbs more and since it was a premium car it started off with better brakes than a Plymouth.

Take time to read the posts on this site and you will see the issues folks have had with this swap.

Then ask yourself are you adding value to your car or taking away value? Be honest with yourself on this question, because to some folks a dead stock car has more value than one that's been modified. Nobody knows how successful your modification is or where to get replacement parts.

Take a wheel off a Plymouth that has 12 inch Chrysler brakes and you know what you have.

Everything fits and works as the factory intended. I ask myself all the time, "Do I really think I can engineer the car better than Chrysler did?"

The answer has always been no.

My opinion is totally old school and it is just that, my opinion. It's your car do what you want but most of all have fun.

[Adam H P15 D30]

I used the Rusty Hope kit on my 49 and couldn't be happier.  Added a modern rear axle with modern drum brakes in the rear, pulled the factory check valve out of the stock master cylinder and the braking improvement was quite noticeable.  Plus you don't have to use fancy tools to get the correct adjustment.  My drum brakes worked as designed when I changed them out but I also drive mine a lot in San Francisco traffic so disc brakes are a must, if you live in a less populated (crazy) area maybe drums would do ok, NOT HERE.

https://www.rustyhope.com/mopar-disc-brakes

[Loren]

The tool issue is a real one.

For the very nice Ammco 1750 you will spend between $500 and $750!

The Miller tool set will be harder to find.

Since I have other cars with brake shoes that have to be centered, I spent the money.

I got mine from a guy who had a Dodge (sold it) and wanted his money back (he got it and made a profit too) So you can think of an Ammco purchase as a savings account deposit.

However, when a price gets too high enterprising people come up with alternatives.

One manufactured item is available from Snyders Antique Auto made for the Model A Ford.

https://snydersantiqueauto.com/Resources/en/ItemDocuments/A_2020/A2020-10210.pdf

Which gives you the instruction sheet for their tool.

One of our members here made one out of PVC pipe fittings, which I thought was very clever.

So why spend $500 to $750 on an Ammco tool?

Well it has an attachment which helps you set the tool to the exact drum size and when you get the shoes centered they are already set for the .006 clearance.

A real time saver.

That said, then there are the rear drums.

The Keyed Tapered Axles are admittedly a pain, unless of course you have the right tool!

The "New Britain #109 Hub Puller" I have was given to me. I have seen an identical one on eBay for $80 with free shipping.

A Snap-On Blue Point Hub Puller runs much more (like $450) but doesn't do the job any better.

I would not waste my money on anything less than these two.

 

So that is the full disclosure on Chrysler Brakes. You pays your money and you takes your choice.

 

[desoto1939]

Loren:

 

The ammco brake gage yes has gone up in price over the years. Along with the rear drum pullers for these older mopar cars/trucks.

 

But the Ammco brake gage 1750 is also a micrometer to insure that you are getting the brakes shoes adjusted properly.

I also have the Miller Mt19 gage that has the 7 sleeves and it does a fantastic job of getting the shoe aligned properly.

Both are very expensive to find but if you want the perfect brake job the other homemade units are ok but not as perfect as the Mopar tool and the Ammco tool that the MoPar dealerships used.

In my later Miller Tool catalogs they show the Ammco Brake gae being used instead og the Miller MT Brake gage.

 

Also there is a second tool call the trubrake tool.  This tool was also made by miller and used the sleeves. Basically with the MT 19 kit you setup all your individual shoe to the drum with on each shoe. The the trubrake tool was put onthe sleeve and used to grind down the high spot on each shoe.

 

I also have this tool. These were used prior to the Ammco Safe Arc cam driven brake shoe lining cutter.

 

So setting up the shoes to be properly set is a very intance process and takes time to get them correct so that is why these tools are needed and so very expensive.

 

I have a large collect of early Miller Tools and when you need to do some maintenace it makes the job go easier. If you want more info on this tool write to me at Desoto1939@aol.com

 

rich Hartung

 

.

[Loren]

I suppose tool collection is a new and unique hobby!

There's two aspects of the mechanical end of the car hobby.

Being able and knowledgable about keeping the cars going with the correct tools and then being able and knowledgable on how to do it without them.

It's all fun and I still love it!

 

[desoto1939]

19 minutes ago, Loren said:

I suppose tool collection is a new and unique hobby!

There's two aspects of the mechanical end of the car hobby.

Being able and knowledgable about keeping the cars going with the correct tools and then being able and knowledgable on how to do it without them.

It's all fun and I still love it!

 

So true. I have just be fortunate to live close to the Hershey Fall AACA swap meet and have been going for over 30+ years.  I also have an extensive collection of Miller Factory Tools and also a large collection of Automotive Manufacturer Catalogs such as Autolite, Moog, Thompson Products, echlin, Blue Streak Wagner Brakes Delco Shocks, Wiper motors and other important documents, Sisson Choke etc.

This is another part of the hobby that most people do not even think about. But it helps to identify the correct parts for our cars when you are at a swap meet. Just adds more knowledge about the car.

 

Rich Hartung

[Francois Pelletier]

I have converted my 1940 sedan to 4 wheel disc and could not be happier.

 

I have 2000 Ford Explorer front discs and matching calipers on the front and the whole axle and brakes from a 1999 Mustang in the back. 

It works fine with the original master cylinder with a nice firm pedal feel.

No shaking or pulling on one side or anything,

 

The original brakes were made for empty gravel roads.

 

I don't think you can safely drive in today's traffic with them. 

[desoto1939]

Info on the Miller MT19 Brake gage tool and the Trubrake Brake lining grinder. Hope you enjoy the reading and I also have both of these tools and also the Ammco 1750 brake gage tool.  The Miller MT19 takes longer to setup but also has the toe and heel of the tools set and the proper setting of 6 and 12 thousandths spacing.

 

 

 

 

 

So basically use setup each individual shoe so that the shoe is set to the drum setting  with the MT19.  Do not adjust for toe or heel. Then use the trubrake tool with the appropriate sleeve and then use this tool to remove the high sport on the lining because the shoe was set for the drum measurement. You continued the removing of the lining until it was a uniform passing against the brake shoe material. You would do this on both shoes and not they would be arced to the specific drum while on each axle. Then you adjust with the MT19 for the toe and heal setting on both shoes. Then put the drum back on and do the other side and do the same for the other two wheels.  And just think about the time it took the dealership to do this job and what it really cost back inthe 30's-50's. It was a very cheap job when considering the amount of work that the mechanic had to perform on your car.  And back then the mechanics would reline your riveted brake lining and that also took time.

 

Not like today when they just call a parts house and wait for the parts to come to the shop and then put the new shoes onthe car.

 

Back in these good old days they were true mechanics and today they are just computer technicians and the computer tells them what has to be done. The old mechanics used their knowledge to fix cars and di dnot have any computers.

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[Sam Buchanan]

15 minutes ago, desoto1939 said:

Back in these good old days they were true mechanics and today they are just computer technicians and the computer tells them what has to be done. The old mechanics used their knowledge to fix cars and di dnot have any computers.

 

Would you rather learn how to reline brake shoes or all the computer-based troubleshooting techniques involved in diagnosing a very complex digitally-controlled vehicle? Lot's of skill and training needed to accurately repair modern vehicles.....I'm hesitant to declare which requires more knowledge.....   ? 

Edited November 9, 2020 by Sam Buchanan

[desoto1939]

Sam:

Yes the new mechanics have more electrical issues but when any new car goes into a shop or dealership they have to hook it up to the computer port under the dash and run a computer scan.  The computer does the work of diagnosing the issue and then tells the mechanic what part or parts need to be replaced. If electrical they do not rebuild the part it is just a plug and play situation.  Yes cars have gotten more complicated and specialized but inthe od days you could go to any good repair shop and get your car fixed. Today if you have your own small repair center you might specialize on a certain brand of car but the technical testing units for some of these cars is so costly for the independent guy to own.

 

We have made the car into a complex computer and the basic knowledge to run one has disappeared so this is why we are seeing less and less guys takingon an older car restoration. I do see your point of view.

 

Rich Hartung

[Sniper]

I dunno, I fix my own stuff.

 

Newest is a 2015 GMC Canyon, had to fix a loss of heat from the heater last month.  Mk1 Mod 0 eyeball was my fanciest tool and no it wasn't low on coolant.  The coupler between the stepper motor and the blend air door had a crack allowing the motor to spin freely inside the coupler.

 

Today's cars aren't quite sophisticated enough to do the troubleshoot and anyone that does work on them will tell you that.  Sure you can do a lot with the computer in diagnosing but the mechanic still has to figure out what he's being told and what's not working.  In the example of my Canyon I could have used a computer to cycle that stepper motor as part of the troubleshooting, or I could have just turned the heat control knob which is what I did.  All it took was an understanding of how the system is supposed to work and seeing where it wasn't. 

 

 

 

 

[kencombs]

19 minutes ago, desoto1939 said:

Sam:

Yes the new mechanics have more electrical issues but when any new car goes into a shop or dealership they have to hook it up to the computer port under the dash and run a computer scan.  The computer does the work of diagnosing the issue and then tells the mechanic what part or parts need to be replaced. If electrical they do not rebuild the part it is just a plug and play situation.  Yes cars have gotten more complicated and specialized but inthe od days you could go to any good repair shop and get your car fixed. Today if you have your own small repair center you might specialize on a certain brand of car but the technical testing units for some of these cars is so costly for the independent guy to own.

 

We have made the car into a complex computer and the basic knowledge to run one has disappeared so this is why we are seeing less and less guys takingon an older car restoration. I do see your point of view.

 

Rich Hartung

The red part above is very misleading.  for instance, a diagnostic code may indicate a miss on a specific cylinder.  It does not differentiate a clogged injector nozzle, spark plug wire (if so equipped), coil pack, spark plug failure, low compression or any number causes.  That is where the real work begins.  A vacuum leak can cause many varied codes as another example. 

[soth122003]

While the computer does cut down on the diagnoses time, The integrated systems make up for it in labor. Pull parts A,B,C and D to get access to part F to pull part G off of F to change it out. Then add the cost of the electronic parts made out of Unobtainium, and your engine noise just cost you 1-2K to diagnose and fix. You could pull a mopar out of a field after 20-30  years and repair to drivable for about that.

 

Joe Lee

[RecklessBattleBorn]

Thanks for all the input everyone. I ended up just replacing and repairing all the worn parts and keeping the drums rather than switching to discs and I'm currently happy with the results 

[TodFitch]

3 hours ago, RecklessBattleBorn said:

Thanks for all the input everyone. I ended up just replacing and repairing all the worn parts and keeping the drums rather than switching to discs and I'm currently happy with the results 

 

And thank you for getting back to the forum with the results!

[RecklessBattleBorn]

On 11/28/2020 at 8:51 PM, TodFitch said:

 

And thank you for getting back to the forum with the results!

of course, I would have sooner but wanted to be sure I had it resolved