New Member, with Handling and Drivability Questions

[Jfleming]

Hello all, I’m new here. I have a 1954 Imperial with the 331 Hemi and I love it but I’m having a hard time enjoying it. It’s a handful to drive down the road. Just constant correction, I feel unsafe/ not in enough control if I try to exceed 55-60. 45-50 is the fastest that feels safe. It has original size bias tires by Kelsey Springfield. They’re a few years old but very good condition. I have replaced the inner and outer tie rods, there’s no play in the tie rod at the pitman arm. In fact there’s seemingly no play in the steering connections at all. Any slight movement of the pitman arm results in tire movement.  It’s aligned (by measure tape) within a 16th of a inch (properly, weight on wheels). I’ve adjusted the steering box, maybe even too tight trying to correct this, I may back it off a little. There IS play in the steering column coming from somewhere, I can turn the wheel left and right some with the car off. Also the power steering pump groans/moans terribly and nearly constantly once it’s warmed up. I love driving my Imperial around town, but even county highways are more stressful than enjoyable. But I know something is wrong here. I see all kinds of posts about similar cars doing 70 “smooth and straight.” I drive exclusively classic cars and have for a few years so I’m not expecting autopilot. But as someone who’s put 10s of thousands of miles on 60s and 70s cars, there’s something more going on here than just age. I’m hoping someone here can suggest the cure that’s eluding me!

[Sniper]

I'd flush the power steering for starters, then get the alignment looked at.  there is a section in my service manual that talks about "wander" and what to look for.

[James_Douglas]

Welcome.

 

I had a good friend that purchased the same car in 1985. I rebuilt the entire front end for him so I have some idea of how this car works.

I would say the first thing to do is to get some new tires. Go to Diamond Back Tire and look at their new Auburn Tire. Once that is done take it into a front end alignment shop and have then set the camber and castor and toe. Have them check the King Pin Inclination even though it is not adjustable, this will tell you if anything is bent.

 

The other thing I would do is read over all the stuff on the Chrysler Imperial Website on the coaxial power steering. Sometimes that can cause people issues.

 

If all of that checks out OK, then pull the king pins and see how much play is in them. Also, MAKE SURE that if the Master Parts Book shows they used a needle bearing in the upper of the spindle that your has that and not a bushing. Read my threads on my '49 Desoto to see why.

 

Good luck.

 

James

[Los_Control]

Welcome to the forum and nice car .... I wonder if it could be the bias ply tires causing the wandering?

They are known to follow every divot and line in the road.

I wonder how well it would drive with a set of radials, maybe you have a set or can borrow some just for a test?

[greg g]

Also check where the steering box mounts to the frame. There should be a rubber isolated between the frame and box.  These go squishy and contribute to some wander.  It will never be as precise as modern cars but should train straight if everything is up to snuff.

[Frank Elder]

Beautiful car congratulations, now get rid of those bias ply’s........... Radials don’t wander and grab every rut like bias plys.

[knuckleharley]

8 hours ago, James_Douglas said:

Welcome.

 

I had a good friend that purchased the same car in 1985. I rebuilt the entire front end for him so I have some idea of how this car works.

I would say the first thing to do is to get some new tires. Go to Diamond Back Tire and look at their new Auburn Tire. Once that is done take it into a front end alignment shop and have then set the camber and castor and toe. Have them check the King Pin Inclination even though it is not adjustable, this will tell you if anything is bent.

 

The other thing I would do is read over all the stuff on the Chrysler Imperial Website on the coaxial power steering. Sometimes that can cause people issues.

 

If all of that checks out OK, then pull the king pins and see how much play is in them. Also, MAKE SURE that if the Master Parts Book shows they used a needle bearing in the upper of the spindle that your has that and not a bushing. Read my threads on my '49 Desoto to see why.

 

Good luck.

 

James

Wow! That's the kind of "insider baseball" stuff you just aren't going to find anywhere else!

[Andydodge]

Welcome aboard..............I've never played with a proper US Chrysler, all Oz mopars were Plymouth based BUT I would strongly also recommend checking the complete front end, steering and get a proper alignment done, also Gregs suggestion re the rubber isolator is correct for mopars up to at least 1948, not sure about your model but check it.......and radials will improve the overall handling, steering and "feel" of the car.........I bought this 1941 Plymouth with crossplies, I'd forgotten what a PITA they were to drive with..........installed these Coker Classic Whitewall radials and basically I got a new car......no more wandering, it handled and just drove BETTER....also the power steering box......does it leak?........if so then a rebuild is due BUT a backyard fix is to drop a teaspoon or two of normal mineral brake fluid in the reservoir, if the rubber seals have gone hard the brake fluid will soften them and maybe assist in stopping a leak...........anyway welcome aboard........thats a nice neat car..............andyd    

[Jfleming]

10 hours ago, James_Douglas said:

Welcome.

 

I had a good friend that purchased the same car in 1985. I rebuilt the entire front end for him so I have some idea of how this car works.

I would say the first thing to do is to get some new tires. Go to Diamond Back Tire and look at their new Auburn Tire. Once that is done take it into a front end alignment shop and have then set the camber and castor and toe. Have them check the King Pin Inclination even though it is not adjustable, this will tell you if anything is bent.

 

The other thing I would do is read over all the stuff on the Chrysler Imperial Website on the coaxial power steering. Sometimes that can cause people issues.

 

If all of that checks out OK, then pull the king pins and see how much play is in them. Also, MAKE SURE that if the Master Parts Book shows they used a needle bearing in the upper of the spindle that your has that and not a bushing. Read my threads on my '49 Desoto to see why.

 

Good luck.

 

James

Thank you for the suggestions! I don’t have the coaxial unit thankfully. My setup most resembles the unit in the 1952 master tech on power steering on the imperial website.

 

Im likely to try alignment, king pins, etc before spending $1000 on tires. This whole car was $2000 so I’m going to need to be more sure I enjoy driving if that much before investing like that. I have put new floors and rockers in already but even they were only a few hundred.

 

I did see your thread too, if I recall kingpin servicing made the most difference for you. 

[Jfleming]

7 hours ago, greg g said:

Also check where the steering box mounts to the frame. There should be a rubber isolated between the frame and box.  These go squishy and contribute to some wander.  It will never be as precise as modern cars but should train straight if everything is up to snuff.

I don’t have that rubber isolator but I do think I have the “tongue and groove” one in the steering column. Do you know how to get at those? 

[Jfleming]

Also I’ve been reading about the spur gear adjustment. Manual says the steering wheel

should pull up about 1/8 inch and then slowly drop back. Mine doesn’t budge up or down. Are my spur gears TOO tight? I did adjust them. 

[knuckleharley]

26 minutes ago, Jfleming said:

Thank you for the suggestions! I don’t have the coaxial unit thankfully. My setup most resembles the unit in the 1952 master tech on power steering on the imperial website.

 

Im likely to try alignment, king pins, etc before spending $1000 on tires. This whole car was $2000 so I’m going to need to be more sure I enjoy driving if that much before investing like that. I have put new floors and rockers in already but even they were only a few hundred.

 

I did see your thread too, if I recall kingpin servicing made the most difference for you. 

Maybe it's just me,but if a car wanders all over the road I will never enjoy driving it. I can deal with rust,dents,torn upholstery,etc,etc,etc until I can repair those problems,but I can't deal with a car that has sloppy handling or brakes that don't work right.

 

Not to mention that when you do get ready to sell the car,which car do you think you will have an easier time selling and get more money for,one that wanders all over the road,or one with tight steering?

Edited September 23, 2020 by knuckleharley

[Jfleming]

3 minutes ago, knuckleharley said:

Maybe it's just me,but if a car wanders all over the road I will never enjoy driving it. I can deal with rust,dents,torn upholstery,etc,etc,etc until I can repair those problems,but I can't deal with a car that has sloppy handling or brakes that don't work right.

Well that’s exactly my thoughts. I’m just concerned I’m going to make a huge investment in tires and still be displeased with the handling. I think it’s smarter to ensure the suspension and steering is fully aligned and properly adjusted first. I’d be pretty happy with just a bit of improvement. I’m not looking for precision, just a solid safe feeling of reasonable control

Edited September 23, 2020 by Jfleming

[Sniper]

Wow, I forgot about bias ply tires wandering, I haven't driven with bias plies in about 30 years.  Yeah, they like to wander about. 

[Jfleming]

11 hours ago, Los_Control said:

Welcome to the forum and nice car .... I wonder if it could be the bias ply tires causing the wandering?

They are known to follow every divot and line in the road.

I wonder how well it would drive with a set of radials, maybe you have a set or can borrow some just for a test?

 

8 hours ago, Frank Elder said:

Beautiful car congratulations, now get rid of those bias ply’s........... Radials don’t wander and grab every rut like bias plys.

 

24 minutes ago, Sniper said:

Wow, I forgot about bias ply tires wandering, I haven't driven with bias plies in about 30 years.  Yeah, they like to wander about. 

OK so an update on this lead since it’s the common theme. I’m not committing blindly to $1000 worth of tires. HOWEVER I looked it up and my L78-15 tires translate to a 235-75-15. Conveniently enough that is exactly what’s on my Grand Wagoneer! I’m getting snow tires this month for it, which means I will have a spare set of radials to put on my imperial and experiment with. They do NOT look the part, they’re a 3/4 inch white stripe and my bias plies are 3 or 4 inch. But they'll give me an opportunity to see if radials make a lot of improvement for my car before I commit to the $1000 set!

[Los_Control]

44 minutes ago, Jfleming said:

I’m just concerned I’m going to make a huge investment in tires and still be displeased with the handling.

Why I was saying borrow a set ... If you were anywhere near west Texas and stopped by, I could pull the set of radials off of my project truck in 10 min and we could put them on yours and go take it for a drive. Then you would have peace of mind and quit chasing ghost in the front end.

 

Now your talking .... what bolt pattern are your jeep wheels ... pull all 4 off and try it

[Los_Control]

I should add, if you put 2 radials on the front, it should drive better ... Butt .... the 2 bias in the rear will still go all over the road and still drive funny, maybe just not as funny.

[desoto1939]

I have a 39 desoto with Bia's ply tires yes they will wander especially on a road that has been milled for repaving.  Also you willhave to remember that when these cars were made the steering was built differently than todays cars.  In the 30-60's the roads all had a high berm to them in this I mean that the center of the road was higher than the side so it look as if the road way had a curve built into it so the road way was higher at the centerline and rolled to the right to the curb.  So with this in play the cars had to have play in the steeringbox to compensate for these berms so the wheel will  seem like a lot of play but that was part of the car.

 

My car still has the original kingpins and tie rods. I have the Goodyear 600x16 wide whitewall onthe car and it tracks perfectly down the road on a level modern road but will wnader on an older road.  So you can expect some movement in these older cars.  They do not drive like a 2020 car with rack and pinion steering that is much tighter.

 

Also radials will give you more control but and again BUT, These cars were not built to handle a radial tire configuration with the suspension system that they had when the car was produced. Yes you have independent front suspension but the modern cars are designed to use the radial tire and this tire is designed to roll instead of being flat like a bias ply tire.  This is why the AACA does not permit radial tires on a car that was not made to use radial. They feelthat the geometry of the frame and suspension can cause more damage and gives a false sense of control..

 

remember that you are now driving a car that is over 64 years old and you have to put your mind back into that time frame when driving.  They do not exceleate, stop or corner like a modern car and also do not steer the same.  So sit back get to know the car and drive it at 50-55 mph learn the particulars about your car, slow down and enjoy life instead of just speeding past everything in life. This is the beauty of an antique car.  remember as you get older your body changes, the legs do not perform like they did when you were a teenager.

 

So if you want to go over 70 mph in an old car then go get a competley rebuild Hotrod with new suspension and a super big blown motor with modern disk brakes with AC stereo and the fullblown components and go down the road as fast as you can but you will miss the most important part of life because it will have passed by you so fast.

When you get to be late 60 years old you will understand what I have written inthe above comments.  This is not to put you down but take the time to enjoy life it is very short.

 

I have owned my 39 Desoto for 32 years and I travel at 50-55 mph to enjoy the car and to be safe inthe car.

 

Rich Hartung

 

[knuckleharley]

10 minutes ago, desoto1939 said:

I have a 39 desoto 

Beautiful paint job,Rich. What is that color called? Is it an original color?

[desoto1939]

30 minutes ago, knuckleharley said:

Beautiful paint job,Rich. What is that color called? Is it an original color?

It is close to an original color called cascade green blue

[plymouthcranbrook]

Well what I did on my Plymouth when I needed tires was to go to a local used tire seller and got four radials in good condition.  I paid about $250 for then. Although not historically correct they have done the job well. Much better than the H78’s that were on there.  

Edited September 23, 2020 by plymouthcranbrook

[knuckleharley]

2 hours ago, desoto1939 said:

It is close to an original color called cascade green blue

Thanks!

[knuckleharley]

1 hour ago, plymouthcranbrook said:

Well what I did on my Plymouth when I needed tires was to go to a local used tire seller and got four radials in good condition.  I paid about $250 for then. Although not historically correct thy have done the job well. Much better than the H78’s that were on there.  

Scrap yards that crush cars are VERY good places to go to buy tires. I have bought radial tires already mounted on rims that would fit my car for 12 bucks each. They don't mind doing this because it saves them from having to pay a worker to dismount the tires before they can sell the wheels.

[Los_Control]

On my daily driver, when I bought it I put new tires on it ... expecting a road trip and wanted extra load (6 ply) for a future road trip with a trailer.

While the tires on my daily driver looked good, they were old and have some cracking in the side walls ... And my project truck had tires that would not hold air \o/

 

Thinking to myself, if I had a jeep wagoneer, I would like to have a decent set of all season tires on it.

I tried running studded snow tires in the past, they work ok ... I found that sipping the tread (thin slices in the tread) I got much better control on ice.

This is also what semi trucks do, get the tires sipped and they have better control, when required or needed they will chain up .... they do not run studded winter tires.

 

A good quality all season radial, it will have the sipping built into it. You can look at them and see it. The foot print of the tire, as it contacts the ground, flexes.

If you get on a road covered with water, they will help prevent hydroplaning.  The tread flexes and the water has a evacuation route to keep full contact with the pavement.

Same with ice, pulling up to a stop sign when road is a sheet of ice, the tires flex and grab the ice better then studded snow tires.

When I lived in Spokane WA and 72" snow fall and I worked for a tire company, I had a chance to experiment with tires and sipping is the best in my opinion.

 

All season you run year around and no need to change. Just saying, put good tires on your daily driver, move your existing tires to the hobby car, add some port a walls to them call it a day.

https://www.amazon.com/White-Tire-Wall-Portawall-Insert/dp/B07SSPFLYR/ref=pd_lpo_263_img_0/147-1999544-1403667?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B07SSPFLYR&pd_rd_r=c0282404-3353-4a6c-a87f-0cb5edcfb10b&pd_rd_w=qyiZg&pd_rd_wg=XQbf9&pf_rd_p=7b36d496-f366-4631-94d3-61b87b52511b&pf_rd_r=WPDMYEREYGW15647ERTN&psc=1&refRID=WPDMYEREYGW15647ERTN

[Booger]

5 hours ago, desoto1939 said:

I have a 39 desoto with Bia's ply tires yes they will wander especially on a road that has been milled for repaving.  Also you willhave to remember that when these cars were made the steering was built differently than todays cars.  In the 30-60's the roads all had a high berm to them in this I mean that the center of the road was higher than the side so it look as if the road way had a curve built into it so the road way was higher at the centerline and rolled to the right to the curb.  So with this in play the cars had to have play in the steeringbox to compensate for these berms so the wheel will  seem like a lot of play but that was part of the car.

 

My car still has the original kingpins and tie rods. I have the Goodyear 600x16 wide whitewall onthe car and it tracks perfectly down the road on a level modern road but will wnader on an older road.  So you can expect some movement in these older cars.  They do not drive like a 2020 car with rack and pinion steering that is much tighter.

 

Also radials will give you more control but and again BUT, These cars were not built to handle a radial tire configuration with the suspension system that they had when the car was produced. Yes you have independent front suspension but the modern cars are designed to use the radial tire and this tire is designed to roll instead of being flat like a bias ply tire.  This is why the AACA does not permit radial tires on a car that was not made to use radial. They feelthat the geometry of the frame and suspension can cause more damage and gives a false sense of control..

 

remember that you are now driving a car that is over 64 years old and you have to put your mind back into that time frame when driving.  They do not exceleate, stop or corner like a modern car and also do not steer the same.  So sit back get to know the car and drive it at 50-55 mph learn the particulars about your car, slow down and enjoy life instead of just speeding past everything in life. This is the beauty of an antique car.  remember as you get older your body changes, the legs do not perform like they did when you were a teenager.

 

So if you want to go over 70 mph in an old car then go get a competley rebuild Hotrod with new suspension and a super big blown motor with modern disk brakes with AC stereo and the fullblown components and go down the road as fast as you can but you will miss the most important part of life because it will have passed by you so fast.

When you get to be late 60 years old you will understand what I have written inthe above comments.  This is not to put you down but take the time to enjoy life it is very short.

 

I have owned my 39 Desoto for 32 years and I travel at 50-55 mph to enjoy the car and to be safe inthe car.

 

Rich Hartung

 

 

Edited September 23, 2020 by michaelmarks697@yahoo.com
screwed up