A Modern Tune Up?

[keithb7]

Today I was out for a walk in the warm weather. I happened to walk past a local independent garage. Above each bay there was a message; 

 

“Tire changes”....Ok. 
“Oil Changes”....Ok. 
“Tune Ups”....Huh?
 

So I continued to walk, and now my idle mind had something to think about. I thought about a tune up for our old Mopars. Which might include:

 

Oil bath filter.  Clean filter wire mesh in kerosene. Change oil in filter housing. File and set points. Change capacitor. Set ignition timing. Check and set idle RPM. Pull, clean, gap plugs. Check, inspect, replace if needed distributor cap and rotor. Maybe check engine vacuum at intake manifold. Check choke operation, set as required. Tighten carb assembly and mounting hardware. Check & replace if necessary sparkplug and coil wires. Engine compression test.  Grease 50 plus points. Possible additions:
 

Minor/major brake set.  Check axle bearing end play. Clean grease/repack wheel bearings. Set clutch free travel. Set master cylinder free travel. Test, clean, set voltage regulator. Valve grind. 
 

Compared to a 2019 Car that’s due for a “Tune up”. 
What exactly are people paying for? Plug in and check for fault codes. Reset tire pressure sensors. Toss and replace air filter. Fill window washer fluid. Lol. 
 

Us old guys who look after these vintage cars are patient, determined people, mastered in a dying skill. 

Edited March 18, 2020 by keithb7

[Sniper]

Some of us are teaching that skill to the next generation.  I usually save those kinds of projects for when I have my son.

 

He helped with the seat belt install, the outside mirrors install.  Tuneups and such.  He's 14 and his first driving experience was in the 51.  I have a video I promised hm I wouldn't post without his permission.

[JBNeal]

Modern gasoline engines can benefit from new O2 sensors and spark plugs around 80k-100k,  inspection of PCV system and a new fuel filter thereabouts, and scanning the computer won't hurt...I argued with a know-it-all tree higher about why it's bad to drive around with less than 1/4 full gas tank, he said it's less dead weight so better for the environment cuz of increased fuel economy; I countered with the need to displace moisture in the air in the tank cuz that moisture corrodes the metal and conductors in the fuel pump motor which can lead to premature failure, and the cascade effect of possibly blocking traffic from stalling out (decreased fuel economy for others in traffic), the environmental impact of the tow truck mobilized, the environmental impact of increased manufacturing of replacement parts due to poor maintenance...he told me I was looking at the problem all wrong

[plymouthcranbrook]

On 3/19/2020 at 1:13 PM, JBNeal said:

Modern gasoline engines can benefit from new O2 sensors and spark plugs around 80k-100k,  inspection of PCV system and a new fuel filter thereabouts, and scanning the computer won't hurt...I argued with a know-it-all tree higher about why it's bad to drive around with less than 1/4 full gas tank, he said it's less dead weight so better for the environment cuz of increased fuel economy; I countered with the need to displace moisture in the air in the tank cuz that moisture corrodes the metal and conductors in the fuel pump motor which can lead to premature failure, and the cascade effect of possibly blocking traffic from stalling out (decreased fuel economy for others in traffic), the environmental impact of the tow truck mobilized, the environmental impact of increased manufacturing of replacement parts due to poor maintenance...he told me I was looking at the problem all wrong

To paraphrase Mark Twain you will be amazed how much you learn in the next 7 years.

[Ulu]

Here you tune First:

 

The battery is the first KEY to a good running car. The #1 starting point for service. No Pun Intended.

 

I was about 6 when I started reading all my dad's big books, for whatever I could glean from them. Lots of them had great illustrations in those days, and Dad's 1957 Motor's manual was one of the finest in that regard. After mastering Quickdraw McGraw and Huckleberry Hound, I was ready!

 

The first section is about basic things, and a part is devoted to the Tune Up. I can almost quote the first line after 60 years:

 

The first step in any automotive tune up is the battery service.

 

Even in the age of maintenance free batteries, this is still 100% true, and 90% ignored.

 

Though, it has gained a little attention, since these computerized cars usually won't even run the main computer under 11.5 volts.

The car might still crank fast enough, but to prevent current spikes the computer turns itself off.

 

Keep those terminals clean. Lord knows, I have soldered batteries right into devices to get the max reliability (at min convenience...)

It is the first potential weak link in any car, lightbulb, or electric razor. The battery terminal.

Edited March 21, 2020 by Ulu

[TodFitch]

On 3/19/2020 at 11:13 AM, JBNeal said:

. . . I countered with the need to displace moisture in the air in the tank cuz that moisture corrodes the metal and conductors in the fuel pump motor which can lead to premature failure, . . .

 

Hmmm. The fuel tanks on modern cars is pretty well sealed, I didn't think that moisture from the atmosphere getting in the tank was a problem like it is on our old cars with vented tanks.

 

On the new car I usually fill up when the nag light on the dash lights up.

 

I was under the impression that the big reason for keeping the tank at least 1/4 full was so the electric fuel pump was properly cooled to prolong its life. I've never bothered filling up before empty and I've never had a modern car's electric fuel pump fail on me. That includes all the new vehicles I've had since 1992. Small sample size, so not scientifically valid. But it would seem odd that the engineers at the car companies would knowingly create that type of failure condition.

 

Another argument to keep the tank 1/4 or even 1/2 full heard is that it simply is a reserve to allow you to drive some distance if/when buying gas becomes an issue (evacuation from a fire or flood zone in an emergency, etc.). This actually seems to be the strongest argument to me.

 

Regarding the argument about better average fuel economy by letting the tank go empty, that seems pretty weak too. The best thing you can do for fuel economy is buy a car that gets good gas mileage. Incrementally increasing your mileage by dropping your tank below 1/4 on a car that gets, say 25 to 35 MPG still is horrible compared to buying a car that gets 55 or 60 MPG. And yes, in the US you can buy cars that get 55 to 60 MPG today.

 

 

[Ulu]

When you buy gasoline from the pump that has some moisture in it locked up with the alcohol. I think this alcohol going to the fuel systems of modern cars purges them of most moisture.

 

As for the idea "the big reason for keeping the tank at least 1/4 full was so the electric fuel pump was properly cooled to prolong its life. "

 

I agree 100% as I have seen so many Camaros and Pontiacs have fuel pump failures after their owners drove them hard on a very hot day, with a low gas level.

[Tooljunkie]

The fuel pump discussion can go on forever. Methanol in todays gas is an easy way for our petroleum companies to sell you water. 
fuel pump failure? They fail. As i have been in the business since fuel injection became mainline in all vehicles i have yet to replace more than a couple pumps in ford vehicles. One was broken due to a collapsed tank and pump broke. 
general motors products by far have the highest failure rates.99 % of the fuel pumps i have replaced are gm products. Which is something i just realized at the writing of this post. Hundreds of gm pumps. Only a handful of mopar pumps. 

[Sniper]

They don't put methanol in gasoline, they put ethanol.

 

Methanol is substantially more corrosive than ethanol.  Modern materials can handle ethanol just fine.  Unless your running an NOS pump or something I am pretty sure the new stuff has the ethanol resistant materials in use.  You can always ask the manufacturer if in doubt.

 

 

 

[Tooljunkie]

Pardon my minor error, you are correct. Ethanol. Regardless any alcohol of any kind in most vehicles is detrimental to the fuel system as well as performance. 
we are fortunate enough to have one service station that sells ethanol free premium  gas. 

[Eneto-55]

38 minutes ago, Tooljunkie said:

Pardon my minor error, you are correct. Ethanol. Regardless any alcohol of any kind in most vehicles is detrimental to the fuel system as well as performance. 
we are fortunate enough to have one service station that sells ethanol free premium  gas. 

We have a local source as well.  Bought some (for mowers) yesterday at $3.399.  I have already paid over $5.00/gal for it in the past.  (Use it on all small engines - leaf blower, chain saw, mowers.  Using common gasoline ruined our weed wacker, now have a 40 volt battery one.  At least the local small engine shop said that's what causes problems w/ especially 2 cycle engines.)

 

[Sniper]

THEY DON'T PUT METHANOL IN GASOLINE

 

It's ethanol, you know the E in E10 or E85, or the proof in your whiskey.

 

You put methanol in your gas tank, or your belly, and very bad things happen.  Methanol is highly corrosive and will kill both your fuel system and you if you drink it.  Ethanol's issue only arises when you let the fuel evaporate and it clogs up the carb.  Methanol will actively eat the metal your carb is made of, which is why racers who do actually run methanol usually make a gasoline run thru the fuel system before putting it away. 

 

If you don't want to have issues with your small engines and gasoline with ethanol in it then don't store it with fuel in it.  I run my small stuff dry before I put them away.  If that is inconvenient then install a shut off valve between the tank and carb and run the carb dry. 

 

[Eneto-55]

I realize that there is a good deal of controversy (opposing opinions) regarding the use of gasoline-ethanol in small engines, and I suppose that always running it dry would certainly help avoid the damaging effects of using that mix in small engines, but that procedure would be more difficult with a larger mower, like my zero-turn.  Already one of the things I really don't like about it is that it is electric start only, and it doesn't take much cranking to run the battery down, even though I replaced the original battery with a much higher amperage battery.  But I am not the only one who uses that equipment, and all of it is sometimes used late into the fall (blowing leaves together, picking up with the mower, cutting firewood, etc.).   

I am also going on experience with our alcohol-fueled VW in Brazil.  That was a situation where the car did not just sit for months at a time, but it was still necessary to replace the carb from time to time, because the wear in the jet area would eventually work its way through the nickel plating, and then the fuel would attack the base metal, and then you can forget about adjusting the air-fuel mixture.  It was like that when I bought it, and after trying to get it to run smooth, I finally dropped $200.00 on a new carburetor, and walla, it ran like a kitten again.  (And it was already around 15 years old.  Well, I did also later pull the head & have the valves ground & reseated, but the carb was first thing I did, and made a big difference.)

[MackTheFinger]

My wife takes her Accord to the dealer for oil changes and stuff 'cause they're free. The cabin air filter ain't. They tried to jam her $50+ to replace that. You gotta watch out for the upsell.

I buy fuel for my motorcycles at a local airport and keep a jug or two around the house. I don't make many motorcycle road trips anymore so it works out fairly well. Cars/vans/pickups get whatever. I've put hundreds and hundreds of thousands of miles on various vehicles over the years and have yet to have a fuel related issue on anything that's used regularly and maintained properly. Anything that sets around or only gets driven 20 minutes at a crack is going to have problems of every kind.

The last half dozen vehicles I've personally used have all gone well over 200k miles with no mechanical issues whatever; the exception being a 2008 Dodge Grand Caravan that was hands down the worst piece of junk I ever had. I put 125k on it in 18 months, about average for me. It was in the shop a half dozen times. The transmission was bad when the van was replaced. I've driven at least 500k since then without a single mechanical issue.

[plymouthcranbrook]

My ex neighbor bought Chrysler mini vans for years(and as far as I know still does) because he got the friends and family discount. About 80,000 miles he would go buy another one because things began to break.  Never could convince him to try anything else.  My Chevrolet Astro is almost 20 years old and has almost 200,000 miles.  Rust will get it before it dies I am sure.

[MackTheFinger]

32 minutes ago, plymouthcranbrook said:

My ex neighbor bought Chrysler mini vans for years(and as far as I know still does) because he got the friends and family discount. About 80,000 miles he would go buy another one because things began to break.  Never could convince him to try anything else.  My Chevrolet Astro is almost 20 years old and has almost 200,000 miles.  Rust will get it before it dies I am sure.

 

I have no doubt that's true. If you get a new one every couple of years almost any vehicle is okay. For the rest of us talking to professional mechanics and people who run commercial vehicles will tell you what's worth having and what isn't. A friend of mine had a commercial delivery business running 20 or so vans daily and he regularly got 400-500k out of 4.3 Astros before he replaced them. Those vans ran 8+ hours every day without being shut off. He had some transmission problems that I recall and had a couple of motors that lost the #2 rod bearings but that was about it for that kinda stuff. Brakes, water pumps, alternators, etc are normal wear items and I'm sure he replaced plenty of those. He shut that business down about 15 years ago but I'm sure he'd tell anyone what great vehicles those Astro vans are.

Edited April 11, 2020 by MackTheFinger

[plymouthcranbrook]

One of the reasons I bought an Astro was exactly that. There are still several running around here, some in commercial use. And with winters here, well that says it all.  I Had a trans go at 178,000 miles and a few other things but the only newer car I would have any interest I would be another one.  However the newest one is now 15  years old so....

[Los_Control]

No Idea how many miles I had on my astro. I really did like it though, it had a factory manual 5 speed in it ... I have never seen another.

The 4.3/manual would run forever .... sadly as a carpenter, it just was not big enough to haul materials.

 

Far as the mopar mini vans go, I had some old foggy tell me the transmissions were just to small for the weight. True? I dunno.

Wife has a 1993 caravan, she inherited from her mother when she passed away.

Father bought it used with a bad trans at 140k miles. Had it rebuilt and was driven very little afterwards, mother was sick.

Right now it has 181k miles on it, and I would drive it anywhere. 150k it needed a fuel pump. Since the wife owned it, we drove it from WA > NM > WA > TX > WA  > TX > WA >TX >NM >TX >NM ... you get the idea. Just a 27 year old car that has been kept up on maintenance. at 3k miles it will use about 1/2 quart oil, and I change it.

Comfortable seats, cold ac, loud radio, cruise control,  A little cargo room ... what more you want?

 

Father inlaw spent $2k on the trans rebuild and removed/installed it himself. Was it worth it?  Happy wife happy life.

Myself I would never had put $2k into it, Curious to see how far the rebuilt trans go. As is, just to good of a car to consider replacing, the 70k mile tires still have 50k left \0/

[MackTheFinger]

I never saw an Astro with a 5-speed but that would be pretty cool. They are a little small for a work van, though. The 3.0 Mitsubishi engines in the early Mopar minivans were pretty good. I replaced one for a friend back in the '90's. It was his wife's van, I can't remember if it said Dodge of Plymouth on it but she sure blew the motor to bits. I went to the junkyard and picked one up for $300 and I think I charged her $100 to change it. I'm such a nice guy.. 

 

I'm with you on your Caravan, if it's running; drive it. When it stops, fix it and drive it some more! The one I drove was run overloaded all the time. Front wheel drive minivans just aren't made for that. They're great stealth vehicles, too.  ? 

[JBNeal]

The Firestone I worked at in college had a 3.0L 5spd Aerostar, that van was a workhorse as a courtesy vehicle to shuttle customers around as well as hauling tires etc to & from other stores in town...the jackwagon part-timers I worked with would do donuts and power stall the thing in the back parking lot, burning out the clutch every few months, but the mechanics could swap that out in no time as the truck was basically a Ranger in disguise...the store manager put top-of-the-line Firehawk white letter tires on that thing and it responded well to that, tho it looked a little odd...that little two-tone grey brick handled surprisingly well and was quite torquey from the line...it was a little to fun to drive

[MackTheFinger]

1 hour ago, JBNeal said:

The Firestone I worked at in college had a 3.0L 5spd Aerostar, that van was a workhorse as a courtesy vehicle to shuttle customers around as well as hauling tires etc to & from other stores in town...the jackwagon part-timers I worked with would do donuts and power stall the thing in the back parking lot, burning out the clutch every few months, but the mechanics could swap that out in no time as the truck was basically a Ranger in disguise...the store manager put top-of-the-line Firehawk white letter tires on that thing and it responded well to that, tho it looked a little odd...that little two-tone grey brick handled surprisingly well and was quite torquey from the line...it was a little to fun to drive

 

Yeah, the Aerostars were good vans, too. I don't remember my friend having many of them, though. He was a sub-contractor for Airborne Express and later on for DHL. His guys were rough on vehicles. Toward the end of his DHL contract he was mostly running Econolines. During the Airborne to DHL transition another friend changed all the vans from silver to yellow. A quick scrub with Comet and a ScotchBrite pad, a gallon of yellow enamel and there's your dinner! There were still some of them running around for several years but by then they were really clapped out. I don't think any of them had less than 400k on them. Rode hard and put up wet.. I need to get in touch with that guy. He's running a KC hall now, of all the jobs a guy could have.