Flathead 6 not starting in colder weather Plymouth & Desoto

[Tim Larson]

10 hours ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

Are the cars sitting for a couple weeks or more before starting?.

Possible fuel evap and drain back.

To help that..

Crank the engine for 30 seconds..stop cranking.....wait 5-10 minutes....crank again while pumping the gas pedal 5-10 times..

Engine should fire.

 

Yes, I would say they probably had been sitting for at least a couple of weeks. Will have to try this.

[Tim Larson]

10 hours ago, Jeff Balazs said:

Have you checked the position of the rod on the accelerator pump linkage? Might be in the center (standard) position....and starting may benefit from a change to the longer stroke winter position. I think it is worth a try.

Jeff

 

I did not check this. Thank you for the reminder to do so. Would both the Plymouth and Desoto have this adjustment? The Desoto has semi-automatic fluid drive. 

[Dodgeb4ya]

4 minutes ago, tjlarson88 said:

 

Yes, I would say they probably had been sitting for at least a couple of weeks. Will have to try this.

The reason to crank and wait is to save the starter and battery. The pump now has some vacuum and pressure built up causing the fuel continue to flow up through the fuel line and  to the carburetor. This from residual vacuum and pressure created by the pump that was just pumping.

..then you pump the throttle  5-10 time to wet the intake manifold..that should make the engine fire off. Might have to do another 2-3 pumps again and the engine should start and continue to run. hopefully....it works on my cars.

[Sniper]

I don't think I have ever had to pump the pedal more than twice to start it up.  If you need to pump the carb 5-10 times something is wrong with your carb, assuming it''s got fuel in it.

[Jeff Balazs]

I recently experienced some starting issues with my truck. It is a daily driver and my only ride so I take all this pretty seriously. I pulled the carb and serviced it pretty carefully. It was pretty clean after 20,000 miles but the needle valve and accelerator pump looked like they should be replaced. I put fresh components in and it starts and runs like it should again. I believe these modern fuels we are forced to use are harder on things like this than the old stuff was. At any rate the truck runs better than it has for awhile so I will service these items more frequently.

As far as pumping the pedal more than once or twice goes I have found this practice to cause starting issues rather than solve them. But I run an electric fuel pump rather than the stock arrangement.......and it has no problem filling the carb bowl instantly.

Jeff

[Dodgeb4ya]

Sniper.....I have my way of starting old mopars that sit extended periods over time that works just fine and has for many years.

Nothing is wrong with any of my 25 or more carbs.

Cars/trucks that sit extended amounts of time generally do not start and run with just one two gentle soft accelerator pedal pumps. My advice was given for just this situation. No fuel in the carb....getting it full of fuel without killing the battery or starter.....getting the intake manifold wetted with enough fuel charge so the engine will start and and keep running 1st try.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Dodgeb4ya

[Sam Buchanan]

1 hour ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

No fuel in the carb....getting it full of fuel without killing the battery or starter.....getting the intake manifold wetted with enough fuel charge so the engine will start and and keep running 1st try.

 

1 hour ago, Jeff Balazs said:

But I run an electric fuel pump rather than the stock arrangement.......and it has no problem filling the carb bowl instantly.

 

An electric boost pump really is the solution for smooth starting when the vehicle has been sitting for some time. The cost of the pump is probably less than the wear and tear on the starter and battery caused by pulling fuel into the carb with the mechanical pump.......

Edited November 22, 2019 by Sam Buchanan

[Jeff Balazs]

1 hour ago, Sam Buchanan said:

 

 

An electric boost pump really is the solution for smooth starting when the vehicle has been sitting for some time. The cost of the pump is probably less than the wear and tear on the starter and battery caused by pulling fuel into the carb with the mechanical pump.......

Sam;

Well I would make the case for installing a large full time rotary style pump and ditching the mechanical altogether. When I was building my truck I happened to read another members experience with a split fuel pump diaphragm and the resulting failure of his newly rebuilt engine. That and numerous "hard start when warm stories" was enough for me to invest in a nice Carter rotary style electric pump. This combined with really good filtration and a Holley regulator is in my mind the best fix.

It can get really hot here so the heat soak thing could easily be a problem. But I have never once had a "failure to launch". And I don't have to worry much about fuel making its way into the crankcase and diluting the oil.

Jeff

[Sam Buchanan]

4 hours ago, Jeff Balazs said:

Sam;

Well I would make the case for installing a large full time rotary style pump and ditching the mechanical altogether. When I was building my truck I happened to read another members experience with a split fuel pump diaphragm and the resulting failure of his newly rebuilt engine. That and numerous "hard start when warm stories" was enough for me to invest in a nice Carter rotary style electric pump. This combined with really good filtration and a Holley regulator is in my mind the best fix.

It can get really hot here so the heat soak thing could easily be a problem. But I have never once had a "failure to launch". And I don't have to worry much about fuel making its way into the crankcase and diluting the oil.

Jeff

 

Well Jeff.....great minds think alike.....  ?

 

Here is the full-time Carter electric pump on my P15, there is a block-off plate where the mechanical pump used to be. The Carter has been flawless and I haven't found the need for a regulator. Turn on the ignition and the carb bowl is full before I have time to punch the starter button.

 

Edited November 23, 2019 by Sam Buchanan

[Sniper]

Dodgeb4ya - Pretty sure I said "if the carb has fuel in it".  If it doesn't you'd be much better off to use an old turkey baster and fill the bowl with fuel thru the vent than cranking and cranking and cranking and cranking and pumping and pumping and pumping.  Fuel also lubes the leather cup in the accelerator pump and pumping it dry wears it out faster, not to mention a dry leather cup doesn't work so well and likes to get deformed.

[Dodgeb4ya]

30 minutes ago, Sniper said:

Dodgeb4ya - Pretty sure I said "if the carb has fuel in it".  If it doesn't you'd be much better off to use an old turkey baster and fill the bowl with fuel thru the vent than cranking and cranking and cranking and cranking and pumping and pumping and pumping.  Fuel also lubes the leather cup in the accelerator pump and pumping it dry wears it out faster, not to mention a dry leather cup doesn't work so well and likes to get deformed.

You did state " if the carb has fuel in it" ?....I have a large old school syringe needle that I use to prime carbs on old parts engines, cars trucks etc. that have sat.

I do fine easily and quickly starting all my cars and trucks.

Electric fuel pumps are the best for stuff that sits if that's what the owner wants and needs... I have installed several electric pumps on a guy I keep all his old 30's cars going. He uses the electric only for starting and vapor lock issues on hot weather long car trips.

On questionable carbs I quickly pull the top off and  check the step up piston , accelerator pump, jet and check balls to be sure they work. Then fill the bowl.

Everyone has there own way of starting their cars and old parts cars etc.

Edited November 23, 2019 by Dodgeb4ya

[Sam Buchanan]

Man.....I can hardly stand to look at that syringe.....reminds of getting fillings when I was a kid....bad memories.....  ?

[Sniper]

That's syringe is probably less messy too, but everyone has a turkey baster, well your wife probably does and if it goes missing .....

 

But yeah, good pic of filling it thru the vent  ?

[kencombs]

speaking of electric fuel pumps.  A lot of 90s small pickups and 4wds have TBI systems that use an in-tank pump.  That type of vehicle also has gas tanks that are easily adaptable  to older trucks.  So, we could get a good pump and tank in one trip to the auto recycler.  I have one complete that came from a '95 Geo Tracker.

 

Most of those TBI systems run continuously and have a regulator in the 30-50 lb range  so delivering the low pressures we need will be no problem at all, assuming we have a good regulator to install.

 

Anyway, that's my theory and tentative plan, unless someone knows of a reason to avoid them.  What'cha think?

[Jerry Roberts]

3 hours ago, Sniper said:

That's syringe is probably less messy too, but everyone has a turkey baster, well your wife probably does and if it goes missing .....

 

But yeah, good pic of filling it thru the vent  ?

Or a plastic squeeze ketchup bottle . 

[Dodgeb4ya]

A nice big syringe is used for more than priming carbs...You can use them for temporary lubing of a dry ball joint and other mechanical woes....one shot is all you need?

[keithb7]

I’ve kept a large syringe in my tool box for years. They work great for many tasks. Suction and filling. 

[Hickory]

I have found up here in the north that semi-loose hose clamps tend to suck air in the cold. I would also check them

[desoto1939]

One thing do not use starting fluid or ether to prime your carb.  If you spray starting fluid down the carb and the car does not start then you will cause more damage.  The starting fluid needs to ignite and get the car started, BUT and here is the issue.  If the car does not start then the vapors and the fluid that was sucked down into each cylinder acts as a Degreasser and then strips the oil from the cylinder walls. Most people stop trying to start the car so the pistons on the next try do not have any lubrication and now you have bare metal.  It might not be that much of an issue but just wanted to bring up this topic.

 

In you car manual there should be a section on car starting in cold weather.  I also assume that you have a sisson electric choke on your car. Is this setup properly. The sisson choke is an electro maganetic choke that needs to be set correctly to close the choke butterfly.  I have the instruction sheet on how to set these up.

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[Tim Larson]

53 minutes ago, desoto1939 said:

One thing do not use starting fluid or ether to prime your carb.  If you spray starting fluid down the carb and the car does not start then you will cause more damage.  The starting fluid needs to ignite and get the car started, BUT and here is the issue.  If the car does not start then the vapors and the fluid that was sucked down into each cylinder acts as a Degreasser and then strips the oil from the cylinder walls. Most people stop trying to start the car so the pistons on the next try do not have any lubrication and now you have bare metal.  It might not be that much of an issue but just wanted to bring up this topic.

 

In you car manual there should be a section on car starting in cold weather.  I also assume that you have a sisson electric choke on your car. Is this setup properly. The sisson choke is an electro maganetic choke that needs to be set correctly to close the choke butterfly.  I have the instruction sheet on how to set these up.

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

 

Thank you, Rich. I'm going to send you an email. 

[James_Douglas]

16 hours ago, Sam Buchanan said:

 

Well Jeff.....great minds think alike.....  ?

 

Here is the full-time Carter electric pump on my P15, there is a block-off plate where the mechanical pump used to be. The Carter has been flawless and I haven't found the need for a regulator. Turn on the ignition and the carb bowl is full before I have time to punch the starter button.

 

 

 

These are nice pumps.  BUT! I had a long talk with the Carter Engineer about these. He warned me that they need a certain amount of flow per hour to keep cool. There have been people reporting that the pumps burn out he said, When they investigated, the problem was that in low HP application the idle fuel use was not enough to keep the pump cool. Especially in stop and go driving or in a parade.

 

He urged me to create a return line and to use a "T" at the front of the carb. In the return side of the "T" weld it up and drill a 3/32 inch hole in it for the bleed to the rear.

 

I had problems with this set up and associated it with the pump, but I think that was a red herring. I put the mechanical pump back in with a boost pump and have been using that since. At some point, I may switch it back as I think the issue had nothing to do with the pump. That said, if you measure the output of the Carter to American Car and Foundry (ACF) to Federal-Mogul to now some outfit named Castle Automotive, you will see that it may not hit the Old carter output targets.

 

James.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jeff Balazs]

On 11/23/2019 at 8:49 AM, James_Douglas said:

 

 

These are nice pumps.  BUT! I had a long talk with the Carter Engineer about these. He warned me that they need a certain amount of flow per hour to keep cool. There have been people reporting that the pumps burn out he said, When they investigated, the problem was that in low HP application the idle fuel use was not enough to keep the pump cool. Especially in stop and go driving or in a parade.

 

He urged me to create a return line and to use a "T" at the front of the carb. In the return side of the "T" weld it up and drill a 3/32 inch hole in it for the bleed to the rear.

 

I had problems with this set up and associated it with the pump, but I think that was a red herring. I put the mechanical pump back in with a boost pump and have been using that since. At some point, I may switch it back as I think the issue had nothing to do with the pump. That said, if you measure the output of the Carter to American Car and Foundry (ACF) to Federal-Mogul to now some outfit named Castle Automotive, you will see that it may not hit the Old carter output targets.

 

James.

 

 

 

 

 

I have had one of these in daily service for a number of years. No return circuit and No real world problems with this set up. I did find though that it put out more pressure in my truck set up than is recommended for the B &B Carters. So I run a Holley regulator ahead of the carb.

 

I keep seeing "speculation" about the use of starter fluid. Personally I think it is more of a theoretical thing rather than something that can be backed up with fact. For many years I had a boat with a large outboard that would not start without a liberal shot of starting fluid. Nothing anybody tried would get it to start without the stuff. I was warned that it would shorten the engine life dramatically. Nothing could have been further from the truth. I ended up getting 3 1/2 times the running hours out of that engine than the factory used as an engine life number.

 

Jeff

[kencombs]

2 hours ago, Jeff Balazs said:

 

 

I keep seeing "speculation" about the use of starter fluid. Personally I think it is more of a theoretical thing rather than something that can be backed up with fact. For many years I had a boat with a large outboard that would not start without a liberal shot of starting fluid. Nothing anybody tried would get it to start without the stuff. I was warned that it would shorten the engine life dramatically. Nothing could have been further from the truth. I ended up getting 3 1/2 times the running hours out of that engine than the factory used as an engine life number.

 

Jeff

Agree wholeheartedly.   the tiny amount of liquid in a shot of ether distributed over 6 or 8 cylinders with lots of surface area isn't likely to remove much oil.  any oil loosened would wind up on top of the first compression ring anyway.

 

The only place I'd never use starting fluid is a diesel with any sort of electric intake or cylinder heat.  That's a recipe for disaster.

[Sam Buchanan]

2 hours ago, Jeff Balazs said:

I have had one of these in daily service for a number of years. No return circuit and No real world problems with this set up. I did find though that it put out more pressure in my truck set up than is recommended for the B &B Carters. So I run a Holley regulator ahead of the carb.

 

I ran the 12v version of the Carter pump for several years in my kit car with flawless results in all sorts of traffic, a lot of it in-town. The only downside is the pump is a little noisy if bolted directly to the frame. I made a flexible mount for the pump out of radiator hose and it is now practically inaudible. I have soft hoses on each side of the pump to eliminate vibes being transferred into the hard line.

 

[Kristi Layman]

In winter, I always used 5w30 oil in my '51 Plymouth.  If it got to 10 below zero, I would squirt a bit of starting fluid in the carburetor.  Actually, I would loosen the wing nut on the oil bath air cleaner and do a short squirt in the hole....would always start.  Thankfully we didn't have many days that cold!  But, 40w oil is too thick, for sure.