Oil Pan Inspection; Now....Which Oil?

[Sam Buchanan]

After being prompted by the previous thread about bypass filters and types of oil,  I pulled the oil pan on the '48 P15 to replace the gasket, the lower crank seal, and see what sort of mayhem resided in the bottom of the pan. Not sure how the gasket and seal replacement will go, but the interior of the pan was a pleasant discovery. I have no idea what kind of oil has been the in the car for the past few decades but the pan looked just like what I would expect to see in a well-maintained car that has been running modern detergent oil.

 

Connoisseurs of Fine Oils, please inspect this photo and offer your advice as to whether or not this engine is good to go with detergent oil:

 

 

The only sludge is a thin layer (1/32") in the very bottom of the pan. The remainder of the pan and the engine bottom end look clean. The engine presently has no oil filter but I will probably add a bypass filter.

 

Also, after pulling the clutch cover I found a gasket that I didn't expect to see:

 

 

Is this standard or something someone added along the way?

 

Thanks in advance for comments.

Edited July 3, 2019 by Sam Buchanan

[soth122003]

Hey Sam,

 

Don't know about the seal, but if the car has been using a detergent oil, I usually get the 5 quart jug of super tech 10-30 at Wal-Mart. Been using that for over 6 years in mine and no problems at all. Where at in Bama do you live? I live in Niceville Fl. but my dad and brother lives in Florence Ala.

 

Joe Lee

[Reg Evans]

That felt strip on the clutch cover is standard. Don't trim the cork gasket for the oil pan off.  Let it stick up about 1/4 or 3/8" above the side gaskets.

 

[Sam Buchanan]

1 hour ago, soth122003 said:

Hey Sam,

 

Don't know about the seal, but if the car has been using a detergent oil, I usually get the 5 quart jug of super tech 10-30 at Wal-Mart. Been using that for over 6 years in mine and no problems at all. Where at in Bama do you live? I live in Niceville Fl. but my dad and brother lives in Florence Ala.

 

Joe Lee

 

Joe, Walmart's finest is what I put in the car when I returned it to the road. I'm going back again with detergent since the engine looks so clean. The bearing cap I took off looks really good along with the crank journal. The cam and bottom of the cylinder bores are nice--the 43K on the odometer may be actual unless the engine has been rebuilt.

 

I'm in Athens 45 miles east of your family.....and my brother. 

[Sam Buchanan]

1 hour ago, Reg Evans said:

That felt strip on the clutch cover is standard. Don't trim the cork gasket for the oil pan off.  Let it stick up about 1/4 or 3/8" above the side gaskets.

 

 

Done. Do the side gaskets get trimmed up against the end gaskets? There're still a little long now overlapping the excess end gaskets.

[Sam Buchanan]

16 hours ago, soth122003 said:

Hey Sam,

 

Don't know about the seal, but if the car has been using a detergent oil, I usually get the 5 quart jug of super tech 10-30 at Wal-Mart. Been using that for over 6 years in mine and no problems at all. Where at in Bama do you live? I live in Niceville Fl. but my dad and brother lives in Florence Ala.

 

Joe Lee

 

Joe, are you in aviation? One of your posts in another thread looks like that may be the case. I've been building aircraft for nearly thirty years, here are a couple:

 

The RV-6

 

The Fokker D.VII

 

My brother in Florence is also a pilot and flies a Cessna.

 

Just to keep this P15 related, I found the broken-off tip of the dipstick in the oil pan, no telling how long it had been there. It has now been rejoined with the surviving portion of the stick.

 

Edited July 4, 2019 by Sam Buchanan

[captden29]

I have always been afraid to drop the pan on my 54 Windsor. thought it was a difficult job. car has 78,000 miles and I would like to get any gunk out. the car always runs to the hot side and I am told from this site that the gunk can hold unwanted heat. other than removing all the bolts that hold it on, any other procedures? gasket should be easy to get. any material better than others? gasket cement or not?  thanks,  capt den

[captden29]

I use conventional 10-30, whatever is on sale. I tried synthetic, but the engine used more oil with it.    capt den

[keithb7]

1 hour ago, captden29 said:

I have always been afraid to drop the pan on my 54 Windsor. thought it was a difficult job. car has 78,000 miles and I would like to get any gunk out. the car always runs to the hot side and I am told from this site that the gunk can hold unwanted heat. other than removing all the bolts that hold it on, any other procedures? gasket should be easy to get. any material better than others? gasket cement or not?  thanks,  capt den

 

You need to pull a tie end on the steering linkage, directly under the pan. Then turn wheels to a full stop one way. Then you can drop the oil pan.  Its not a hard job. You’ll get messy. While you are under there scrape off 50 years of grease and road grime that is often all over everything. 

 

I did my ‘53 oil pan about year and a half ago. Was my first time. Not a difficult job.  You can read all about it here:

http://p15-d24.com/topic/45530-oil-pan-removal-engine-in-car-53-windsor-265/#comments

Edited July 3, 2019 by keithb7

[belvedere]

Good advice above.  Pick your favorite brand of modern 10W30 and go. 

[soth122003]

Hey Sam,

 

I was. Hueys and Blackhawks for almost 35 years. With H-53 and H-3 thrown in. 3 years Navy and 17 years in the USAF with 15 years contracting to boot. Now semi retired with 3 years to SS benefits.

 

Joe Lee

[Sam Buchanan]

5 hours ago, soth122003 said:

Hey Sam,

 

I was. Hueys and Blackhawks for almost 35 years. With H-53 and H-3 thrown in. 3 years Navy and 17 years in the USAF with 15 years contracting to boot. Now semi retired with 3 years to SS benefits.

 

Joe Lee

 

Yes, you have some aviation background. 

 

We appreciate your service...enjoy retirement.....and your P15!

[Sam Buchanan]

Rear lower crank seal (rope) and oil pan gasket replaced. Man....this would be so much easier if the car was on a lift......I'm getting (gotten!) too old to be wallowing around under an old car on jack stands with oil dripping in my face.  I'l be able to raise my arms above my shoulders in a couple of weeks.....  ?

 

Many thanks to the forum member who suggested making guide pins to assist with reinstalling the pan, that really helped align the pan until a few bolts were in place. Very messy job but glad I now know what was in the bottom end, in my case, very little, am blessed with a clean engine. I just hope my gasket/seals don't leak, don't want a redo! Five quarts of Walmart's 10W-30 detergent oil is now in the sump---Wix oil filter mount and bypass filter is on the way from Rock Auto.

Edited July 4, 2019 by Sam Buchanan

[greg g]

You will need another half quart of oil to top up after you empty the filter canister.  Step one borrow the turkey baster and secret it in the garage...

[chrysler1941]

On 7/3/2019 at 9:23 PM, soth122003 said:

Hey Sam,

 

Don't know about the seal, but if the car has been using a detergent oil, I usually get the 5 quart jug of super tech 10-30 at Wal-Mart. Been using that for over 6 years in mine and no problems at all. Where at in Bama do you live? I live in Niceville Fl. but my dad and brother lives in Florence Ala.

 

Joe Lee

Looks like use of non-detergent oil.

 

    "When early engines (prior to 1954) were new, oil filters were an accessory item and non-detergent oil was the type of oil used. Original, unrestored engines have most likely been run on non-detergent oil. If you are running an early unrestored engine that is not spotlessly clean internally, it is imperative to continue to run it on non-detergent oil. Otherwise there is the risk of damage to the engine.

Non-detergent oil was used before oil filters became standard equipment. This type of oil would "stick" contaminants to the sidewalls and valleys of the engine to prevent dirty oil from damaging bearing surfaces. Engines that have been run on non-detergent oil for many years will have a thick "sludge" buildup. Sludge will appear to be oil that has turned to gelatin except that it will be very black with contaminants.

Using detergent oil in an engine that had been running non-detergent oil would allow these contaminants to be released to flow through the engine. This could result in serious damage to the rod, main and cam bearings as well as other engine components such as lifters and plugging of oil lines.

Edited July 5, 2019 by chrysler1941

[Sam Buchanan]

Here are the guide pins that I found very useful for installing the pan. They are made from 5/16" bolts and one on each side of the pan was enough to get all the holes aligned so the bolts could be started. Slip the pan over the pins, then hold the pan up with one hand while starting a couple of bolts. Of course, a jack could be used to hold the pan in place.....but that would be too practical....

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Sam Buchanan

[Dodgeb4ya]

I use those same pins but six of them... one at each pan corner to keep the corner gaskets exactly where they need to be. One each side in the center.

I have done  this on many engines.

I also use eight small push pins to hold the pan gaskets to the end gaskets as shown..two at each corner. 

I want the gaskets to stay where they need to be and not squirt out of place.

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Dodgeb4ya

[TodFitch]

1 hour ago, chrysler1941 said:

"When early engines (prior to 1954) were new, oil filters were an accessory item . . .

 

. . . Using detergent oil in an engine that had been running non-detergent oil would allow these contaminants to be released to flow through the engine. This could result in serious damage to the rod, main and cam bearings as well as other engine components such as lifters and plugging of oil lines.

 

In the early 1930s oil filters were standard on Plymouths. By the mid to late 1930s the lower end (business, Road King, etc.) models had dropped them, my guess being for production cost reasons. Implying they were always an accessory prior to 1954 is wrong.

 

Periodic maintenance in the 1930s included dropping and cleaning the pan. For example the DeLuxe Plymouth Six Instruction Book for 1933 says

Cleaning Oil Pan and Screen

At least once a year, preferably in the fall, the oil pan should be removed from the engine and thoroughly washed. The oil strainer should be removed and washed at this time.

The point being that sludge in the engine is bad regardless of the type of oil. It can come loose at any time and clog the bearings, etc. The solution is to remove the sludge from the engine, not to avoid oil with detergent additives. Those additives, by the way, are not sufficient to loosen old sludge. They are designed simply to keep new sludge from forming. The old sludge may loosen any time the engine is being run simply by the flow of oil though the ares where the sludge exists.

[kencombs]

I'd post  pic of the oil pan removed from my '56 Ply engine that is being redone for my PU,, but, I failed to take one as it was when removed.  And it may cause nausea for those with weak stomachs.  It was really bad.  At least an inch of gunk in the bottom.  Not hard, just gooey, stringy stuff. 

 

No filter, and probably not many changes.  suprisingly, the internals were OK.  10/10 crank with no measurable wear, 40 bore with minimal wear etc.

 

It will get a filter on reassembly.  Still mulling full flow conversion vs bypass.

[soth122003]

Didn't the oils back then have a paraffin or wax additive to help catch the contaminants?

 

Joe Lee

[chrysler1941]

4 hours ago, TodFitch said:

 

In the early 1930s oil filters were standard on Plymouths. By the mid to late 1930s the lower end (business, Road King, etc.) models had dropped them, my guess being for production cost reasons. Implying they were always an accessory prior to 1954 is wrong.

 

 

Yes same goes for high end GM cars. Cadillac dropped filters after introduction of hydraulic lifter in 1937. Article copied from the net only to distinguish between detergent  and non detergent . Probably written by some Ford guy ?

[kencombs]

10 minutes ago, soth122003 said:

Didn't the oils back then have a paraffin or wax additive to help catch the contaminants?

 

Joe Lee

Not so much an additive, mostly 'native' paraffin that was not removed in the refining process.  Pennzoil and Quaker state were known for that.

 

I've torn down Ford Y-blocks, which were known for upper end oiling issues, where the rocker arms shape couldn't be determined due to the deposits.

[Sam Buchanan]

4 hours ago, chrysler1941 said:

 

Article copied from the net only to distinguish between detergent  and non detergent . Probably written by some Ford guy ?

 

Hey....if it was copied from the net then it has to be true....right?  ?