Rear brake work time

[White Spyder]

It's time for the rear brakes on my Windsor to be re-worked. They are dragging. I replace the hoses a couple of year ago when I did the front disk conversion so, I believe that the wheel cylinders need to be replaced. Any hints or suggestions to make the move go smoothly would be much appreciated. 

[keithb7]

What year Windsor? Original Lockheed brakes? 

[keithb7]

Assuming your rear brakes are stock, I can share my experience with my ‘53 rear brakes. 

 

Remove wheels and axle nut. Acquire larger 3 arm puller often mentioned on this site. Pull drums. 

Initial inspection may show signs of brake fuild leakage at the wheel cylinders. Depending what you find, you may want new shoes new return springs, hardware etc. 

 

Look at your shoe wear surfaces  for signs of uneven wear. Indicating misaligned shoes.  Look at your drums for grooves. Good drums are smooth across the wear surface. Measure drum internal area for total wear. Compare to spec. 

 

Brake fluid by nature absorbs moisture. Even humidity in the air eventually causes problems. This water/brake fluid mixture sits in enclosed areas such as wheel cylinders, master cylinder and brake likes. All winter or longer. Corrosion takes place when steel and water sits.Then the piston in the cylinder can rust, freezing in place.  Best practice is to flush out all brake fluid with new, every 3-5 years. A Mity-Vac is a wonderful tool I recommend for this job. 

 

You can elect to simply replace the wheel cylinders. Or clean and hone your originals, possibly. Depending on how bad the pitting is, general cylinder condition and if measured within spec. All new piston seals and dust boots and you could be good to go. 

 

Be prepared for rusty original brake lines. They can strip or break off when you attempt to remove them from the rear of the cylinder. 

Personally, I bought new straight steel lines and hand bent them to shape and fit. I sourced tooling and practiced flaring. I made my own double inverted flare ends.  I am comfortable with my work in that I put my life on the line driving the car regularly. All went well with new brake lines. 

 

Brakes will need to be bled after all this work. While you are accessing the master cylinder to top up, pull the cap and clean the tiny air breather hole. This is important. 

 

Best tool I ever used on my Windsor is the homemade tool I made. Pic if it is below, showing front wheel application. I use it to accurately set the shoes concentric to the axle centre. Some type of tool or method to get this right is pretty much mandatory. Otherwise you’ll struggle to get the brake performance you’ll expect.  Reinstall your drums and set your minor adjustment.   This is easily done.

 

Rear brake assy shown for reference.  -Keith

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 2, 2019 by keithb7

[White Spyder]

3 hours ago, keithb7 said:

What year Windsor? Original Lockheed brakes? 

It is a '48.  

[TodFitch]

Concur with keithb7 that if you have the stock axle you'll need a good drum puller. Any other method to attempt to remove the drums will likely end in damage to either you or the drums.

 

I've seen some say they use a 1/2" impact wrench on the axle nut to remove it but I guess my 1/2" impact wrench is not as robust as theirs. I usually end up using a breaker bar. The nut is supposed to be torqued to at least 142 ft-lbs so it can take a bit of force to loosen it.

 

I think it is good practice to replace the axle nut on the axle after removing the washer, just flush with the end of the axle. The nut will retain the drum from flying across the room doing untold damage if it suddenly release from the axle. And it will prevent the puller from damaging the threads on the end of the axle.

 

Last time I had to get into the rear drums I took some photos of the process to remove the drum, you can see them at https://www.ply33.com/Repair/axle_seal/

[White Spyder]

When I did the front convertion to disc brakes I replace all the lines and hoses. I will start looking for a good drum puller. I plan to use ne cylinders, shoes and springs. 

 

Thanks for the tips. 

[Sam Buchanan]

1 hour ago, White Spyder said:

When I did the front convertion to disc brakes I replace all the lines and hoses. I will start looking for a good drum puller. I plan to use ne cylinders, shoes and springs. 

 

Thanks for the tips. 

 

This puller made quick work of pulling the drums on my P15.

 

[Andydodge]

This is the one I got years ago...........its never met a brake drum that it didn't like.........lol.........andyd 

[westaus29]

If you plan on fitting new shoes I recommend they should be machined to fit the drums as if diameters dont match you can seriously lose braking efficiency. Old drums are usually worn larger in diameter and would not match up to new standard shoes. I personally take old shoes and drums to a brake specialist who renews the linings (with oversize if necessary) and machines all to fit for a very reasonable price. They also can check that wear is within specs.

Jim 

[soth122003]

Hey Spyder,

Something else a lot of people do is before putting the drum back on, clean it and the tapered axle with a scotch bright or very fine emery cloth then apply a very light film of grease or anti seize to the tapered shaft (do not gob it on). this will make it easier to pull next time and reduce any corrosion build in the future.

 

Joe Lee

[kencombs]

1 hour ago, soth122003 said:

Hey Spyder,

Something else a lot of people do is before putting the drum back on, clean it and the tapered axle with a scotch bright or very fine emery cloth then apply a very light film of grease or anti seize to the tapered shaft (do not gob it on). this will make it easier to pull next time and reduce any corrosion build in the future.

 

Joe Lee

To each his own.  But, please read the shop manual.  It explicitly states the axle and hub are to be clean and dry.  Anything that lubes the surface moves the torque from the designed location, the tapered fit, to the axle key.  The key cannot be depended upon to do that job alone.

[Merle Coggins]

I agree with Ken. I don’t recommend any lube on the tapered shaft . It should be clean and dry. The torque transfer between the axle shaft and hub is dependent on that metal to metal contact. The key helps too, but shouldn’t be expected to take the full torque load. 

[soth122003]

9 hours ago, kencombs said:

To each his own.  But, please read the shop manual.  It explicitly states the axle and hub are to be clean and dry.  Anything that lubes the surface moves the torque from the designed location, the tapered fit, to the axle key.  The key cannot be depended upon to do that job alone.

 

6 hours ago, Merle Coggins said:

I agree with Ken. I don’t recommend any lube on the tapered shaft . It should be clean and dry. The torque transfer between the axle shaft and hub is dependent on that metal to metal contact. The key helps too, but shouldn’t be expected to take the full torque load. 

 

Fair enough guys. Like you said to each his own, but I'll state the reason I do mine with a bit of lube.

 

Although I read in the manual I couldn't find that, but I believe that the Dodge and Plymouth manuals differ in some assembly aspects. But I will say that 50-70 years ago I would do the dry mount. But with the passage of that much time you have micro wear on the shaft and hub. When you pop them apart you can see the light (and sometimes heavy) rust and corrosion on the shaft and hub that make it so hard to get them off. All I am doing is using less than a micron of thickness of a lube (a dab on the fingers and rub it on, then wipe off with a rag)  to stop the corrosion and making it easier for me to work on it (especially in very humid and hot areas Like Fla.). That being said I would never tell some one how to maintain their car. I just making a suggestion. 

 

Joe Lee

[White Spyder]

Ordered cylinders, springs and shoes from Andy B's. Also getting a drum puller. 

[White Spyder]

Started the project. I am having trouble getting the castle/axle nut loose. Right side was easy just a bit of pressure and it was loose. Left side I couldn't get it to budge. Used Some penitrating oil, hit the wrench with a dead blow hammer even tried an air wrench. 

 

Should I try a breaker bar or heat next?

[TodFitch]

13 minutes ago, White Spyder said:

Started the project. I am having trouble getting the castle/axle nut loose. Right side was easy just a bit of pressure and it was loose. Left side I couldn't get it to budge. Used Some penitrating oil, hit the wrench with a dead blow hammer even tried an air wrench. 

 

Should I try a breaker bar or heat next?

 

Breaker bar. The nut is supposed to be tightened to “at least” 142 ft-lbs so it is, or should be, pretty tight. I'm trying to remember if my 1/2" impact wrench was sufficient to get the nut off the last time I had to get into the rear brakes. . . I do remember having to get the breaker bar out but that might have been for something else.

[MackTheFinger]

 

17 minutes ago, White Spyder said:

Started the project. I am having trouble getting the castle/axle nut loose. Right side was easy just a bit of pressure and it was loose. Left side I couldn't get it to budge. Used Some penitrating oil, hit the wrench with a dead blow hammer even tried an air wrench. 

 

Should I try a breaker bar or heat next?

 

I'd go for a breaker bar although a slugging wrench would be my first choice if you can find one in the correct size.

[keithb7]

My ½” drive 24” long breaker bar knows that axle nut intimately. 

[kencombs]

At times like that, I'm sure happy with my IR impact and 165psi shop air!   If that's not available, I'd use a good s 3/4"drive six point socket, breaker bar and 4lb hammer.  My 1/2" stuff flexes too much.

[White Spyder]

Got it! Used a 4' pipe over my 1/2 inch drive. When it let go, there was a loud bang and I thought I had broken the driver. Getting that side drum off was also tough  glad I invested in the puller. 

[White Spyder]

Putting the new return springs back was a B$&@?  The ones from Andy's are noticeable shorter than the ones that were on them. 

[White Spyder]

Another question. On the bottom shoe pins there is an arrow etched into the end inside of adjusting pin. When installing new shoes, where should the arrow point to star the adjustment process?  Straight up, facing inward or facing outward?

 

thanks,

[Sam Buchanan]

1 hour ago, White Spyder said:

Another question. On the bottom shoe pins there is an arrow etched into the end inside of adjusting pin. When installing new shoes, where should the arrow point to star the adjustment process?  Straight up, facing inward or facing outward?

 

thanks,

 

This article in the Technical section of the forum is recommended reading and will answer your question along with providing insight into how these old brakes work:

 

http://p15-d24.com/page/p15d24/tech/brakes.html/

 

If you don't thoroughly understand how the brakes function and are adjusted, you may end up with brakes that are ineffective at best and downright dangerous at worst.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Sam Buchanan

[White Spyder]

Update; I have been on the road for work and finally got a chance to do some more work. Disconnected the lines and pulled the cylinders, got the springs back on and went through the adjustment process. Tightened the all the nuts and started to bleed brakes at the right rear. 

 

I can not not seem to get the air out of either side. It is like there is a air leak in the system.  No fluid is leaking  at any point along the lines or at the wheels. I have gotten more than a pint of clear fluid through the bleeders (yes I have been putting fresh fluid in after a pump or 2 on the peddle) Is it possible that the new cylinders are bad? When I get my wife to press the peddle and hold it down, the rear brakes are not contacting the drums as if the cylinders are not pushing outward. 

Edited August 25, 2019 by White Spyder

[JerseyHarold]

Take a look at the links that go into the wheel cylinders that push the shoes out when your foot is on the pedal.  Some links have a much deeper slot than others, so when the cylinder pushes out the links they do not move the shoes.  If the pistons move too far out (another possibility with incorrect links) they can leak brake fluid.