CHANGE TITLE "Fuel Pump, Putz"

[48ply1stcar]

I didn't know that I didn't have a viable fuel pump for two years.  I tried to fiix everything else because how could my new fuel pump be the problem.  I purchased a Airtex fuel pump in 2015 for my recent purchase of a 56 flathead.  I convented the 56 12 volt to 6 volt with everthing from my worn out 53.  A long thread a very long thread.  Finally had the engine professionally rebuit.  Re-installed the fuel pump in 2016.  2017 interior and suspension projects, but I was never happy with the preformance of the rebuilt engine.  Carburetor adjustments, distributor adjustments until I was crazy.  Fuel Volume test finally told me the the pump didn't pump enough fuel.

 

Am I the only person that is NOT using a electic fuel pump to replace or supplement a Airtex style fuel pump?

 

I have been thinking about using a good (expensive) electic pump.  I had a old pump mounted on the frame under the driver's seat I removed it twenty years ago when I brought the car back to life.  The mechancial pump was good enough. So replace or supplement?

 

Additionally, I read a statement of a person (1949 goat) that put a bead of weld on the lever to increase the lenght of the stroke.  Has anyone else done this?  If the pump is garbage why not try something.

 

Hope to rebuild my old AC fuel fuel pump, the one that work just fine for many years.

Edited June 5, 2018 by 48ply1stcar
wrong name

[desoto1939]

I have a 588 stock mechanical fuel pump on my 39 Desoto that has the glass bowel on the bottom of the FP.  I also use an electric pump just to prime the carb after the car has sat a long time.  I do not runt he electric pump to feed the car when running down the road only use the mechanical pump and have no issues.  This ump has been on the car for 10+ years.  When you state that the pump did not pump enough how much volume were you getting?

 

The electric fuel pumps are not very expensive and I use an Airtex pump that I think cost me around $40. I see the mechanical pumps going for 90+ dollars on the Ebay. Have you ever replace the breaker plate assembly with a NOS unit the performance might be this becasue the breaker plate wear as they get older.

 

I do not think the issue is with the mechanical pump.

 

Please provide more input so we can try to diagnose  the issue.

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[48ply1stcar]

After getting a lot of good advise on the carburetor and distributor over the past month (and by the way thanks to everyone) I finally did a volume test.  I got about 4 ounces for 12 strokes.  I have an in-line filter on the frame so I did a volume test using a gas can from there.  (4 ounces)  I blew out fuel lines, replaces the rubber fuel lines, and remove the bowl on the FP blew it out same result.  Placed the gas can under the fuel pump with the new rubber fuel line in the gas can no change.

 

Last thread that made me decide it was the fuel pump.

Thread about the engine blogging down at high RPM that lead me to finally checking the fuel flow on a relatively new FP.

 

[48ply1stcar]

I'm lending toward the weld on the pump lever to get a longer stroke or rebuilding that old AC pump if I can get the parts.  I must have bought the AC fuel pump for the 53 218 sometime in the late 90s so I should be able to find a rebuild kit.

[vintage6t]

1 hour ago, 48ply1stcar said:

I'm lending toward the weld on the pump lever to get a longer stroke or rebuilding that old AC pump if I can get the parts.  I must have bought the AC fuel pump for the 53 218 sometime in the late 90s so I should be able to find a rebuild kit.

Not saying a weld wont work but I'd be worried about the uneven surface of a weld concentrating pressure on a small single spot of the cam lobe that drives the pump possibly scarring the lobe or wearing it unevenly. In other words you no longer have to smooth surfaces interfacing with each other over area they were designed to operate with.

[nkeiser]

My uncle tried welding up the lever arm of the fuel pump to get more fuel. It must not have worked because it had an electric fuel pump on it when I got it. It was either the pump going bad, or the lobe on the cam rounding off.

[Dodgeb4ya]

That weld lump cannot be too good for the cam lobe?

[halffast52]

I bought two airtex pumps from rock auto the one I put on my 52 works great with no issues the other I put on my 47 had diaphragm issues right out of the box I would try to find a rebuild kit for the ac... as others have said I would not put weld on the arm

[mmcdowel]

I went through two Airtex fuel pumps from Amazon....was suspicious they had been used because the boxes were dirty.  Sure enough both leaked.  Got a refund from Amazon and got a new one off Rock Auto thats worked fine the last couple of years (knock on wood).

 

[9 foot box]

Rock Auto has a Carter pump, angled or straight. M2091 or M2090  are the numbers.   $37 or $65

[48ply1stcar]

8 hours ago, 9 foot box said:

Rock Auto has a Carter pump, angled or straight. M2091 or M2090  are the numbers.   $37 or $65

I wonder why more people don't memtion this pump.  According to the "Summit" web site they fit 230 and it's NOT a Airtex.

[DrDoctor]

  I also purchased an Airtex fuel pump from Rock Auto several years ago. Price was reasonable, delivered in a few days, and it works like a charm. I don’t trust Amazon—too many stories like mmcdowel’s. lastly, welding on the fuel pump’s actuator arm is really not a good idea, as that’ll ruin the eccentric lobe on the cam shaft that pushes on the pump’s actuator arm.

[48ply1stcar]

I have decided not to go with the weld, but I can't make myself buy another Airtex 73201 until I find one that works.  Apparently, that one fuel pump is too little of their sales to care if they all work.  I guess I was not impressed the customer service response.

[greg g]

Just an FYI the lob on the camshaft for the fuel pump is separate, it does also operate a valve, it is basically an off center circle.  Antique Parts cellar seems to be mentioned offer as a reliable source of rebuild kits.

Edited June 8, 2018 by greg g

[Merle Coggins]

They just go by Then and Now Automotive now. The web site says, "A Division of Antique Parts Cellar".

I've used them a couple of times for fuel pump kits. Good quality parts, and good folks to deal with when there's a question on what you have.

http://www.then-now-auto.com/fuel-pumps/

[48ply1stcar]

I received my Carter P4259, 6 volt electric fuel pump today.  I also have a rebuild kit on the way for my old AC 588(?)

Question:  IF the Mechanical fuel pump can't keep up do I by-pass the fuel pump with the electric?

Edited June 9, 2018 by 48ply1stcar

[Jerry Roberts]

1 hour ago, 48ply1stcar said:

Question:  IF the Mechanical fuel pump can't keep up do I by-pass the fuel pump with the electric?

Edited 1 hour ago by 48ply1stcar

I think that that would be the best way . Also I would remove the mechanical fuel pump completely and make a block off plate for the hole . That is what I do with my vehicle . 

[48ply1stcar]

I wrote this on another thread.  This is where I am so far.

 

 This past month I have shared the issues I have had with my Airtex manual FP.  This past week I added a Carter P4259 Electric FP.  I mounted the electric pump in front of the rear spring with a filter before it. Additionally, I added a "oil pressure switch" which works properly, in which  I am thrilled, I also added another clear plastic fuel filter and fuel pressure regulator just before the carburetor.  I added a on/off switch in line from the ignition to the "oil pressure switch", thought it was picture perfect.  Ran rough, fuel filter at the carb was not full and when I disconnected the filter from the input side the fuel was under pressure and gushed out.

 

So I think now I have too much combined fuel pump pressure. 

 

Before installing the electric pump the car started, idled fine and ran until the end of 2nd gear or 50 MPH in third gear.  mechanical pump only delivered 4 ounces of fuel during a fuel volume test.  That's why I added the electric pump.

 

I think I'll have to use the mechanical pump until I reach highway speed then turn on the electric pump.  Also considering a parallel fuel line around the electric pump that might aid the mechanical pump when the electric pump is off.

 

All of this may be fix when I rebuild my AC588 FP.  I never had a fuel delivery issue until I installed my rebuilt motor and retired the AC588, for the new Airtex 73201.

[48ply1stcar]

Thinking doing this to relieve pressure.

 

I found this picture on a FORD site.  Now I wonder if the by-pass line has a fuel filter or a check-valve mounted there.

 

Edited June 17, 2018 by 48ply1stcar
Added info

[desoto1939]

I can see what you are doing but the straight line from the tank goes into a metal filter then the electric FP.

The upper line connects prior to the inline fuel filter then looks to run thru anohter filter and then connects back into the fuel supply line.

So in real time the mechanical pump is really pulling gas thru the electric pump even when it is turned off and the upper line is pulling fuel from the gas tank via the mechanical FP at the same time.

 

So with so many connections is there any possibilty of a air leak, but if there is a n air leak I would think that you would have a fuel leak issue also.

You stated that this issue startd after the engine rebuild can you verify that the engine build polished the crankshaft and then might have taken to much metal off the fp lobe.  This is just a thought but that seems to me to be the issue. So if the car ran fine with proper FP volume prior to the rebuild then I would think that there is an issue with the FP lobe.  I am not a mechanic but that is where I would be looking.  Also let us know what your results are after the AC588 FP rebuild and then installed on the car.

 

Rich HArtung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[48ply1stcar]

The rebuild is a different block.  when my 53 218 started to die I bought a 230.  They both needed to be rebuilt so I had the 230 rebuilt. 

 

I just seems that the mechancial can't pull through that pump, Carter P4259.  Everybody on this site gets to learn through my mistakes.

  

[DJ194950]

Check your fuel pump pressure now with the electric pump- if it is over 3-3 1/2 lb. it is probably is to high for the carter carb which like it low. Too high pressure let gas will get past the float needle and cause issues. Worth a check before all the other possible changes?

 

Caution do Not buy the cheapest fuel pressure regulator at the parts store. Never had any good luck with them working properly it the pressure is to high. Only a couple more $ will get one t

that actually works!

 

Good luck.   ?

 

DJ

[desoto1939]

do you have a dual action fp on the new engine?  My FP on my 39 Desoto is a single action FP. If a dual action pump it would have a vacuum line to attach the hose to run the vacuum wiper motor.  My 39 Desoto has electric wiper so no dual action fp.  Just another thought. You might have a leak if you have a dual action pump and therefore lees fuel pressure. Most pumps pull between 3-5 lbs of pressure.  just putting out some thoughts on your issue.

Also can you explain the routing of the fuel lines that you showed in the pictures.

Rich Hartung 

[Pete]

Hi all,

 

I put a Carter electric fuel pump on my 39 Plymouth. Used only for priming as I kept the mechanical fuel pump. The Carter was very loud. A problem I found with it was fuel starvation going up the big long hill to my place. Never happened with just the mechanical pump. If I turned the Carter FP on no starvation. I eventually replaced it with a low pressure Airtex electric pump and it was much quieter and all worked as before -- I could make the hill with no fuel starvation and kept the Airtex off. It was apparent the Carter electric pump was causing a restriction when turned off. I did not and do not have a by-pass installed. Both electric pumps were mounted back by the fuel tank with an in-line filter in between. Just my experience.
 

Pete

[48ply1stcar]

AN UPDATE OF ALL THE THINGS I HAVE DONE, RIGHT, WRONG OR JUST STUPID!

1. Installed Carter P4259 on the frame in front of the rear spring mount, at the same time I installed a Mr. Gasket fuel pressure gauge at the carburetor.  No fuel to the carb. Also the pump is large and hangs about inch below the frame.

2.  I made a by-pass around the electric fuel pump.  No luck.  Later I put a check valve in that line.

3.  Rebuilt fuel pump I found on the work bench, 

The one with the glass bowl.  It was my first rebuild of a fuel pump.  Doesn't work, I had to use a punch to remove one valve and a seal puller to dig ou the other.  New valves are too small and fall out of place.  The kit came with washers the size of the valves, still fell out so I put a dab of fuel resistant sealer on the edge to help.  The pump doesn't pump and I can pull fuel through the pump with a hand vacuum-pump. Tried pumping into a coffe can, nothing.

 

HERE'S THE WORST PART.  While trying to get fuel to the carburetor I tried it without the fuel regulator.  Finally realized I put the regulator on backwards.  Removed the regulator, but it doesn't matter because the fuel pump doesn't PUMP.

 

I have a pretty car maybe a should happy to use it as a lawn ornament.

 

Administrator, maybe I should be given my own FORUM of things not to do, or I could be used as a bad example.  

Edited June 22, 2018 by 48ply1stcar
spelling error