236.6 cu in engine

[swschenk]

Greetings All:  I have a 1950 Desoto Carry All Sedan with the 236.6 cu in engine, fluid drive coupling and M6 tip-toe.  My question is this: How do you unstick an engine?  I purchased this vehicle recently and from what I know[which isn't much] is the last time it was registered was 1962.  This car has sat since then.  The seller said he tried to turn over the motor.  He wouldn't tell me if he was successful or not.  My assumption is he probably fried the electrics and the engine was stuck.  Any ideas?

This topic has not been addressed

 

[whtbaron]

I know others have had luck soaking the cylinders in PB Blaster or Marvel Mystery Oil and turning the crank with a breaker bar on the nut on the crankshaft pulley, but I must say I've never been that lucky. Remember to leave the plugs out if you try this or you could get a fluid lock. I've always had to remove the head and tap the tops of the pistons (go easy or you'll break things) with a BFH and a wooden plug to fit the cylinder. Often you will find that  the rust has formed where the carbon holds the moisture at the top of the cylinder. Hopefully it's not from moisture sitting on the rings, or the cylinder walls may be pitted beyond repair.

[55 Fargo]

There is a lot of "depends" on this topic, and how it's seized and how badly it's seized.

Some have been successful, with ATF/Diesel, filling up the cylinders and allowing it to soak for a while.

Is there a stuck valve(s), is there a piston and rings rusted solid to a cylinder wall? Is the crank seized?

You may get lucky, with soaking the cyls and/or spraying the valve lifters with some type of penetrating oil.

Most likely the head will need to come off, to see what is going on.

The worst case, is the engine needs to come out, pistons smashed out, and a complete overhaul. Or find a replacement engine and swap.

I would trying the soaking with ATF/diesel first and see if you can get it to budge.

[55 Fargo]

I know others have had luck soaking the cylinders in PB Blaster or Marvel Mystery Oil and turning the crank with a breaker bar on the nut on the crankshaft pulley, but I must say I've never been that lucky. Remember to leave the plugs out if you try this or you could get a fluid lock. I've always had to remove the head and tap the tops of the pistons (go easy or you'll break things) with a BFH and a wooden plug to fit the cylinder. Often you will find that  the rust has formed where the carbon holds the moisture at the top of the cylinder. Hopefully it's not from moisture sitting on the rings, or the cylinder walls may be pitted beyond repair.

Those cyls can be bored out a lot, but if they are .060 already, it could be trouble. Going out to .125 ain't unheard of...

[swschenk]

I will try the Marvel Mystery Oil and the crank and breaker bar in the next few days.   I will let them soak for a while.  I guess it all depends on how long I can hold my breath.  I would rather rebuild this block since it is original.  Thanks for the replies

[vintage6t]

I would use ATF/Diesel and as mentioned above fill the cylinders and let it soak at least a week prior to trying to turn it. Also I've had good luck with Kroil, which is a fantastic penetrating oil.

[Frank Elder]

This topic has not been addressed....it has been discussed every year since I've been on here........over and over and turn your engine over...lol.

[55 Fargo]

swschenk, I am 1 who has no problem with you asking questions on here whether it has been archived or not.

You can also use the "search" feature, but if at that point you are not satisfied, please feel free to post and ask your question.

You will find some who take offence to those who do not try and answer there own concerns first Via the search process, just to give you a "heads Up". I am not normally of that mindset.

So welcome to the Forum, and good luck with your mission on getting this engine free, please update and post on your progress, so some future member, might find it archived to help them with a similar situation......good luck

[Frank Elder]

Of course he is free to ask all the questions he cares to....just as I am allowed freedom of speech, I'm not chastising anyone by simply stating a fact, if this thread helps the OP and others down the line so much the better.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Frank Elder

[halffast52]

I recently purchased a p-15 frame for my 48 biz coupe it has a 39 Plymouth truck engine in it the seller said it was seized I pulled the starter off it and the starter drive was stuck out used a pry bar on the flywheel and she turns easy I know I just got lucky.. it doesn't happen a lot but sometimes when you try to start them with 12 volts the starter drive jumps the pins that has only happened once on our Cranbrook.  the 51 club coupe has never done it and runs 12 volts with the 6 volt starter not saying you will get that lucky but while you soak the cylinders you could pull the starter and see if it will turn by the flywheel  good luck with it

Edited January 29, 2016 by halffast52

[55 Fargo]

Of course he is free to ask all the questions he cares to....just as I am allowed freedom of speech, I'm not chastising anyone by simply stating a fact, if this thread helps the OP and other down the line so much the better.

I know that Frankie, and you were only teasing him, as there has been a lot of talk over the years on this subject. Its all good...

[Young Ed]

I recently purchased a p-15 frame for my 48 biz coupe it has a 39 Plymouth truck engine in it the seller said it was seized I pulled the starter off it and the starter drive was stuck out used a pry bar on the flywheel and she turns easy I know I just got lucky.. it doesn't happen a lot but sometimes when you try to start them with 12 volts the starter drive jumps the pins that has only happened once on our Cranbrook.  the 51 club coupe has never done it and runs 12 volts with the 6 volt starter not saying you will get that lucky but while you soak the cylinders you could pull the starter and see if it will turn by the flywheel  good luck with it

 

If that's a PT81 engine you'll find someone looking to buy that.

[falconvan]

A trick my dad did on an old engine was to take a pan of trans fluid and heat it up on the BBQ grill until it got really hot. Then he dumped it down the spark plug holes with a funnel and stuck the plugs back in. The next day he pulled the plugs and put a breaker bar on the crank and it turned. I guess the heat expanded everything and let the fluid get down into the rings. 

[knuckleharley]

The best thing I have ever found to break free a truly stuck engine is carb cleaner and 125 or more PSI of compressed air. A lot of times the engine is stuck due to the nature of aluminum pistons and their chemical reaction to steel rings and cylinder walls. Nothing cleans aluminum corrosion like carb cleaner.

 

The high pressure air only works for the cylinders with closed valves,but it's worth a shot because those might be the only ones stuck because no air has been circulating there.

 

If worse comes to worse and the carb cleaner doesn't leak past the rings on it's own so you can't put ATF/diesel fuel in there for lube,you are going to have to pull the head and the valve covers on the side of the block and use a plastic tipped hammer to shut the valves. You can then put the head back on,fill two cylinders at a time that have the piston down at least the height of the piston with carb cleaner, and screw in one of those "valve hold open" devices into the spark plug holes so you can use your air compressor to force the carb cleaner past the rings. Take the oil filler cap off,and sit near the car and take a break until you hear "glug,glug,glug" noises coming from the crankcase. Once you hear that,refill those two cylinders with the ATF/Diesel fuel mixture and put air pressure on that to lube the rings and bore. Frankly,I just use straight ATF.

 

Repeat the process until you have used air pressure to break the bond between all the pistons,rings,and cylinder walls and lube them with the atf.  Then put a breaker bar or ratchet on the crank nut and rotate the engine. Turn it about 180 degrees,and then add more atf to each cylinder. Rotate it again one full revolution,and then hit the starter with the plugs still out and spin the engine until you build up oil pressure. This can take a while. I was about ready to give up and was thinking the oil pump in my 49 DeSoto was broken before I tried one last time,and damned if it didn't pump up to 60 psi with the plugs out.

 

Your final step will be to put the lifters back in the engine and adjust the valves. Put the side plates back on,put the plugs back in,and start the engine.

 

This process is considerably quicker with OHV engines,but works with flatheads,too. I have never seen it fail to free up a stuck engine without breaking anything. Every engine I have used this method on has turned with a ratchet on the crank nut when I was done.

[MacGyver]

Soak, heat, beat, repeat!

 

 

Here's the 'study' that always gets referenced in these discussions. 

 

"Machinist's Workshop" recently published information on various penetrating
oils. The magazine reports they tested these products for "break out
"torque" on rusted nuts and bolts. A subjective test was made of popular
penetrating oils, with the unit of merit being the torque  required to
remove the nut from a "scientifically rusted"  bolt.
Average torque load to loosen nut:
No Oil used ........................516 foot pounds
WD-40 ..................... ........238 foot pounds
PB Blaster .........................214 foot pounds
Liquid Wrench ......................127 foot pounds
Kano Kroil .........................106 foot pounds
ATF/Acetone mix...................... 53 foot pounds

The ATF/Acetone mix is a "home brew" mix of 50/50 automatic transmission
fluid and acetone. Note this "home brew" released bolts better than any
commercial product in this one particular test.
Our local machinist group mixed up a batch, and we all now use it with
equally good results. Note also that Liquid Wrench is almost as good as
Kroil for 20% of the price.
ATF/Acetone mix is best, but you can also use ATF and lacquer thinner in a
50/50 mix.  ATF = Any type of Automatic Transmission Fluid"

Edited January 29, 2016 by MacGyver

[janan5243]

I've had success with a mix of ATF & diesel fuel. Pour in cylinders, let sit for several days & try socket & breaker bar on crankshaft/pulley nut. If it moves, I would move in both directions, a little bit in each direction until you can complete a full revolution. In worst case situation, pull head, soak cylinders with mix & use hammer & block of wood on  cylinders, moving from piston to piston. Very important to use proper size block. Too small & you can crack piston. Good Luck.

[halffast52]

If that's a PT81 engine you'll find someone looking to buy that.

not to hijack the op's thread but yes it is a PT81

[46Ply]

I recently purchased a p-15 frame for my 48 biz coupe it has a 39 Plymouth truck engine in it the seller said it was seized I pulled the starter off it and the starter drive was stuck out used a pry bar on the flywheel and she turns easy I know I just got lucky.. it doesn't happen a lot but sometimes when you try to start them with 12 volts the starter drive jumps the pins that has only happened once on our Cranbrook.  the 51 club coupe has never done it and runs 12 volts with the 6 volt starter not saying you will get that lucky but while you soak the cylinders you could pull the starter and see if it will turn by the flywheel  good luck with it

I did the same thing.  Reminds me of the 47 DeSoto I had in about 1960.  Engine seized while sitting in my storage building.  Took the flywheel cover off, used a crowbar to rock the flywheel back and forth.  Put some oil down the spark plug openings.  Finally got it free enough to start.  My brother and I used a log chain to pull it.  When it fired, we killed all the bugs and mosquitoes in the next mile and a half, when she finally fired up!

[timkingsbury]

Soak, heat, beat, repeat!

 

 

Here's the 'study' that always gets referenced in these discussions. 

 

"Machinist's Workshop" recently published information on various penetrating

oils. The magazine reports they tested these products for "break out

"torque" on rusted nuts and bolts. A subjective test was made of popular

penetrating oils, with the unit of merit being the torque  required to

remove the nut from a "scientifically rusted"  bolt.

Average torque load to loosen nut:

No Oil used ........................516 foot pounds

WD-40 ..................... ........238 foot pounds

PB Blaster .........................214 foot pounds

Liquid Wrench ......................127 foot pounds

Kano Kroil .........................106 foot pounds

ATF/Acetone mix...................... 53 foot pounds

The ATF/Acetone mix is a "home brew" mix of 50/50 automatic transmission

fluid and acetone. Note this "home brew" released bolts better than any

commercial product in this one particular test.

Our local machinist group mixed up a batch, and we all now use it with

equally good results. Note also that Liquid Wrench is almost as good as

Kroil for 20% of the price.

ATF/Acetone mix is best, but you can also use ATF and lacquer thinner in a

50/50 mix.  ATF = Any type of Automatic Transmission Fluid"

 

I love the magic home brew formulas.

 

Here is ours,  although I may experiment and toss some acetone into it.

 

While we have often pulled spark plugs and poured in some in each cylinder it is not always pistons ceased that has stopped the engine from turning over.

In which case that becomes step 1.  It can also be a cam ceased in, or a rod/crank ceased up which obviously gets into taking stuff apart.

 

Even with an engine  unseized  we  would be taking the head off to inspect what damage has taken place.

 

But here is the formula, and we often blend up 5 gallons of it and just toss ceased parts into the mixture.

 

Tim

 

Kingsbury Magic Formula for unseizing things like  engines!

 

This  will make a gallon of the formula.  If you want  5 gallons just multiply everything by 5.

 

1 Quart of ATF fluid

1 Quart of  Diesel Fuel

1 Quart of Olive Oil *note 1

1 Pint or 8 ounces of Hydraulic Fluid

1 Can (8 ounces)  Sea Foam Deep Creep * note 2

 

 

Note 1: Olive Oil – you do not want extra virgin, or virgin olive oil.  You want the cheapest grade you can find. -  Ideally either U.S refined Olive Oil or  U.S Olive Oil.

• U.S. Extra Virgin Olive Oil for oil with excellent flavor and odor and free fatty acid content of not more than 0.8 g per 100 g (0.8%);
• U.S. Virgin Olive Oil for oil with reasonably good flavor and odor and free fatty acid content of not more than 2 g per 100 g (2%);
• U.S. Virgin Olive Oil Not Fit For Human Consumption Without Further Processing is a virgin (mechanically-extracted) olive oil of poor flavor and odor, equivalent to the IOC's lampante oil;
• U.S. Olive Oil is an oil mix of both virgin and refined oils;
• U.S. Refined Olive Oil is an oil made from refined oils with some restrictions on the processing.

 

Note 2: if you can only find the spray can hammer a nail into the top of the can, watching as it is under some pressure, and let the pressure off and then pour it into your mixture.

 

Note 3:  The formula if left can separate with some of the ingredients floating as they are lighter.  Just give it a stir before using it. If we soaking ceased parts in it  we might stir it up once every few days..

[55 Fargo]

Hi Tim, excellent recipe, and have used similar without the Olive Oil, but Deep Creep, ATF and diesel I have used together.

i will try your recipe out at some point...

Now I need something that can dissolve carbon easily on carb throats, have 1 carb soaking in xylene, its not working that well,mabe lacquer thinner next.

I do not think a sonic cleaner would do it either....

[soth122003]

Hey Fargos,

 

Pick up a gallon can of Berrymans Chem dip carb cleaner at any auto parts store and let the carb soak overnight in it you'll be suprised at the out come.

 

Joe

[wayfarer]

X2 on Berrymans products

 

.

[55 Fargo]

I have heard good things about "Berrysman" carb cleaner, and some reports it did not dissolve carbon, will try it and see.

The carb is super clean, except some stubborn carbon coated deposit on the throat and choke flap

[ptwothree]

I can say that Berrymans parts dip is slightly stronger than weak tea.  That stuff USED to be a heavy duty solvent that could do serious damage to your skin if used without proper gloves.  Not in the EPA correct times we have now.  Even the carb cleaner that Wallymart used to sell, it's own brand, was pretty good stuff. It has now been denutered.

 

I have found some success using 'Oxy Clean' mixed with hot water.  It will get the carbon soft enough to use a brush to clean up the part after soaking.  Works excellent on plastic parts as well.  Cleaned up my shifter and cowl vent knobs to look like new.

 

I've tried the 50/50 atf and acetone.  I know that the acetone will evaporate and leave just the atf sitting in the oil can I use to apply it to things that are stuck.  Seems like the atf/diesel would work better from that standpoint.

[Frank Elder]