English as a second language

[DonaldSmith]

I am impressed with the international scope of these forums.  There are members in Finland, Germany, Belgium, France,  etc.  These members write the English language quite well, and are even  familiar with some of our idioms.

(Now I'm not calling us Americans idiots; idioms are peculiar figures of speech.)

 

My knowledge of other languages is quite limited, so I appreciate someone's fluency in English as a second language.  It's just that sometimes I wonder what these members make of some of the expressions, grammatical errors and misspellings that we natives crank out in these forums.     

 

Maybe one can figure out, for example, that "Wa la" is phonetic for the french "Voila", or "Look at that".  Some of the other entries may leave one stumped.

 

Then there are the backwoods expressions interjected for effect, such as "prolly"  for "probably", and shortcuts such as "lessee" for "let's see".  

 

Not to mention that the English speaking countries may have different words for parts of the car, and different expressions.  The Australians speak a form of English that is close to the mother country.  But in the United States, as Professor Harry Higgins in "My Fair Lady" commented, "they haven't spoken English in years".  

 

So it's great that we can share so much and understand each other as well as we do. 

[Mark D]

Language has always fascinated me.  I decided to learn a second language 15 years ago, and am still learning (Finnish, due to my wifes heritage and my own afinity for the culture).  I've found that the key to understanding and conversing is to know the culture as much as you can. This unlocks a piece of the mind that enables you to think in the same language you are learning.  It sounds odd, but all of my friends from Finland, Sweden, Russia and Holland have said the same thing to me.  They are inundated with american TV and at least two of them from Holland learned to speak american english this way. Our relatives in Finland that are under thirty years of age, were all taught english beginning in the third grade.  Older generations speak english but tire quickly due to the translation they are constantly doing in their heads.

 

I've got a target to be conversational in Finnish in the next five years, and then I will start with Swedish lessons.

[greg g]

Polish was spoken in my maternal grandparent's home and neighborhood.  My older cousins learned some of the language, enough to go to the neighbor hood store, bakery and butcher.  But my mother who was fluent, never stressed the language as she felt it best to be assimilated into the new culture rather than the old one. And my Grandparents were eager to learn English and get their citizenship papers as quickly as possible. In this area there was some discrimination against folks from eastern Europe. I do know a few words and phrases, mostly childish nonsense stuff and of course some expletives, and  food and drink items. 

 

I would like some day to go back to the old country, but will probably need to learn more before the trip.  Just got back from the Mediterranean area.  Amazing how may different versions of English you encounter, and how many people from countries all over Europe are in Spain, France, Italy,Montenegro, and Greece.  Our waitress in a restaurant in Florence was from Romania, She spoke Italian, English, and I heard her speaking French also to the table next to us, assuming she also spoke Romanian too. 

[wdoland]

OMG, LOL

[Ulu]

English as a Second Language (ESL) is an official state school program in California.

 

The school where my wife teaches, in an outlying town, is largely hispanic.

 

In her grade, the school has a "Spanish-model teacher", who teaches the predominately Spanish speakers, and an "English-model teacher" who teaches the predominately English speakers.

 

The funny thing is that my wife, who is Mexican and rather brown, but born here in Clovis, was never taught Spanish at home & speaks very little. She is the "English-model teacher".

 

The "Spanish-model teacher" is a pale freckle-faced Irish looking gal, whose parents spoke native English, but forced her to learn Spanish in school.

 

Funny how these things work out.  

[DonaldSmith]

My sister-in-law learned Spanish from the second grade on, in an experimental program years ago.  I guess they discovered that kids would learn Spanish that way.  So she is fluent in Spanish.  She also learned American Sign, and picked up a few other languages.  She has been an audiologist, just recently retired, putting her language skills to good use.   She is blonde, not the stereotypical Spanish or Mexican.  At one time she dyed her hair auburn before a trip to Mexico, and fit right in with the locals.    

[RobertKB]

I am fortunately bi-lingual. I was born in the UK and with English parents I, of course, speak English English. Growing up in Canada, I now speak a form of American/English English, also know as Canadian English.  Seriously, I admire anyone who can converse in two or more languages. I still have some of my high school French but that is all it is. I am by no means fluent.

 

Good luck to all of you learning a second language as it will definitely keep your brain active. Any kind of lifetime learning is a good thing!

Edited May 21, 2015 by RobertKB

[Dan Hiebert]

I still lament that my grandparents refused to teach us their native tongues, one side Finnish, the other German (as with most, being the precocious tots that my brother and I were, we did pick up some "discouraging words").  There's a little Italian back there, too, but my grandma on that side didn't speak Italian at all.  As an immigration and customs officer I find foreign cultures and languages fascinating and have had to deal with translating more languages than you can shake a stick at.  As Mark D notes, it helps immensely to think the way "they" do, rather than try to do word for word translation.  It also helps understand someone who's native language isn't English when they say something in English that is "missed in translation". 

 

To be a tad facetious, I speak several forms of English from living all across the U.S.  Fluent Spanish, and enough German to get myself in trouble.  Spanish from living on the southern border and working for Uncle Sam, German from my stint in the Army and affinity for that side of my heritage, and now I'm realizing that I will have to work on French and "New England English" to survive in Maine.....At the very least it just might keep the old noodle sharp.  That and more Moxie....   

[ggdad1951]

ich lerne Deutsch!

[Don Coatney]

I can count to 10 in Spanish. I can count to 10 in Vietnamese. End of report.

[RobertKB]

I can count to 10 in Spanish. I can count to 10 in Vietnamese. End of report.

 

Can't you count to 10 in English? Musta had a bad Grade 1 teacher.

[DonaldSmith]

See, that's what I mean!  "Musta" for "Must have".  Doncha (Don't you)  love it?  Prolly  (Probably) did it on purpose. 

[Ulu]

"Prolly" only works if you're a hipster under 25.

 

For us geezers, it's pronounced "Prob'ly".  

[Dan Hiebert]

...dontcha mean its prolly prob'ly..?

[ggdad1951]

"Prolly" only works if you're a hipster under 25.

 

For us geezers, it's pronounced "Prob'ly".  

heck I've been sayin' "prolly" for 25 years....what's that make me Dr. Who?

[greg g]

We haven't yet addressed regional usages like in Central PA I noticed they mix their tenses saying things like "His story needs told," or "the back door needs greased". and in North Carolina, " I need to carry my brother to the doctor tomorrow".  Here we have some folks who will tell you the shed is out back, but some thing behind the shed is over back.  Recently local folks have been slaughtering words ending in "o-n"  Like the city of Fulton is pronounced Fult IN, and the town of Eaton is pronounced eat IN with the accent on the IN.  And we also hear stuff like  "Dja eatchet?. No, diju? Na chet, uwanna? Shu,wheryawanna go?  Dunno, youcide. K letsgo Mickydeeze. Nah, whender ysirday. Lessdo Wendees, K?  K,lezgo.

 

Wonder what that would look like in modern thumb text messaging????

Edited May 22, 2015 by greg g

[Plymouthy Adams]

spare us the texting....the above was horrible enough...lot of people use a few 'creative' words....as long as the entire sentence or paragraph is not as such..not a biggy in my book

Edited May 22, 2015 by Plymouthy Adams

[DonaldSmith]

I'll try translating, for the second language people:

 

Dja eatchet?. No, diju? Na chet, uwanna? Shu,wheryawanna go?  Dunno, youcide. K letsgo Mickydeeze. Nah, whender ysirday. Lessdo Wendees, K?  K,lezgo.

 

Did you eat yet?  No, did you?  Not yet.  (Do you) want to?  Su(re), Where (do) you want (to) go?  (I) don't know, you (de)cide. (O)K, let's go (to) Micky D's.*   No, (we) went there yes(t)erday.  Let's do Wendy's, (O)K?  (O)K, let's go.

 

* (McDonald's; surely you've heard of it.  "I've heard of it, and don't call me Shirley".)

 

Gee, this translating is hard work!  You second language people have quite a challenge.   Per Leslie Nielsen in "Airplane", Good luck; we're all counting on you."  

[Bill Bartlett]

Now, All 'y'all are juss bein' silly.

A few years ago, my wife and I ran the Club Store for the Plymouth Owners Club. Through that, we became good friends with a Plymouth owner in Argentina. I found that it helped communication if I gave more careful thought to word choice. Orly's English is quite good, but it helped to consider that he did not think in English. He thought in Spanish and then translated.

One time, we had to communicate with a new member from Uraguay. I tried to do it using an online translator. Then, I sent copies to Orly, to ask if I did it right. He contacted the new member and straightened things out. He suggested that in the future, I ask him for help instead of trying to do it myself. My attempt at translating failed, but at least I didn't create an international incident.

[Plymouthy Adams]

languages that deal with word gender and often more than not the location of the modifiers in the sentence is what makes second languages rough...traveling in may foreign lands and talking with the locals who have learned to speak English..still use their native language syntax and makes for some strange conversations as often the sentence structure is reverse of ours..but hats off to them for their efforts...I will never slam them in their efforts as they have gone the extra mile..

[Ulu]

After reading this all, some things occurred to me.

 

First, I can never remember how many c's and r's are in a word like "occurred" so without spell checker I'd often be lost; but I will not rely on a PC to fix my grammar or idioms, and thus neither do I depend on it to translate the grammar/idioms of other languages.

 

Second, as I can barely use one language, and don't want to be guilty of slaughtering a second;  if I ever go abroad I'd better hire a translator to do any business.  

 

I know just enough French, German and Spanish to get me punched in the nose.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Ulu

[Plymouthy Adams]

In part:   

 

I know just enough French, German and Spanish to get me punched in the nose.

bet you could speak English and get the same results..someone wanting to punch you in the nose...many are ready to fight at the drop of the hat...majority will purposely drop the hat..thank you Samuel Colt...

[TodFitch]

. . . Second, as I can barely use one language, and don't want to be guilty of slaughtering a second;  if I ever go abroad I'd better hire a translator to do any business.  

 

I know just enough French, German and Spanish to get me punched in the nose.

 

I guess that explains the old joke:

 

What do you call someone who speaks three languages?

Trilingual.

 

What do you call someone who speaks two languages?

Bilingual.

 

What to you call someone who speaks one language?

American.

 

(Just spent a week in the Netherlands where all I learned was “ja”, “nee”, “alsjeblieft” & “dank u wel” so I am guilty of this as well. Fortunately everyone we met spoke English, all the signage was understandable and all the menus had English translations. Now if we could only get American banks to understand that “chip and pin” is the way to go for credit cards, but that is another topic.)

[Plymouthy Adams]

I was told in 1974 while in the Netherlands that to find a native that did not speak English would be to find a very old person who did not get out much....that guy is probably dead now....

[Ulu]

bet you could speak English and get the same results..someone wanting to punch you in the nose...many are ready to fight at the drop of the hat...majority will purposely drop the hat..thank you Samuel Colt... 

 

I could start a bar fight, anywhere in the world, with absolute silence and but a single gesture. 

 

Not that I ever do such things!  But, yes, there are a lot of troubled folks looking for someone to unload on. They're all too easily found, way too easily triggered, and literally beyond all reason in demeanor.

 

I stay out of places that tend to attract those folks, and so I rarely ever carry a weapon. That was not always the case 40 years ago, when I carried a jack knife on my hip, and a dagger in my boot.

 

But that was a far different time and place.