Electrical Blues.

[Robert Smith]

So, it's been some time since I've posted anything about the '40 Dodge D14 I've been futzing with... Here's the update.

Mid last year I had all the wiring replaced, new harnesses and all. I purchased a "rebuilt" Autolite generator off of eBay from a man who claims to have rebuilt gens for 50 years. I receive it, put it in and polarize the regulator. Well, we start it up and all is well, charging well and things are fine. Well, after a while, I start noticing a bad noise from under the hood... The generator then goes out... Then it comes back to life for a brief time. I send the original generator to a shop a friend highly recommended. It comes back rebuilt and looking like a million! I put it in, polarize the regulator and start it up. I notice the needle on the amp gauge smack over to the faaaaar right! It's totally positive but, too much. The head lights are bright as noon day (the car is still positive ground 6v mind you) and I'm not sure what that means but, I figure I'll see what happens, if it corrects it's self. I'm driving at night and then the lights go dim, I check the amp gauge... It's now over to the negative... I figured that the regulator was bad. I replaced the regulator, still no dice. I hook a voltage meter to the gen, it's not putting out anything. I pull the gen, send it back to the shop I had the work done... They call and say the armature was shot due to a bad regulator. Ok, so I replace the regulator and wait for the gen to come back... It comes and I put it in, polarize the system again and start it up... Still nothing, no charge at all.

I'm thinking the shop didn't fix the generator the second time when they say they did. :-/ This means that boat anchor has to come out again and I have to take it down to Gardena and see if they'll fix it right this time. 

[Frank Elder]

. The head lights are bright as noon day (the car is still positive ground 6v mind you) and I'm not sure what that means but, 

 

You are not sure why the head lights are over bright or about 6 volt positive ground? Please clarify.  

[TodFitch]

Not sure why you had to polarize each time... Shop that rebuilt the generator had to test it and to test it they had to polarize it. I've had generators that were on a shelf that started right up with the correct polarity without being polarized.

 

Anyway checking the generator is easy: While the engine is running ground the field terminal on the regulator. If the generator goes to full charging the generator is good. Don't leave it that way for long or you'll burn it up. If it doesn't go to full charge, then there is a problem with the generator.

 

Now that I think about it, it may not be so easy: A short or open on the field wire could give you issues with that test... But you say you've replaced the wires.

 

That "bright as noon day sun" part and the pegged ammeter tell me that, at that time, the generator was doing maximum output and likely you had either a bad regulator or shorted field wire.

 

If the generator is not charging now, do the test. It is possible that you've got another bad regulator.

Edited March 4, 2013 by TodFitch

[Don Coatney]

There is a lot I dont understand here. You paid someone to re-wire your car, and again paid (I am not sure how many people) to repair your charging system. And none of this stuff works. Now you come here looking for advice? Were it me I would contact all the people you paid to make these repairs and question them about why you paid for something that does not work. I would think the folks you paid would know a lot more about the problem than anyone here would know.

[Chuck51631]

Whenever I changed a generator I never had to polarize anything. The only time you polarize the system is when you change the regulator. I have to agree with Tod you could have another bad regulator. The regulator is like a switch, when the battery is fully charged it turns off the generator, when the battery starts to drain due to using lights, radio, heater etc. it turns back on so the generator charges the battery again.

[Dodgeb4ya]

Finding good regulators that work 100% today is tough especially if made in China sorry to say!

[Robert Smith]

Ok, I'll try and make this clear.

The car was rewired, a friend of mine did the work, I was with him every step of the way, I watched him, we both checked the schematics... I know the wiring in this car is good, I watched it being installed. The generator I bought off of eBay had a 30 day warranty, it lasted a few months. The seller didn't want to take it back and refund me. The generator I bought from eBay only had new brushes and new barrings... So, I decided to simply take the original generator that the car came with to a shop a friend recommended... They did a beautiful job, but it was giving full charge because of a bad regulator... The gen burned out. I took it out and sent it back to this shop. I got it back and after talking with the shop they said they changed the armature and fixed it. I have changed the regulator three times... I'm taking the generator to be tested today. 

 

[Don Coatney]

Whenever I changed a generator I never had to polarize anything. The only time you polarize the system is when you change the regulator. I have to agree with Tod you could have another bad regulator. The regulator is like a switch, when the battery is fully charged it turns off the generator, when the battery starts to drain due to using lights, radio, heater etc. it turns back on so the generator charges the battery again.

 

There is no plorizing the "system". The only thing there is to polorize is the generator and it is polorized at the regulator if need be. But as you and others have mentioned it is nornally not necessary to polorize the generator unless it has been connected incorrectly.

 

[suntennis]

Sounds like the voltage regulator may have been for 12 volts. When the car was started, if you had checked the generator voltage, you would be able to offer everyone more data to work with. The next step is have the rebuild folks have both generator and regulator to test. Napa should be able to supply you with a good regulator. I was told by a rebuilder that the armatures from China these days do not hold up as well as original equipment.

[Robert Smith]

Don, you're such a wealth of knowledge, and I respect that. For you I'm sure it's frustrating to read my challenges when the answer is easy for you. I know I've had problems with the cars I've had, the '46 and now the '40. But, your patience with me would be greatly appreciated. And I appreciate your last post. Thanks for that. I'm really determined to get this right, I'm having a hard time trusting shops... A friend contacted me last night and said to bring it over to his house and his father has all the equipment we need to bench test the gen and fix it and see what's causing it not to charge. Really want my hands in this as much as possible... Get dirty and learn like the masters.

 

 

[Robert Smith]

Sounds like the voltage regulator may have been for 12 volts. When the car was started, if you had checked the generator voltage, you would be able to offer everyone more data to work with. The next step is have the rebuild folks have both generator and regulator to test. Napa should be able to supply you with a good regulator. I was told by a rebuilder that the armatures from China these days do not hold up as well as original equipment.

I replaced the regulator three times, with a Standard brand 6v VR2. Same regulator I've bought for the '46.

[TodFitch]

If I recall correctly, you are located in the LA metro area. Maybe Glendale or a bit further east.

 

Call Bob Amos at Premier Auto Electric in Riverside. He has old Mopar vehicles, he is a member of the Plymouth Owners Club and his shop specializes in automotive electrical work. Not sure what he will charge you but I am confident that he can make your electrical system work the way it is supposed to.

 

I don't know his business phone but it should be in the Yellow pages.

[Robert Smith]

Thank you Tod, I do live just east of Pasadena in Monrovia.

I'll see if I can contact him, Riverside is a bit of a trek but, if all else fails, that'll be the place to check.

 

[Robert Smith]

You are not sure why the head lights are over bright or about 6 volt positive ground? Please clarify.  

When I stated the lights were brighter than the noon day sun, and mentioned that the system is 6v, I was making reference that no 6 volt system can produce lights brighter than halogen's on a new Cadillac Escalade! They were TOO bright. I know a good 6 volt system can produce bright lights but, if you saw what I was seeing, it felt like I was driving a 1940 Dodge with lights and electrical from a new BMW with their high beams on! 

[Robert Smith]

Ok, update on generator:

This morning, I received a call from my friend, he said he wasn't able to have me over this morning and check it, but I did take it to a shop to have them test it. It isn't charging and they looked at the armature and told me that it's compromised. So, Rotex in Gardena didn't repair it.

Off I go to Rotex to see what they can do to correct this.

 

[BobT-47P15]

Be sure and take one or more regulators.....whatever you have. 

[falconvan]

You sure you wouldn't just rather change this thing to 12 volt and run a standard alternator with a built in regulator, Robert? Sounds like you could have paid for the swap two or three times over by now.

[Andydodge]

Rob..........those bring lights you saw were from MY 1940 Dodge.........lol.........but its 12volt and runs an alternator........and a few other things........lol..........regards, andyd 

[ptwothree]

Rotex rebuilt a water pump and a brake booster for me.....didn't last.  They try to rebuild a lot of different components.  Find a shop that does starters, gennies and alternators.  A good one shouldn't have any trouble fixing you up with a working gen and regulator.  Finding one in the L.A. area won't be hard.....Or switch to a 6v pos grnd alternator...they're out there.

[John Reddie]

Robert,

  This could be a possibility for you. I know you have replaced several regulators but as been said, often times a good one is hard to come by now. You problem does sound like regulator. Suntennis has some good advice about taking both generator and regulator to be tested in unison. Good luck to you.

John R

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-40-41-42-46-47-48-50-CHRYSLER-Kaiser-Frazer-NASH-Packard-VOLTAGE-REGULATOR-/140925111140?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item20cfca8b64

[greg g]

I have to disagree with your take on light brightness being dependent on voltage.  Lights are rated by out put in watts or footcandles or lumens,  regardless of their input.  A 35 watt low beam should have the same performance regardless if it is powered by 3, 6, 9, 12, or 24 volts, if they are designed for that input.  Poor performance of old lamps can be most likely traced to input lower than designed for ( due to increased circuit resistance) pitted lenses, compromised reflectors, or eroded elements.  Typical tungsten elements loose material over their lifetime.  This metal dissipates due to heat and reduces the resistance of the element,lowering its output, it also deposits itself on the lens and reflector diminishing their effectiveness as well.  The benefit of Halogen lamps is that the use of the inert gas in the bulb or lamp reduces the erosion of the element and the depositing on the lens and reflector.  The optimal performance of the lamp is prolonged but 35 watts is still 35 watts.

[Alshere59]

Greg

 

I agree with your post but I think the OP was referring to his lights receiving voltage that it was not designed for due a faulty regulator. With that said I would think for it to be noticable that they would burn out. I am not sure what the maximum voltage our old generators can put out but alot of cars do run 8 volts and report better lights. I do not have any cars I have done that with so I do not know.

 

Al

[Frank Elder]

When I stated the lights were brighter than the noon day sun, and mentioned that the system is 6v, I was making reference that no 6 volt system can produce lights brighter than halogen's on a new Cadillac Escalade! They were TOO bright. I know a good 6 volt system can produce bright lights but, if you saw what I was seeing, it felt like I was driving a 1940 Dodge with lights and electrical from a new BMW with their high beams on! 

Man that genny must really have been humming!

[JerseyHarold]

I was having charging issues on my '52 and finally traced the cause to the wiring between the generator and the regulator.  I had the field wire on one component going to the armature wire on the other, and vice-versa.  You may want to check that out.

 

Harold

[Dave72dt]

I've seen first hand 6v bulbs run on 12 v.  They get really bright and then they get really dim.  new bulbs with clean lens, reflectors would probably be brighter than old bulbs.  Unusually bright bulbs would indicate abnormally high voltage.