201 - 230 swap

[BrianInPa]

I have a 1940 Plymouth 4 door sedan that I'm restoring, but would like to swap the orignal 201 for a later 230.

I found a 230 that came from a 1960 Dodge truck.

What problems am I going to encounter with this swap?

Are the motor mounts in a different location on the 230?

Any help / advice would be greatly appreciated.

Brian

[1940plymouth]

Brian,

I can't help you with your question, but sure would like to see some photos of your '40 Plymouth.

I have had my 1940 Plymouth P-10 business coupe for 22 years. Not a show car but a driver

Welcome aboard to the best forum on the internet and good luck with your Plymouth,

Bob

[Alshere59]

Not sure if it will fit but I think its a good possibility. I used a 1955 230 mated to a 1950 bell housing with a 40 overdrive bolted on to that.

The 50 Bell housing was for the rear motor/tranny mounts. The wild card may be the front mount. Look at the timing chain cover part especially. I did use the original 1950 horse shoe looking brace for the front mount to bolt to the frame. Maybe Check part numbers?

Linkage bolted right up to the tranny.

Also you will need the flywheel from the 230 as the crank has more bolts. The only thing I really ran into was the clutch rod wasn't long enough after using the 230 flywheel. Not enough adjustment. Cut it in half welded in a 1 inch piece of grade 8 bolt and it was fine.

I was putting it in a 50 Plymouth so swap enough parts and you may be in there. There are a lot of cars running industrial flat 6s etc. Ods are in your favor.

Edited December 17, 2010 by Alshere59

[claybill]

as i recall from previous talk...the castings are the same. should be an easy swap. there are however more flywheel bolts, so get the 230 flywheel.

ALSO, since the 40 has a pedal-pusher for a starter and the 230 probably uses a solenoid and a button starter...the location of the starter motor is slightly different in the bell housing casting...so get the 230 bell housing!.. consequently you will have to alter some small brackets that bolt to the housing holding the clutch arm etc,,???? i think..easy stuff, just be aware of these small things as you go. and you will definitely need the starter motor from the 230 with a 6v solenoid and button start. the 40 starter motor wont do..

as i recollect..

bill

[TodFitch]

as i recall from previous talk...the castings are the same. should be an easy swap. there are however more flywheel bolts, so get the 230 flywheel.

ALSO, since the 40 has a pedal-pusher for a starter and the 230 probably uses a solenoid and a button starter...the location of the starter motor is slightly different in the bell housing casting...so get the 230 bell housing!.. consequently you will have to alter some small brackets that bolt to the housing holding the clutch arm etc,,???? i think..easy stuff, just be aware of these small things as you go. and you will definitely need the starter motor from the 230 with a 6v solenoid and button start. the 40 starter motor wont do..

as i recollect..

bill

I've not done this so all I know is what I've read too.

That said, the 1940 starter motor is rated at 12 ft.lbs. torque and 525 amps at stall and 4900 RPM and 65 amps free running. The 1954 P25 starter has less torque and amps at stall (6 ft.lbs at 335 amps). It is about the same for free running (4300 RPM at 65 amps). So it seems the 40 starter motor would be beefy enough. The only hitch would be whether or not the teeth on the pinion match those on the flywheel.

Which then leads to the question: Can you bolt a four hole 1940 Plymouth flywheel to an eight hole 230 crank. I think that this is possible from what I've read. If not, then you could probably put a older style gear on the newer flywheel and then be able to keep the old bell housing.

So, it would seem to me that the swap would not require changing out the bell housing.

[Robert Horne]

I have a 1940 Plymouth 4 door sedan that I'm restoring, but would like to swap the orignal 201 for a later 230.

I found a 230 that came from a 1960 Dodge truck.

What problems am I going to encounter with this swap?

Are the motor mounts in a different location on the 230?

Any help / advice would be greatly appreciated.

Brian

Is the 230 engine a 23 inch block or a 25 inch block? I believe the starters from 1957 and up are different than the 56 and older. I have a 56 starter in my 36 engine.

[greg g]

Basically a bolt in. If you want to keep it 6V, just swap over the electrical stuff. The bellhousings on the trucks of the earlier era were different, not familiar with the later models. but if you have the stuff from the car it should bolt up. You may find some differences in the crank flange as most 230 were 8 bolt flywheel connection and 201 were 4 bolt but they shold bolt up as long as they are indexed properly to allign the bolt holes. You may have to swap the oil pan and the internal pick up to clear the steering.

As with any swap there may be a few items to deal with, throttle linkage, exhaust mainfold differences, but as long as both are 23 1/2 inch blocks (since you say you are in PA, I assume you have an American car and an American doner) Make sure you study things like that.

[deathbound]

"IF" the only difference between the 201 & 230 flywheel is the 4 bolts vs. 8 bolts, couldn't you just drill the other 4 holes or have a machine shop do it?

[Jim Yergin]

I have a 230 in my '41 P12 and am using the original 201 bell housing and foot pedal starter. I did have to change the ring gear on the 230 flywheel because that flywheel was a later model and had a different teeth count. The ring gear is available from Vintage Power Wagons. If I can do it you know it can't be that difficult. You cannot use the 201 flywheel with the 230 block because the offset on the 201 flywheel is different and the starter will not reach the ring gear on the 230 block.

Jim Yergin

[Young Ed]

Sounds like to use this you'll either need an older 230 flywheel or you'll have to swap your ring gear onto the 230 flywheel. Not a big deal with a torch. Little heat and they come right off. Only other thing to look at as far as I know is if the block has the provisions for a front motor mount. I think the last few years went to side mounts. Probably can reuse your 201 setup.

[Jim Yergin]

Sounds like to use this you'll either need an older 230 flywheel or you'll have to swap your ring gear onto the 230 flywheel. Not a big deal with a torch. Little heat and they come right off. Only other thing to look at as far as I know is if the block has the provisions for a front motor mount. I think the last few years went to side mounts. Probably can reuse your 201 setup.

I removed mine without any heat. Just knocked it off. I heated the replacement ring gear in an oven and then installed it.

Jim Yergin

[DJ194950]

can a 201 block be bored enough to 3.250? thats what 218 &230 are.

differences between these are the stroke lenght. pistons are same dia.

to make a 230 from a 218 require: crank(longer stroke), rods to match(diffenent lenght), flywheel (8 hole vs. 4, and weights way more. i have heard of them being called a 70 lb. flywheel.). also do not run the heavy front lower pully.they only used one without the counterbalance.

i recently compared my 218 flywheel to the 230. both where 14 &5/8 in. across widest point on ring gear and both where 146 teeth.

my 230 motor was taken out of a forklit but according to block #'s was made for a 41-47 military truck. the only change was to use the front motor mount-

chain cover plate,which is top motor mount vs. forklift has lower mount.

as long as a late motor uses same pattern on chain cover,should be no problem using your original front mount and bell housing if flywheels are the same dia.

many decades ago i put a 218 from a 50 dodge or ply. in a 37 plymouth with no problems. just used some of both.details long gone from this old brain.

starting with a 230 motor will probably be quickest and cheapest in the long run.

also, 50plymouth.com has great details on 218-230 change.

playing with old cars is fun if you take your time and read great sites like this one.

good luck

dj4950ply

49 suburban rodded 85 % done

50 4 dr. stock project

[BrianInPa]

Thanks for all of the quick feedback.

I beleive it should be a relatively simple swap from the research I've done over the past several days. I don't have the 230 in my hands just yet, but I'll be picking it in the next week.

It does have the front mount, so I'm hoping the hole spacing is the same as the original 201 motor.

From what several of you have stated, it sounds like the only big issue will be getting the right combination of bell housing / flywheel / starter.

Thanks again for all of the feedback. I'll post some photos as soon as I get started with the swap.

Brian

[Jim Saraceno]

I have a 230 from a '57 in my '35 right now. It has the 8 hole crank and as far as I can tell the front mount, bell housing, manifold, flywheel and clutch are all from a 201.

[greg g]

Make note of the thickness of the crankshaft flange. I have a 56 230 in my 46 P15. I used the flywheel from the 56 and the clutch assembly, throw out and transmission from the 46. I did not remove the flywheel from the 46 engine, But since the 56 was 12V, I swapped the 46 starter over. I was un aware that there might have bee a difference in tooth count on the ring gear, but in my case it isn't ot an issue. It would be a good idea to assure compatability with the later engine. I guese it would become a on issue should you decide to convert the car to 12V and use the later gen and starter. Some of the engines had different outlet positions on the exhaust manifold, so you need ot make a note of whether that difference is a factor with your swap. If you use the later manifold you may need to address the downstream exhaust plumbing to deal with the difference in location.

A differece I have noted on my swap was the position of the feet on the front motor mount in that on one assembly they faced towad the radiator and the other faced rear, but I can't remember which was which. I just swapped on which ever was needed for fitment to the crossmenber.

You may also need to address the front pulley/vibration damper, if the engines are not equiped the same. Some had them and some did not.

One other thing I encountered was the spacers between the water pump and the fan. I installed what I took off the 46 engine. It fits but I have very scant clearence between the fan blades ad the radiator. I think there might be a difference i the water pumps. the one on the 56 engine was siezed so i used the one from the 46. As noted it fits but had I not installed the spacers (2) the clearence would be larger.

[Robert Horne]

I have a 230 from a '57 in my '35 right now. It has the 8 hole crank and as far as I can tell the front mount, bell housing, manifold, flywheel and clutch are all from a 201.

Jim, what starter are you using? My 56 engine had a 54 starter when I got the engine. I used the 54 starter in my 36 engine, and later found a 56 starter to put in the 36 engine. I read that the 57 and up starters are different, in the depth of starter gear to flywheel.

[Jim Saraceno]

I'm pretty sure the starter is from a '35.

[Plymouthy Adams]

looks to be, am pretty sure...these are not good catch phrases when it comes time to do any repairs in the future..this type of work and modifications needs documented and as a note to those that do make changes, please get a notebook for this purpose..it will save you headaches when it comes time to exact repairs to these mods and prevent a game of junkyard roulette..and FURTHER..if you do sell the car in the future the book of parts sources and numbers should be in teh glovebox..

[Don Coatney]

I have installed a 1953 Desoto long block engine in my 1948 P-15. The crankshaft on this Desoto engine is 8 bolt. I used my 4 bolt P-15 flywheel and bellhousing. The 4 bolt flywheel will mate to the 8 bolt crankshaft only one way as the bolt holes are not symetrical. And as has been mentioned there is a flange difference on the Desoto crankshaft. I did a complete on the bench mock up prior to final assembly and I discovered that the starter gear would not mate up to the flywheel correctly due to the flywheel flange difference. So my fix was to machine some "meat" from bellhousing where the starter bolts on. I took careful measurements prior to doing this. I am using a 1956 twelve volt starter (kindly supplied by Greg G) and the bendix gear on this starter mates to my P-15 ring gear with no issues.

[TodFitch]

looks to be, am pretty sure...these are not good catch phrases when it comes time to do any repairs in the future..this type of work and modifications needs documented and as a note to those that do make changes, please get a notebook for this purpose..it will save you headaches when it comes time to exact repairs to these mods and prevent a game of junkyard roulette..and FURTHER..if you do sell the car in the future the book of parts sources and numbers should be in teh glovebox..

Hear! Hear! Having once had a vehicle where some PO had swapped engines but left no documentation, I am of the opinion that a vehicle that has stock mechanicals is the way to go. Guessing and futzing about trying to figure out what the heck is on the car to fix it is no fun. There are no books to help and unless you run into a counter man that can look at the old part and immediately identify the year, make and model it came from you are on your own.

[wayfarer]

Brian, I'll offer my 2¢ on the bell/flywheel concerns.

There are some differences found in the thickness of the crank flanges of various engines so you need to check the distance from the face of the block to the face of the flange and compare the two. This will affect the starter to ring gear engagement only when you start mixing and matching parts.

If the two engines are the same, or very close, then you are good to go with all of your 201 parts.

The other difference can be the 4 vs 6 vs 8 bolts. If you car operates ok with 4 bolts why is there a need to add more? All three patterns are based on the same bolt circle and all have the same hole arrangement so it is possible to add the additional holes to your flywheel but recall that these are precision holes and should not be done in the 'ol drill press.

If the measured flange offset differs greatly then is the time to sort out the options.

.

[Jim Saraceno]

looks to be, am pretty sure...these are not good catch phrases when it comes time to do any repairs in the future..this type of work and modifications needs documented and as a note to those that do make changes, please get a notebook for this purpose..it will save you headaches when it comes time to exact repairs to these mods and prevent a game of junkyard roulette..and FURTHER..if you do sell the car in the future the book of parts sources and numbers should be in teh glovebox..

Good idea. At one time I had recorded all the parts numbers of anything I took apart on the car, looked them up and recorded what year they were from. It was all on a file on the computer that was lost in a computer crash hence the "pretty sure" rather than for sure.

Had I had it in a notebook, I'd probably still have that info. But then again, the way a misplace things and lose things maybe not.

[Plymouthy Adams]

its funny how we take the computer for granted and even with that forget to back things up on a disc..I have one printed copy of my 51 wagon build on paper..there is a copy on three different computers and backed up on two thumb drives....short of an A-bomb I should be ok..

once the car is on the road the printed copy will be placed in the glove box with the other documents pertaining to the operation of the car..

[bbuswell]

I have a 230 from a 1950 Dodge fluid drive in my 39 P7 (201). I'm using the 39 4-bolt flywheel, bellhousing, foot starter, clutch linkage, throw out and made no modifications. The 230 has the 8-bolt crank flange. Apparently I'm getting enough reach for the starter to engange as I've never had a problem turning it over. One thing that got me was the smaller pilot bushing used by fluid drives.

[BrianInPa]

bbusswell,

Thanks for the info. That's exactly what I'm hoping to do with my '40.

Which transmission are you using?

Brian