OT It's been freezing in Sunny California

[Reg Evans]

Lots of low temperature records have been broken here in Northern California since last Monday morning. The weather man predicted that it would drop down to 19 degrees F Sunday night and he was right on. When I am aware that the temps are going to drop down around 28 or lower I always turn on an outside hose bib and let it run over night to keep my well water system from freezing up. This time it didn't work and we have been without water since then. All my pipes exposed to the elements are encased in those foam rubber insulating tubes but they still froze up.

Yesterday it finally warmed up (36F) enough for me to discover the broken 1" PVC pipe coming out of the top of the well that is located 600' down the hill away from the house. I cut out the broken parts and replaced them and used PVC primer and glue like I always have. The problem is it was still so damn cold that the glue would not set up enough to hold the max. 60 psi that the well pump produces. Even after waiting 1.5 hours for the glue to set up.

Here are my questions.

What sort of insulation do you guys use on exposed pipes where it really gets cold ? NOTE: There is no power down there to run some heat tape to prevent this in the future.

AND more importantly for now anyway.

Is there some kind of PVC glue that works better or faster in cold weather?

HELP........I really need a shower !!!!!! This Global Warming is killin me.

Sorry about the 2nd photo......can't seem to delete it.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Reg Evans

[T120]

Hi Reg,Might not be readily available at a hardware store near you ,but heat tape is commonly used to protect water lines from freezing. Ralph

[Norm's Coupe]

Well.......I was going to suggest heat tape, but.......you already answered that. Here in Wisconsin the pipes are all buried at least 6 feet into the ground, until they come into the building. Most of those are also going into basements. For example my basement is 11 feet deep. The water pipe is coming up through the basement floor, so that pipe is at least 12 feet down in the ground.

By the way, it was 0 degrees here this morning, with an expected high of only about 10 degrees for the day.

Sorry, don't know of any glue that will set up in that temperature. There are epoxies used for inside freezers though. Maybe check around locally and see if you can find something like that.

[pflaming]

In the midwest we put the pipes six feet down, sometimes when that wasn't possible we would put a square hay bale over the area for the winter, great insultation and then we fed it in the spring. Hay and straw are great insultators; a hay mow/barn was always worm, thus the song "Turkey in the straw". Lots of definitions for ":DTurkey".

[TodFitch]

Maybe you could rig a tent/tarp over the area with the broken pipe and put a portable heater in there to warm up to the point where glue will cure.

Wasn't sure about the anti-freeze in my solar hot water system, so ended up changing the controller settings to circulate the fluid when the collector temperature dropped near freezing. Seems to have kept the system from freezing. But its gotten a lot cooler at your place than down here by the bay.

The good news with this weather is that all the "local" (i.e. Sierra) ski areas are now open or are opening this weekend.

[Norm's Coupe]

Reg,

It's been so long since I've had anyone do this, I almost forgot.

Years ago before we came out with epoxy flooring materials that would cure at 0 or below degrees, we use to use just regular flooring material in freezers and coolers. But.......In order to do that the customer would have to build a tent inside the freezer and put a heater in it, to warm it up. So.........If you can build a small tent over that connection, put some type of heater in it to keep it warm until the glue set up, your regular glue may work for you.

[greg g]

Insulation only realy works to keep heat or cold from transfering from one area to another. With what you are working with I doubt that there would be sufficient insulation to deal with the situation. Groud temp is usually about 55 degrees give or take a couple. Heat always wants to go to cold so when the temp gets that cold especially with minimal/no flow you would need probably need 6 to 8 inchas of insulation to keep it from freezing up. So I doubt that you can get that foam stuff that thick.

Can you get a protable heat source down there (maybe even a propane torch) to get the glue to set. Then maybe a small gen set and heat tape to thaw the pipe enough to reestablish flow??

Wonder if you could wrap the pipe in fiberglass insulation and then cover that with something like the plastic vapro barrier? Or maybe some round heat duct and then fill that with the expanding foam? The hay bale idea isn't such a bad deal if you fould rig it. The bales themselves do generate a bit of heat through mirobial growth and decomp, much like a compost pile generates heat.

In the meantime go to the nearest truck stop to get your shower.

I am looking at 32 degrees and grass here in the snowiest city in the east.

[JoelOkie]

In the midwest we put the pipes six feet down, sometimes when that wasn't possible we would put a square hay bale over the area for the winter, great insultation and then we fed it in the spring. Hay and straw are great insultators; a hay mow/barn was always worm, thus the song "Turkey in the straw". Lots of definitions for ":DTurkey".

I have a place or two I run water pipe that because of the rock I can't bury, so I cover it with straw, or hay. As the hay decomposes it makes it's own heat, so that helps also. We do have sustained hard freezes here in Oklahoma, and are having one right now, my thermometer had 4 degrees F when i got up this morning, and although our house is very warm from wood heat, I leave the water running in the utility sink just in case.

I don't know that I can think of one thing that might help above ground lines that are so distant you can't get electric heat tape on, other than if they were insulated with glass pack covered with plastic and you also left it running it might work better. As for the glue, I am assuming you aren't close enough to use a heat gun or blow dryer, so you might put some indirect heat around close as you can (without igniting the glue) with a propane torch to get your glue to set. Good luck, as I having and maintaining my own well I know too well what it's like to be without water. Joel

I see Greg beat me to it, but looks like we are on the same page with most of it. I would just add that if you use black plastic to wrap a pipe you might even catch a small amount of solar heat on days when it's cold but the sun is still shining. As the plastic is on the outside of the insulation I don't know that it would be significant, but as easy to put on as any other color.

Edited December 10, 2009 by JoelOkie

[pflaming]

I remember back in the '50's that Dad and others would put a good pile of manure (mixed with hay) over the wells. They were careful to assure nothing went down the pipe. If I recall they manure pile would be about 3 feet high. It GENERATES heat, very effective. Once it seals over, there is not oder.

[JoelOkie]

I remember back in the '50's that Dad and others would put a good pile of manure (mixed with hay) over the wells. They were careful to assure nothing went down the pipe. If I recall they manure pile would be about 3 feet high. It GENERATES heat, very effective. Once it seals over, there is not oder.

Yes, I also know from experience that a hay and manure pile will get so hot it will burn you. I have had a layer of hay covered in black plastic that puts off steam on a cold morning. Maybe you can get some hay and put black tarps over the top. Joel

[greg g]

Reg I used to use a couple of trouble light with 100 watt light bulbs, under my car hoods when I knew it was gonna get real cold here (minus numbers) one near the battery and one near the carb or fuel pump. In the AM you could tell that they were working because there would be 2 circles about 2 ft across where any snow was melted off the hood above the lamps. So if you have a genny or a looooooon extension cord, a plastic tent or a tarp over the area with a couple hundred watters will probably thaw the area in pretty short order.

The only problem with stacking hay bails it that the warmth they geerate will draw local rodents to set up house keeping, and they like to chew on plastic and insulation and such. But for the short haul, stacking up some bales tarping the assemblage, and a couple of light bulbs is probably the best way to deal with it if you can get power to the site. Howabout a couple deep cycle batteries connected in parallel and a cheapo inverter connected to the bulbs if you don't have a genny.

[Dennis Hemingway]

I put the thickest pipe wrap insulation I could find over the pipes from the well to the holding tanks and then into the ground. I then put a 100 w trouble light by the pipes and covered it all with a heavy duty tarp. The temp here this morning was 20 when I got up.

Dennis:cool:

[Reg Evans]

Yeah, I think I can come off one side of the 220 volts that is powering the well for a 110 connection and then hook up a heat lamp. The well head has always just been exposed to the weather so I'll have to build a little dog house too to retain the heat and give me a place to install a light fixture.

It's never been this cold here on this property in the 12 years that I have lived here.

The freeze even cracked the heavy brass back-flow preventer at the top of the well.

It's warmer today so maybe I can get this fixed before the next round.

:rolleyes:Thanks Mr. Gore for your promise of a warmer climate.

[greg g]

Sounds like a plan Stan!!!! If it were me, I would put a breaker box off the the 110 you pull and maybe a work box with two outlets, one for the light, the other for what ever tool you might need in the future. As noted some straw bales a piece of osb for a roof and a trap to keep it dry, will get you started till a more permanent structure can be errected in better weather.

[pflaming]

Get on old electric blanket, that and a hay bale should go a long way.

[Frank Elder]

One sawzall, 2 hose clamps and a rubber union for one inch pipe. Or some heater hose?

Then when it warms up enough you can glue it.

[Reg Evans]

The pipes that broke include a 90 degree bend,2' of pipe at each end and a solid brass back-flow preventer. I just got finished replacing it all and ran a propane heater facing it for and hour to set the glue. The glue held and I'm headed for the shower. No more bird baths for me.

I stuffed some old foam mattresses around it and covered that with a tarp for now.

The Norwegian Rats will have another comfy home until I can set up a Decon banquet for them.

Thanks for all the great advice and for letting me vent here !!!!!

[JoelOkie]

:rolleyes:Thanks Mr. Gore for your promise of a warmer climate.

Now please...please....it's not like Mr. Gore has made millions of dollars on that global warming thing or anything like that. Glad you have the water back on, and hope it warms up for you there soon.

Edited December 11, 2009 by JoelOkie
spelking

[Don Coatney]

Best thing about the internet is we all do not know nor care if you need a shower:D

GOOD LUCK on your heat source to cure your glue!

[Norm's Coupe]

Reg,

Glad to hear you got your pipe fixed. I do have a question for you guys having water pipes running in the open above ground though, especially those running for a long distance. Winter is no problem I guess as long as you keep the pipe from freezing. But.........what do you do in the summer for "cold" water. Especially one running 600 feet above ground like Reg said his does. Seems like on a real hot day, you would have no cool water to drink, as it would heat up inside the pipe.

Now, I know you can put ice in the glass of water. But.........I just take mine straight out of the tap regardless of outside temperature and it's nice and cool.

[Dennis Hemingway]

We learn to let the water run for before we fill our glass. During the summer we don't need to use the water heater.

Dennis:eek:

[RobertKB]

It doesn't matter if the water is warm or cold, it all reaches your stomach at the same temperature and will rehydrate your body.

Reg, try the minus -39C we just had (-40 is the same in Farenheit and Celsius). We also had about the same amount of snow you had with a strong north wind blowing making for blizzard conditions. Fortunately, no frozen pipes as everything is well inside the walls of our houses or buried 8 feet underground. Only things that goes outside are the taps for watering in the summer and we shut those off once cold weather arrives. Good luck with staying warm, having water, and the personal hygiene issue.

[Reg Evans]

Reg' date='

Glad to hear you got your pipe fixed. I do have a question for you guys having water pipes running in the open above ground though, especially those running for a long distance. Winter is no problem I guess as long as you keep the pipe from freezing. But.........what do you do in the summer for "cold" water. Especially one running 600 feet above ground like Reg said his does. Seems like on a real hot day, you would have no cool water to drink, as it would heat up inside the pipe.

Now, I know you can put ice in the glass of water. But.........I just take mine straight out of the tap regardless of outside temperature and it's nice and cool.[/quote']

No Norm, I said my well is 600' from my house. The only part that is above ground is where it comes out of the top of the well head and travels above ground over the 4' x 6' concrete slab and then dives into the ground to a depth of about 2' and runs under ground until it reached the house and comes up right next to the foundation and enters the wall of the house.

[Dodgeb4ya]

The problem here is I have to keep all the brewski's in the fridge. Cannot leave any out in the unheated garage or they will freeze up. 10 degree's this am. Thats really cold for around here- the outskirts of the Seattle area.

[JIPJOBXX]

Just thought you might like a little Washington weather for a short while!!!