...back off piston by turning engine with fan.

[DonaldSmith]

Yah, right.   Can everyone else do this? 

I took out the Pertronix ignitor and re-installed the points.   I tried firing up the engine, but got a backfire at the carb.   Time to reset the timing. 

 

Crank the engine with the thumb hole over No. 1,.  TDC for Piston No. 1, but the engine moved way past TDC.  I'll back it off and then go past TDC to 4 degrees advance, as recommended somewhere for our modern gas. 

 

I was never able to turn this engine by the fan.  Today I backed off my power steering belt (another story in itself) and tightened the fan belt, to now avail.   I'll do what I've done in the past - remove the screen at the bottom right of the bell housing and pry against the flywheel teeth.   Move teeth up, to back up the engine, move teeth down to advance it.   Then the test light for when the points open.  (Points open, coil fires.)  What could be simpler?

 

(Screen off bell housing.  Upper right is front of car.)

 

 

What's this square at the lower right? ?  An access cover, or just a bump in the casting?  Would that be closer to the flywheel teeth?

(The screen opening is out of the picture, below the  ridge.)  

 

 

 

 

[maok]

If you pulled the spark plugs out then turn the engine via the fan it will be much easier.

[Hickory]

That would be the best way. I've also used the nut on the generator.

[kencombs]

Plugs out is best.  But in any case, try pressing on the slack side of the belt (between water pump and gen to turn CW, crank pulley to WP. when CCW)  while turning fan.

 

Helps a lot.

[DonaldSmith]

Yes the plugs are out!   Nut on the generator(alternator)?   That relies on adequate friction between the fan belt and the crankshaft pulley.  I tightened the fan belt.  Should it be super-tight? 

[kencombs]

2 hours ago, DonaldSmith said:

Yes the plugs are out!   Nut on the generator(alternator)?   That relies on adequate friction between the fan belt and the crankshaft pulley.  I tightened the fan belt.  Should it be super-tight? 

Did you try pressure on the slack side of the belt?   Helps a lot more than tightening the belt.

[Kilgore47]

Take the inspection plate off under the bell housing.  You can get to the fly wheel from there.  But holding pressure on the slack side of the belt has always worked for me.

[DonaldSmith]

This morning, I loosened the belt for power steering pump that I added, just to eliminate it as problem, to "rule it out".  I pushed a hammer handle against the fan belt, so that the fan did not slip.  I pushed and pulled hard on the fan, but no movement of the crankshaft. 

 

Tell me that I am not a wimp, and that someone else in he world cannot turn the crankshaft by the fan belt, with the plugs out, of course. 

 

Thanks, Kilgore47.  I'll take a look at the inspection plate.  It may be easier to get at and remove, rather than the screen that I have removed in the past, for access to the flywheel teeth.

 

Stay tuned. 

[vintage6t]

Sorry if this is obvious or I'm not following correctly, but are you able to move it with the fan belt in its normal direction of rotation, instead of reverse?  If so then why not crank until the start or mid of the #1 compression cycle and then just move it forward by hand up to 4 degrees advance?

 

Another thought is that something in the drivetrain is dragging a bit, even in neutral. Try having someone depress the clutch and then try rotating the engine like that.

Edited May 4, 2023 by vintage6t

[DonaldSmith]

No go in either direction.  

 

I have the car jacked up.  There is no obvious inspection cover on the bottom of the bell housing, as there may be with a stick shift.  The bell housing for the fluid coupling is a monster. There are brackets from the engine block to the bottom of the bell housing.  Removal of the bottom of the bell housing, as for accessing the clutch, would be a process.  (I vaguely remember doing it.)  I have the screen out at the bottom right of the bell housing and I'm about to pry the flywheel, up first, to back up past TDC, and then down, to get it where I want.   

 

But first, another break.  The unwritten but time consuming part of most procedures is the preparation.  Get the jack, jack up the car, get the stool out of the loft for reaching over the fender to see the timing marks, find the missing tool, and so forth.  I'm too old for this (scatological expletive).        

[Semmerling]

So I'm going to try to help here. Perhaps like others, I'm not quite sure what this thread is about. At first I thought it was a discussion about why you couldn't rotate your engine by turning your fan and even there I can't figure out whether it's always been that way or it's a new phenomenon. Then I began to believe it may about the failure of another Pertronix unit and the impact of swapping back in points.... whether in doing that and timing it properly at the oil pump, you may have created a mechanical bind problem. Then there was the part about what constitutes top dead center and how we can't be sure that the distributor cap is pointing to either cylinder one or Cylinder 6 as it is now newly installed. And then there was a discussion about a late 40s automatic transmission as potentially being the culprit. I don't know which is more concerning, you having to go through this, or me not really being able to help you in any way. Having said that, I'm going to try.

 

1st....

 

Is your car in neutral? If you jack up the rear wheels do they turn or are they locked in gear? If  Yes we move on, if no that's that's where you need to start.

 

[DonaldSmith]

Final Report:  I got the timing pointer at 2 degrees BTDC.  I wanted 4, but this should be good enough. 

 

For the record, this is fluid drive.  Tried the fan belt trick with the wife pushing the clutch in.  Did she shift in into power range?  Tied the belt trick with the car in neutral. 

The fan belt trick doesn't work for me.  We may never understand  the problem. 

 

I was able to back off the crankshaft at the screen opening in the bell housing, but the geometry would not let me move the crankshaft forward.  The manual insisted on moving forward after moving backward - to take up the backlash?  Enough under the car.

 

Finally, I cranked with the remote starter.  Quick tunks of the remote button.  Very careful to take one full revolution before tunking toward the timing marks.  (I don't want to get 180 degrees off, do I.)  I tunked past the desired 4 degrees BTDC, to 2 degrees.  "Good enough for gummint work." 

 

Next, find my test light, and adjust the distributor to open points.  Then see if it will start.   Are we having fun yet?

 

Thanks, guys, for your input. 

 

[vintage6t]

22 minutes ago, DonaldSmith said:

to take up the backlash?

Backlash of the timing chain.

[Sniper]

Well, I can turn the engine over with the fan, back when it had a mechanical fan, with the plugs in.  But I only have 50 psi compression pressure.

 

Only thing I can think is that you do not have it in neutral?

[DonaldSmith]

Neutral, clutch in, fluid coupling.  It doesn't matter now. 

Maybe when I get to heaven (so I hope), the old mechanic will tell me what it was that made the engine near impossible to turn with the fan.  

[Sniper]

Maybe it's time to crack open that can of spinach.

 

Though I have always wondered why, if Popeye was strong enough to squeeze a tin can open, he needed spinach?

[Kilgore47]

And now this discussion is about spinach  

[Semmerling]

Scratch this one off the list......

 

1. Leaving the transmission in gear with the engine off does not lock the rear wheels. A fluid coupling car left in gear with the engine off will roll just as if it were left in neutral. Therefore, maintaining the emergency/parking brake is paramount, and care should be taken when parking the car when anything but absolutely level road conditions are encountered.

[Sam Buchanan]

I hate spinach........

[Plymouthy Adams]

1 hour ago, Sniper said:

Maybe it's time to crack open that can of spinach.

 

Though I have always wondered why, if Popeye was strong enough to squeeze a tin can open, he needed spinach?

along the same lines of firing 6 shots into Superman's chest but yet somehow throwing the gun at him was going do him harm...?

[Sniper]

3 hours ago, Sam Buchanan said:

I hate spinach........

 

Take it easy Bluto, lol.

[DonaldSmith]

But all seriousness aside...

 

I timed the dizzy to make the light go out, and tightened the major adjustment bolt.  

 

Then thought I just might pull the cap and check the rotor - one hundred and eighty degrees off. 

 

Back to the remote starter, to tunk around to the right mark.  Oops, too far, go around again.  On the mark.  Rotor pointing to 7:00.

 

On-line tip for cleaning the sooty plugs - brake cleaner and then torching the residue.  Too much fussing.  Buy new plugs.   

[vintage6t]

1 hour ago, DonaldSmith said:

On-line tip for cleaning the sooty plugs - brake cleaner and then torching the residue.  Too much fussing.

 

Not only too much fussing but a possible health risk if your brake cleaner contains Tetrachloroethylene. This mostly an issue when mig/tig welding metal cleaned with brake cleaner but according to the SDS there is still some risk from lighting it on fire. As you say buy new or get a pneumatic spark plug cleaner.

 

The Safety Data Sheet (SDS) for a can of brake cleaner reads:

“Do not use this product near open flames, welding operations, or excessive heat. Vapors may decompose to harmful or fatal corrosive gases such as hydrogen chloride and possibly phosgene.”

 

This can be debilitating or even deadly to the welder or those around him or her. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), phosgene is an industrial chemical used to make plastics and pesticides. It does not occur naturally and was used extensively in World War I as a choking agent. It is poisonous at room temperature and can cause coughing, burning in the throat and eyes, blurred vision, shortness of breath, nausea, vomiting, and pulmonary edema. Some of the more serious effects can show up 48 hours after exposure, and those include difficulty breathing, low blood pressure, and heart failure. Chronic bronchitis and emphysema are reported permanent side effects of phosgene exposure. In other words, if it doesn’t kill you, it’s going to alter your health significantly.

[oldodge41]

27 minutes ago, vintage6t said:

 

Not only too much fussing but a possible health risk if your brake cleaner contains Tetrachloroethylene. This mostly an issue when mig/tig welding metal cleaned with brake cleaner but according to the SDS there is still some risk from lighting it on fire. As you say buy new or get a pneumatic spark plug cleaner.

 

The Safety Data Sheet (SDS) for a can of brake cleaner reads:

“Do not use this product near open flames, welding operations, or excessive heat. Vapors may decompose to harmful or fatal corrosive gases such as hydrogen chloride and possibly phosgene.”

 

This can be debilitating or even deadly to the welder or those around him or her. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), phosgene is an industrial chemical used to make plastics and pesticides. It does not occur naturally and was used extensively in World War I as a choking agent. It is poisonous at room temperature and can cause coughing, burning in the throat and eyes, blurred vision, shortness of breath, nausea, vomiting, and pulmonary edema. Some of the more serious effects can show up 48 hours after exposure, and those include difficulty breathing, low blood pressure, and heart failure. Chronic bronchitis and emphysema are reported permanent side effects of phosgene exposure. In other words, if it doesn’t kill you, it’s going to alter your health significantly.

Thanks for the reminder! I have read about this danger before and we actually had a toolbox talk about it at work some years ago.

[maok]

Just use a wire brush to clean the plugs.